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Posted: 9/15/2005 7:59:31 AM EDT
I used to be ANTI Wolf Ammo. I have posted here quite a few times on how I hated it and it was the worst stuff ever... these threads became bashfests and you had the PRO Wolf Amoom guys versus the ANTI Wolf guys... Well, under recommendations of other ARFCOMERS I decided to try the new Polymer Stuff and see... MUCH better than the old laquered stuff. Yet, the war of Pro Wolf and anti Wolf continues.

Well I E Mailed Bushmaster and Springfield Armory on their positions and this was their take on it. Interesting responses:


BUSHMASTER WROTE:
"There should be no problems using the newer Wolf ammunition with the gray polymer coating in our chrome lined barrels. I would avoid the older Wolf ammunition with the green lacquer coating as the lacquer can build up in the chamber causing feed and extraction problems.
I do not recommend using steel cased ammunition in our non chrome lined barrels as the chamber can be come scratched.
The Wolf ammunition is a little under powered and dirtier than other ammunition but it is good plinking ammunition.
Thank you,
Jim Eden, Tech Support"




SPRINGFIELD ARMORY WROTE:
We have not had good results.



Thanks,



Brandy

Customer Service Department



I thought these were interesting. Not to start a flame war but just to give food for thought.


Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:03:10 AM EDT
the wolf polls on arfcom have bled over to the mfg's
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:03:32 AM EDT
I have never had problems with Wolf. They do seem to build up a little more of the sealant in the extractor than other ammo, but that's the only "problem" I've had.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:06:36 AM EDT
What Springfield Armory gun are you shooting it in?

I shoot tons of wolf through my SA 1911's.

No problems whatsoever.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:08:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:14:54 AM EDT
All this verifies is that even gun manufacturers can have opinions that are totally wrong.

The old "laquer" has nothing to do with "coating the chamber". The new "polymer" coating is okay, but not really any improvement.

The dirty chamber is not caused by the laquer or lack thereof.

Please see this thread: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=246820

Wolf is dirty, but if you clean your guns, it is just fine.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:43:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
All this verifies is that even gun manufacturers can have opinions that are totally wrong.

The old "laquer" has nothing to do with "coating the chamber". The new "polymer" coating is okay, but not really any improvement.

The dirty chamber is not caused by the laquer or lack thereof.

Please see this thread: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=246820

Wolf is dirty, but if you clean your guns, it is just fine.



Well I have noticed a big difference between the laquer Wolf and the Polymer... It is now easier to clean the rilfe now than before and it is not as "gunky" as the old stuff. I have not changed solvents, just the ammo. I dont know why NOR do I have an answer other than it must be that new coating. YMMV

Your statement: "Wolf is dirty, but if you clean your guns, it is just fine." Is so true. I 100% agree

My only concern was that it would harm the firearm. If the manufacturer says its OK then... HEY! Im happy with that.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:43:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
What Springfield Armory gun are you shooting it in?

I shoot tons of wolf through my SA 1911's.

No problems whatsoever.



I havent shot it through my 1911 yet.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:48:13 AM EDT
Tag for Fedgunner's range report.

Link to follow.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:50:17 AM EDT
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=28&t=206183

Fedgunner works for Federal Cartridge/ATK as an ammo tester, FYI.

This info can be found in the Ammo-Oracle as well.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:54:55 AM EDT
I tried the new polymer stuff in my AR. Only fired 150 rounds or so, but I had no problems. I will be buying more.

