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Posted: 8/28/2017 12:14:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2017 12:15:56 PM EST by Spawn]
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 12:26:55 PM EST
Cool, it shoots really well in my ARs.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 1:10:19 PM EST
My go to 5.56 ammo.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 1:10:51 PM EST
Love that stuff
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 2:20:23 PM EST
So tell me why people dont like 193? I dont think I've ever seen it not perform in gel.

It certainly punches above its price would indicate.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 2:58:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AS556:
So tell me why people dont like 193? I dont think I've ever seen it not perform in gel.

It certainly punches above its price would indicate.
View Quote
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 4:54:25 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By AS556:
So tell me why people dont like 193? I dont think I've ever seen it not perform in gel.

It certainly punches above its price would indicate.
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
I like my hearing, I'll keep a can for my SHTFantasy rifle.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 5:42:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By FlatDarkEarf:
I like my hearing, I'll keep a can for my SHTFantasy rifle.
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Originally Posted By FlatDarkEarf:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By AS556:
So tell me why people dont like 193? I dont think I've ever seen it not perform in gel.

It certainly punches above its price would indicate.
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
I like my hearing, I'll keep a can for my SHTFantasy rifle.
Someone needs to do a test that shows the DB reduction of a SBR w/ a can vs an 16" or 20" AR w/ no can.

Shorter barrels are exponentially louder. How much less are they than a 16" w/ no can?

I dont have and SBR AR.. so cant run a test myself.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 6:00:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By moshaholic2:


Someone needs to do a test that shows the DB reduction of a SBR w/ a can vs an 16" or 20" AR w/ no can.

Shorter barrels are exponentially louder. How much less are they than a 16" w/ no can?

I dont have and SBR AR.. so cant run a test myself.
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Well, I do. My suppressed 11.5" is slightly louder than my suppressed 16". But my 11.5" is WAY quieter suppressed than any length .223Rem or 5.56mm rifle unsuppressed. Like, have you ever seen anyone choose to shoot an unsuppressed AR without earpro? No. I'll shoot my suppressed SBR without ears, though. It's nowhere even close and decibel readings would just obscure the difference, to be honest. Shooting a suppressed SBR is slightly uncomfortable. Shooting an unsuppressed 20" AR is holyfuckballs loud.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 6:20:18 PM EST
Good videos, thanks. I've always wondered how Gold might perform in my short rifles.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 7:07:16 PM EST
I shot some at a L-3 AR500 plate at 25 yards using a carbine. Just bounced right off.

It's about 10% (300 FPS) slower that Federal M193.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 7:12:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By moshaholic2:


Someone needs to do a test that shows the DB reduction of a SBR w/ a can vs an 16" or 20" AR w/ no can.

Shorter barrels are exponentially louder. How much less are they than a 16" w/ no can?

I dont have and SBR AR.. so cant run a test myself.
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Suppressed sbr about 140db. No can rifle, about 170.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 7:22:27 PM EST
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Originally Posted By HKPDW:
I shot some at a L-3 AR500 plate at 25 yards using a carbine. Just bounced right off.

It's about 10% (300 FPS) slower that Federal M193.
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At 25 yards, LC M193 will splatter on a steel target too. But Wolf Gold is roughly the same speed as Lake City M193. A lot of folks have chronoed it.
Link Posted: 8/28/2017 9:54:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
At 25 yards, LC M193 will splatter on a steel target too. But Wolf Gold is roughly the same speed as Lake City M193. A lot of folks have chronoed it.
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By HKPDW:
I shot some at a L-3 AR500 plate at 25 yards using a carbine. Just bounced right off.

It's about 10% (300 FPS) slower that Federal M193.
At 25 yards, LC M193 will splatter on a steel target too. But Wolf Gold is roughly the same speed as Lake City M193. A lot of folks have chronoed it.
I chrono'd it too and got an average of 2,950 FPS at 25 yards and it just bounced right off...

About 50/50 on the M193 bouncing at 25 yards (3,180 FPS)...
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 7:05:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2017 7:05:46 AM EST by Bones45]
Are there any studies correlating the expansion and fragmentation in gel of any rifle ammo to performance in human soft tissue? The only once I know about is the Fackler study that only measured penetration of a specific 9mm pistol load.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 8:09:15 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
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So 4 inches makes someone tacticool? Got it.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 8:58:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Recusance:
So 4 inches makes someone tacticool? Got it.
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Originally Posted By Recusance:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
So 4 inches makes someone tacticool? Got it.
Yes.  It's stupid, it does't help with anything practical at all.  However it does reduce the effectiveness of the weapon.  
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 9:32:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HKPDW:


I chrono'd it too and got an average of 2,950 FPS at 25 yards and it just bounced right off...