I've used Wolf for 9mm and 7.62x39 ammo for quite a while and only ever had one problem. I had one 9mm round that didn't chamber properly because the case length was out of spec. Chunked it and kept going. No other problems. I wouldn't use it as defensive pistol ammo unless it was all I had, but for range ammo, it's fine. I DO use it as defensive ammo in my SAR-1.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:56:01 AM EDT
I have two 1911s, a S.A. and a Kimber. Both like it real well and for me it has been more accurate than Win. white box.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 8:57:46 AM EDT
I've shot about a case through my Bushmaster AR without a hitch. I do notice red-primer sealant caked around the extractor rim and bolt....but it just wipes clean with oil. I also do a very close inspection of the chamber but I've NEVER seen any residue of laquer.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:10:00 AM EDT
I hate to break the news but i think this has more to do wiith the picky M-16 type rifle and the Wolf .223 jamming it. I've heard no real complaints about Wolf reguarding any other cartridge or gun. my Ak never had a jam after 3000 rounds of Wolf. Nor my 9mm. Besides I've seen Old mil-surp ammo lacquered in the same way for 8mm mausers and 7.62 nato, it is an acceptable way to create mil spec ammo. It's the same problem the M-16 has had since Vietnam.
it is finicky about the ammo it's fed, even more so with full auto! and that damn 5.56mm case is just too straight! If was more bottlenecked or slanted from the rim to the crimp pulling it out would'nt be a problem. You wanna talk crap? I bought Barnaul silver bear HP in 9mm. Total joke! I thought it was made in Somalia by some junk yard owner.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:11:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:16:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 9:16:59 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
I love Wolf for plinking.

1000 more rounds will be showing up on my doorstep tommorow.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:20:13 AM EDT
My only hardcore jam was with Wolf ammo. One shell got stuck going into the chamber, the chamber wouldn't close, and I couldn't get it back out either. Rifle was out of commision until I got it home and I could tap it out with a brass rod from the muzzle side. I don't think it was laquer build up because I hadn't shot too many rounds, possibly some foreign matter got into the chamber or the case was out of round. I didn't do a post mortem, I was just happy to get the round out without blowing my hand off.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:25:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I hate to break the news but i think this has more to do wiith the picky M-16 type rifle and the Wolf .223 jamming it. I've heard no real complaints about Wolf reguarding any other cartridge or gun. my Ak never had a jam after 3000 rounds of Wolf. Nor my 9mm. Besides I've seen Old mil-surp ammo lacquered in the same way for 8mm mausers and 7.62 nato, it is an acceptable way to create mil spec ammo. It's the same problem the M-16 has had since Vietnam.
it is finicky about the ammo it's fed, even more so with full auto! and that damn 5.56mm case is just too straight! If was more bottlenecked or slanted from the rim to the crimp pulling it out would'nt be a problem. You wanna talk crap? I bought Barnaul silver bear HP in 9mm. Total joke! I thought it was made in Somalia by some junk yard owner.



Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:32:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 9:33:57 AM EDT by SWIRE]

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
My only hardcore jam was with Wolf ammo. One shell got stuck going into the chamber, the chamber wouldn't close, and I couldn't get it back out either. Rifle was out of commision until I got it home and I could tap it out with a brass rod from the muzzle side. I don't think it was laquer build up because I hadn't shot too many rounds, possibly some foreign matter got into the chamber or the case was out of round. I didn't do a post mortem, I was just happy to get the round out without blowing my hand off.




There is nothing like having to take a hammer to your $1,000 rifle to make you rethink saving a couple pennies on cheap ammo. I had the exact same experience using Wolf in my AR. Mine didn't tap out either it required several hard blows to get the stuck case out. Never again! I gave the rest of the ammo away.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:34:44 AM EDT
I only use it in 7.62 x39mm and 5.45 x 39mm only. I reload all my other calibers.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:39:53 AM EDT
My .223 AK seems happy eating everything I've fed it, from Wolf to XM193. Love that rifle.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
My only hardcore jam was with Wolf ammo. One shell got stuck going into the chamber, the chamber wouldn't close, and I couldn't get it back out either. Rifle was out of commision until I got it home and I could tap it out with a brass rod from the muzzle side. I don't think it was laquer build up because I hadn't shot too many rounds, possibly some foreign matter got into the chamber or the case was out of round. I didn't do a post mortem, I was just happy to get the round out without blowing my hand off.




There is nothing like having to take a hammer to your $1,000 rifle to make you rethink saving a couple pennies on cheap ammo. I had the exact same experience using Wolf in my AR. Mine didn't tap out either it required several hard blows to get the stuck case out. Never again! I gave the rest of the ammo away.

it is more than a couple pennies. It is more like $80 a case difference. Which is enough to replace the barrel after only a few cases. IMO it is worth it, not to mention I have put 1000s of rounds through my ARs with no problems
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:43:10 AM EDT
You picked two companies that have nothing to do with one another other than that they make firearms. Bushmaster making Ar 15s have had good luck with a design that as been altered over the years to shoot all different types of ammo.

Springfield makes the the M1a or M14, the m14 extractor was never designed to be used on steel cased ammo, in fact during initial run tests of the design in 1957 it was said to never use steel cased ammo because the extractors were not made for steel cased ammo and they will break. In fact you m1a book tells you not to shoot steel cased ammo in your M1a.

So it does not boggle my mind that springfield had the response they did.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:43:27 AM EDT
there ain't nothing wrong with Wolf. You just need to clean a little more
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:46:21 AM EDT
I think their product has improved a lot since the early days. But it is hard to shake the stigma of producing crappy ammunition, which was a bad business decision in the first place.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:52:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
My only hardcore jam was with Wolf ammo. One shell got stuck going into the chamber, the chamber wouldn't close, and I couldn't get it back out either. Rifle was out of commision until I got it home and I could tap it out with a brass rod from the muzzle side. I don't think it was laquer build up because I hadn't shot too many rounds, possibly some foreign matter got into the chamber or the case was out of round. I didn't do a post mortem, I was just happy to get the round out without blowing my hand off.




There is nothing like having to take a hammer to your $1,000 rifle to make you rethink saving a couple pennies on cheap ammo. I had the exact same experience using Wolf in my AR. Mine didn't tap out either it required several hard blows to get the stuck case out. Never again! I gave the rest of the ammo away.



it is more than a couple pennies. It is more like $80 a case difference. Which is enough to replace the barrel after only a few cases. IMO it is worth it, not to mention I have put 1000s of rounds through my ARs with no problems



Plinker maybe but It ain't worth the savings in a self defenses rifle…

Shooting crap ammo as long as it is not dangerous in a plinker is fine but not in a rifle you have to depend on.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:53:15 AM EDT
See the second part of my sig line. Granted, I have had excellent results with Wolf .45 ACP. It's very accurate although dirty. My Sig doesn't care what it's fed though. The 1911 runs it well too. .223 is a huge problem for me. I've got a chrome 5.56 chamber and have had 8-10 stuck cases out of 500. The extractor will rip the rim off the case and leave it stuck in the chamber. The chamber is clean too. Q3131A, XM193, and Winchester commercial don't have this problem. MJD
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 10:47:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 10:48:38 AM EDT by Agcsy]
Over the past year i probably fired about 2.5k rounds of lacquer coated wolf through a bushmaster postban M4 profile upper with a mini y comp. During that time i also fired XM193, Q3131a, Santa Barbara SS109 surplus, and the Brit SS109 from aim. So i figure maybe 4k rounds fired and i never cleaned the upper once during that time. Never had one malfunction with the wolf, xm193, or the Q3131a. I did have problems with the Santa Barbara ss109 which i dont believe was caused by the upper because it did the same thing in 3 other uppers.

Wolf goes bang and it hits what im aiming at.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 10:51:31 AM EDT
I don't use thier centerfire ammo, I would, I just never have.

But I have tried thier 22 LR ammo, which is made in Germany I think.

That stuff is super accurate! and less than half the cost of other match ammo!
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:03:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I hate to break the news but i think this has more to do wiith the picky M-16 type rifle and the Wolf .223 jamming it. I've heard no real complaints about Wolf reguarding any other cartridge or gun. my Ak never had a jam after 3000 rounds of Wolf. Nor my 9mm. Besides I've seen Old mil-surp ammo lacquered in the same way for 8mm mausers and 7.62 nato, it is an acceptable way to create mil spec ammo. It's the same problem the M-16 has had since Vietnam.
it is finicky about the ammo it's fed, even more so with full auto! and that damn 5.56mm case is just too straight! If was more bottlenecked or slanted from the rim to the crimp pulling it out would'nt be a problem. You wanna talk crap? I bought Barnaul silver bear HP in 9mm. Total joke! I thought it was made in Somalia by some junk yard owner.