About 50/50 on the M193 bouncing at 25 yards (3,180 FPS)...
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It's not "bouncing off".
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 11:05:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2017 12:21:14 PM EST by ThunderStick]
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
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What is your purpose besides displaying poor grammar and sentence structure? You pose as an authority on what is proper for what I would assume is lethal self defense. I am quite sure that rounds fired from a short barrel rifle would be effective in neutralizing an attacker. You mention "fantasy scenarios". I submit that you also have "fantasy scenarios" where you need an extra 200fps to save your life from attackers 100 yards away.

Which is more likely? An attack at close range or 100 yards away? Who the fuck cares? Realistically, it ain't gonna happen. All scenarios are "fantasy scenarios".

SBRs (I personally don't have one yet) are fun toys, and another tool in the "golf bag". There are putters, pitching wedges, sand wedges, irons (long and short range) and wood drivers (extra long range). I have pistols, revolvers, shotguns, lever guns, long range sniper rifles, CQB rifles in multiple calibers and hopefully soon I will have short barreled rifles. It's all good.

.

Edit to thank @bluefalcon for his excellent videos!!
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 11:36:46 AM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:


It's not "bouncing off".
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I use it for dramatic impact...
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 12:17:35 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ThunderStick:
What is your purpose besides displaying poor grammar and sentence structure? You pose as an authority on what is proper for what I would assume is lethal self defense. I am quite sure that rounds fired from a short barrel rifle would be effective in neutralizing an attacker. You mention "fantasy scenarios". I submit that you also have "fantasy scenarios" where you need an extra 200fps to save your life from attackers 100 yards away.

Which is more likely? An attack at close range or 100 yards away? Who the fuck cares? Realistically, it ain't gonna happen. All scenarios are "fantasy scenarios".

.

Edit to thank @bluefalcon for his excellent videos!!
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Originally Posted By ThunderStick:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
What is your purpose besides displaying poor grammar and sentence structure? You pose as an authority on what is proper for what I would assume is lethal self defense. I am quite sure that rounds fired from a short barrel rifle would be effective in neutralizing an attacker. You mention "fantasy scenarios". I submit that you also have "fantasy scenarios" where you need an extra 200fps to save your life from attackers 100 yards away.

Which is more likely? An attack at close range or 100 yards away? Who the fuck cares? Realistically, it ain't gonna happen. All scenarios are "fantasy scenarios".

.

Edit to thank @bluefalcon for his excellent videos!!
I didn't "pose as an authority", that is something you made up.  

In fact in the very next sentence you stated how sure you are of what will neutralize an attacker.  Who exactly is posing as an authority here?   

I like how you say "rounds fired from a short barrel rifle", as if that's enough information.

I never said anything about 100 yards away, again that is something that you made up.  Maybe stick to things that I actually said instead of taking exception to things you came up with on your own?

The fantasy scenario I was referring to, is the one where a shorter barrel somehow saves the day.  The exceedingly rare (actually non existent) scenario where an 11" barrel affords you the maneuverability to save your life and the cumbersome 16" behemoth barrel would have slowed you down the point that you got killed.  That. Doesn't. Happen.  "Needing" an SBR is a fantasy, people just think they're cool.

However the reduced velocity and reduced terminal effectiveness of 5.56 fired from a shorter barrel is very real.  So you're giving up real performance for a shorter barrel that will literally never help you do anything you can't do with a 16".   

I hope my purpose and sentence structure are satisfactory to you now lol
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 1:22:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2017 1:23:09 PM EST by chase45]
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Yes.  It's stupid, it does't help with anything practical at all.  However it does reduce the effectiveness of the weapon.  
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Looks cool though

And lets be honest that's what matters the most

That said, bunch of dudes have been dropped out to 300m with a setup similar as below

Link Posted: 8/29/2017 1:31:33 PM EST
It cuts both ways. The terminal difference isn't going to get you killed. But SBRs are more convenient. Carrying a rifle every day is a pain in the ass. Getting in and out of vehicles with a rifle is a pain in the ass. Doing it with a shorter barrel is less inconvenient.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 1:35:50 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
I didn't "pose as an authority", that is something you made up.  

In fact in the very next sentence you stated how sure you are of what will neutralize an attacker.  Who exactly is posing as an authority here?   

I like how you say "rounds fired from a short barrel rifle", as if that's enough information.

I never said anything about 100 yards away, again that is something that you made up.  Maybe stick to things that I actually said instead of taking exception to things you came up with on your own?

The fantasy scenario I was referring to, is the one where a shorter barrel somehow saves the day.  The exceedingly rare (actually non existent) scenario where an 11" barrel affords you the maneuverability to save your life and the cumbersome 16" behemoth barrel would have slowed you down the point that you got killed.  That. Doesn't. Happen.  "Needing" an SBR is a fantasy, people just think they're cool.

However the reduced velocity and reduced terminal effectiveness of 5.56 fired from a shorter barrel is very real.  So you're giving up real performance for a shorter barrel that will literally never help you do anything you can't do with a 16".   

I hope my purpose and sentence structure are satisfactory to you now lol
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By your logic... why would anyone ever own a tacticool 16" AR? I mean... what can it do that a 20" can't do better?
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 2:32:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KD27:


By your logic... why would anyone ever own a tacticool 16" AR? I mean... what can it do that a 20" can't do better?
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That actually is his point. He's argued that several times.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 2:47:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:


That actually is his point. He's argued that several times.
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The post I quoted specifically compared a 16" vs 11" barrel. If the argument was that 20" trumps all, I would have expected 20" to be used in the comparison.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 2:53:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KD27:
By your logic... why would anyone ever own a tacticool 16" AR? I mean... what can it do that a 20" can't do better?
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Originally Posted By KD27:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
I didn't "pose as an authority", that is something you made up.  

In fact in the very next sentence you stated how sure you are of what will neutralize an attacker.  Who exactly is posing as an authority here?   

I like how you say "rounds fired from a short barrel rifle", as if that's enough information.

I never said anything about 100 yards away, again that is something that you made up.  Maybe stick to things that I actually said instead of taking exception to things you came up with on your own?

The fantasy scenario I was referring to, is the one where a shorter barrel somehow saves the day.  The exceedingly rare (actually non existent) scenario where an 11" barrel affords you the maneuverability to save your life and the cumbersome 16" behemoth barrel would have slowed you down the point that you got killed.  That. Doesn't. Happen.  "Needing" an SBR is a fantasy, people just think they're cool.

However the reduced velocity and reduced terminal effectiveness of 5.56 fired from a shorter barrel is very real.  So you're giving up real performance for a shorter barrel that will literally never help you do anything you can't do with a 16".   

I hope my purpose and sentence structure are satisfactory to you now lol
By your logic... why would anyone ever own a tacticool 16" AR? I mean... what can it do that a 20" can't do better?
Exactly.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 3:28:32 PM EST
For some of us that are only intending to use our suppressed SBR instead of a shotgun it is more compact and I think easier to move around with than one of my longer ARs would be with a can on them. I used the recently posted SBR velocity posts to choose my go to ammo and since I do not intend to shoot it farther than 10-15 yards and there are gel testing videos of said ammo performing sufficiently I don't think I am giving anything up to a longer barrel.

This is only for short range use as other than that I would of course choose a longer barrel. If I were law enforcement and had unknown engagement ranges I would opt for a 16" barrel. Yes with the can on my sbr is about the same overall length as one of my 16" rifles but it sure is a hell of a lot quieter.
Link Posted: 8/29/2017 10:45:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Exactly.
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I'm planning on my 8" SBR being my HD weapon. It's .300 blk so it doesn't suffer as much for such a short barrel. I've practiced room clearing with it vs. a 16" barreled carbine. It's far easier to use. It's as maneuverable as a pistol, with far more accuracy and power.

Soooo... Why use a 20" AR indoors? It's difficult going around doors and corners. Maybe a short barrel is useful if you aren't handicapped by caliber choices.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 6:22:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Exactly.
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By KD27:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
I didn't "pose as an authority", that is something you made up.  

In fact in the very next sentence you stated how sure you are of what will neutralize an attacker.  Who exactly is posing as an authority here?   

I like how you say "rounds fired from a short barrel rifle", as if that's enough information.

I never said anything about 100 yards away, again that is something that you made up.  Maybe stick to things that I actually said instead of taking exception to things you came up with on your own?