1) Wolf runs just fine in my AR
2) Wolf jams like a mo-fo in my friend's SKSs (Let's hear your explaination for this)
3) Wolf is very underpowerd in 5.56, this is probably the cause of any problems people have with it in their AR15 (along with something being wrong with their rifle)
4) Many many people have had problems with Wolf pistol ammo, which you like so much. I will never buy Wolf in a pistol caliber.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:07:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
My only hardcore jam was with Wolf ammo. One shell got stuck going into the chamber, the chamber wouldn't close, and I couldn't get it back out either. Rifle was out of commision until I got it home and I could tap it out with a brass rod from the muzzle side. I don't think it was laquer build up because I hadn't shot too many rounds, possibly some foreign matter got into the chamber or the case was out of round. I didn't do a post mortem, I was just happy to get the round out without blowing my hand off.




There is nothing like having to take a hammer to your $1,000 rifle to make you rethink saving a couple pennies on cheap ammo. I had the exact same experience using Wolf in my AR. Mine didn't tap out either it required several hard blows to get the stuck case out. Never again! I gave the rest of the ammo away.



Uh huh, and I got a dented cartrige stuck in the chamber using Q3131A. I guess that ammo sucks (I don't know what happened, but somehow the case got dented and mangled before feeding).

It was stuck pretty good. I thought I was out of commission then tried pulling *really* hard and it came out.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:09:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I hate to break the news but i think this has more to do wiith the picky M-16 type rifle and the Wolf .223 jamming it. I've heard no real complaints about Wolf reguarding any other cartridge or gun. my Ak never had a jam after 3000 rounds of Wolf. Nor my 9mm. Besides I've seen Old mil-surp ammo lacquered in the same way for 8mm mausers and 7.62 nato, it is an acceptable way to create mil spec ammo. It's the same problem the M-16 has had since Vietnam.
it is finicky about the ammo it's fed, even more so with full auto! and that damn 5.56mm case is just too straight! If was more bottlenecked or slanted from the rim to the crimp pulling it out would'nt be a problem. You wanna talk crap? I bought Barnaul silver bear HP in 9mm. Total joke! I thought it was made in Somalia by some junk yard owner.



1) Wolf runs just fine in my AR
2) Wolf jams like a mo-fo in my friend's SKSs (Let's hear your explaination for this)
3) Wolf is very underpowerd in 5.56, this is probably the cause of any problems people have with it in their AR15 (along with something being wrong with their rifle)
4) Many many people have had problems with Wolf pistol ammo, which you like so much. I will never buy Wolf in a pistol caliber.



hmm, my sten loves wolf 9mm... 10,000 rounds total without cleaning and the last 3,000 were wolf btw, we ran 1000s of rounds of wolf through m16s at bulletfest this year, and they ran just fine...


[
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:14:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cduarte:
hmm, my sten loves wolf 9mm... 10,000 rounds total without cleaning and the last 3,000 were wolf



A Sten will digest about anything in 1948 the Israelis ran Sten’s on brass made from lipstick cases.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:26:45 AM EDT
How many of you guys that shoot wolf on the range but use the "good stuff" for defensive use know the exact difference in trajectory between the two and can compensate for it under stress without thinking, or are you planning on re-zeroing your rifle when the SHTF?


I would rather spend the extra money and train with the same ammo I will be shooting if TEOTWAWKI comes.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:32:38 AM EDT
I bought 500 rounds of Wolf polymer coated ammo to try out in my 5.56 chambered, no-ban 16" M4Gery. It ran ok for the first 30-40 rounds, then I literally had a FTE/stuck case that required a cleaning rod to remove every 2-3 rounds. After the first 2, I tore the rifle down completely and gave the chamber/bore a THOUROUGH cleaning, and cleaned the rest of the rifle as normal, and tried again. Same results. This rifle is a chrome lined frankengun built on a Mega lower, with parts from JT distributing. I've put several thousand Q3131A and M855 through it with NO MALFUNCTIONS.

Suffice it to say, I'll not be buying any more Wolf.

JMHO.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:40:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By t-stox:
I hate to break the news but i think this has more to do wiith the picky M-16 type rifle and the Wolf .223 jamming it. I've heard no real complaints about Wolf reguarding any other cartridge or gun. my Ak never had a jam after 3000 rounds of Wolf. Nor my 9mm. Besides I've seen Old mil-surp ammo lacquered in the same way for 8mm mausers and 7.62 nato, it is an acceptable way to create mil spec ammo. It's the same problem the M-16 has had since Vietnam.
it is finicky about the ammo it's fed, even more so with full auto! and that damn 5.56mm case is just too straight! If was more bottlenecked or slanted from the rim to the crimp pulling it out would'nt be a problem. You wanna talk crap? I bought Barnaul silver bear HP in 9mm. Total joke! I thought it was made in Somalia by some junk yard owner.



1) Wolf runs just fine in my AR
2) Wolf jams like a mo-fo in my friend's SKSs (Let's hear your explaination for this)
3) Wolf is very underpowerd in 5.56, this is probably the cause of any problems people have with it in their AR15 (along with something being wrong with their rifle)
4) Many many people have had problems with Wolf pistol ammo, which you like so much. I will never buy Wolf in a pistol caliber.



Gee wow I'm glad your AR runs on wolf So what do you want a medal? That does'nt change all the stories I've heard about .223 failure in AR's.
2. Well maybe it's a yugo sks without chrome so the steel cases have scratched the chamber to shit. But since I cant inspect the rifle i can't make an assessment now can i?
3. Dont know anything about that claim so i cannot comment on it.
4. I've never heard about this anymore than for other ammo companies.

Besides the plain fact is this, the gun itself will always play a factor in what ammo it can swallow. If you can't get or use a gun that is tough as nails that aint my problemo but you can't exclusivly blame Wolf ammo. In a real combat or SHTF situation the ammo at hand might be in shit shape or beat up or whatever, if your gun is too much of a pansy to use any old ammo, consider a different weapon.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:11:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Gee wow I'm glad your AR runs on wolf So what do you want a medal? That does'nt change all the stories I've heard about .223 failure in AR's.
2. Well maybe it's a yugo sks without chrome so the steel cases have scratched the chamber to shit. But since I cant inspect the rifle i can't make an assessment now can i?
3. Dont know anything about that claim so i cannot comment on it.
4. I've never heard about this anymore than for other ammo companies.

Besides the plain fact is this, the gun itself will always play a factor in what ammo it can swallow. If you can't get or use a gun that is tough as nails that aint my problemo but you can't exclusivly blame Wolf ammo. In a real combat or SHTF situation the ammo at hand might be in shit shape or beat up or whatever, if your gun is too much of a pansy to use any old ammo, consider a different weapon.



So, the AR platform sucks because Wolf doesn't work in it, but there *must* be something wrong with my friend's specific SKS, because Wolf doesn't work in it? You're trying to make the data fit your preconcieved notions.

If Wolf doesn't work in an AR15, or any other rifle for that matter, there is probably something wrong with the gun.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:51:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Weiseguy:
My only hardcore jam was with Wolf ammo. One shell got stuck going into the chamber, the chamber wouldn't close, and I couldn't get it back out either. Rifle was out of commision until I got it home and I could tap it out with a brass rod from the muzzle side. I don't think it was laquer build up because I hadn't shot too many rounds, possibly some foreign matter got into the chamber or the case was out of round. I didn't do a post mortem, I was just happy to get the round out without blowing my hand off.




There is nothing like having to take a hammer to your $1,000 rifle to make you rethink saving a couple pennies on cheap ammo. I had the exact same experience using Wolf in my AR. Mine didn't tap out either it required several hard blows to get the stuck case out. Never again! I gave the rest of the ammo away.




I was at a urban rifle class, and I had the same thing happened to me, only I was using Q3131A... Go figure.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:59:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 1:32:17 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
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