The fantasy scenario I was referring to, is the one where a shorter barrel somehow saves the day.  The exceedingly rare (actually non existent) scenario where an 11" barrel affords you the maneuverability to save your life and the cumbersome 16" behemoth barrel would have slowed you down the point that you got killed.  That. Doesn't. Happen.  "Needing" an SBR is a fantasy, people just think they're cool.

However the reduced velocity and reduced terminal effectiveness of 5.56 fired from a shorter barrel is very real.  So you're giving up real performance for a shorter barrel that will literally never help you do anything you can't do with a 16".   

I hope my purpose and sentence structure are satisfactory to you now lol
By your logic... why would anyone ever own a tacticool 16" AR? I mean... what can it do that a 20" can't do better?
Exactly.
And what can a 20" AR do that a 7.62x51 SCAR can't do better? And what can a 7.62x51 SCAR do that 21" FAL do better? Where does it end? Do we have to hear from the M1 Garand guys? The 45-70 Govt guys?

Unless you're saying that an SBR is ineffective to stop the threat (which is a high bar to leap, and which you haven't done), then they're all effective enough. Every weapon is a trade between convenience and effectiveness. Are some more effective than others? Of course. Are the ones we're discussing all effective enough? Of course.

Tacticool = stupid term used to deride those things that don't pass my arbitrary standard of what is "necessary."
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:05:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
I'm planning on my 8" SBR being my HD weapon. It's .300 blk so it doesn't suffer as much for such a short barrel. I've practiced room clearing with it vs. a 16" barreled carbine. It's far easier to use. It's as maneuverable as a pistol, with far more accuracy and power.

Soooo... Why use a 20" AR indoors? It's difficult going around doors and corners. Maybe a short barrel is useful if you aren't handicapped by caliber choices.
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Originally Posted By the_naked_prophet:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Exactly.
I'm planning on my 8" SBR being my HD weapon. It's .300 blk so it doesn't suffer as much for such a short barrel. I've practiced room clearing with it vs. a 16" barreled carbine. It's far easier to use. It's as maneuverable as a pistol, with far more accuracy and power.

Soooo... Why use a 20" AR indoors? It's difficult going around doors and corners. Maybe a short barrel is useful if you aren't handicapped by caliber choices.
LOL
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:09:33 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
LOL
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A smaller weapon is easier to use indoors and in crowded spaces.

I'm not sure whats so "LOL" about that comment

Not a bunch of guys kicking doors with 20" ARs given the choice of something else that's smaller.

I can assure you it would be easier to move in a house with my little MP5K than it would be my 21" FAL
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:09:44 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ScottS:
And what can a 20" AR do that a 7.62x51 SCAR can't do better? And what can a 7.62x51 SCAR do that 21" FAL do better? Where does it end? Do we have to hear from the M1 Garand guys? The 45-70 Govt guys?

Unless you're saying that an SBR is ineffective to stop the threat (which is a high bar to leap, and which you haven't done), then they're all effective enough. Every weapon is a trade between convenience and effectiveness. Are some more effective than others? Of course. Are the ones we're discussing all effective enough? Of course.

Tacticool = stupid term used to deride those things that don't pass my arbitrary standard of what is "necessary."
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Originally Posted By ScottS:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By KD27:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
I didn't "pose as an authority", that is something you made up.  

In fact in the very next sentence you stated how sure you are of what will neutralize an attacker.  Who exactly is posing as an authority here?   

I like how you say "rounds fired from a short barrel rifle", as if that's enough information.

I never said anything about 100 yards away, again that is something that you made up.  Maybe stick to things that I actually said instead of taking exception to things you came up with on your own?

The fantasy scenario I was referring to, is the one where a shorter barrel somehow saves the day.  The exceedingly rare (actually non existent) scenario where an 11" barrel affords you the maneuverability to save your life and the cumbersome 16" behemoth barrel would have slowed you down the point that you got killed.  That. Doesn't. Happen.  "Needing" an SBR is a fantasy, people just think they're cool.

However the reduced velocity and reduced terminal effectiveness of 5.56 fired from a shorter barrel is very real.  So you're giving up real performance for a shorter barrel that will literally never help you do anything you can't do with a 16".   

I hope my purpose and sentence structure are satisfactory to you now lol
By your logic... why would anyone ever own a tacticool 16" AR? I mean... what can it do that a 20" can't do better?
Exactly.
And what can a 20" AR do that a 7.62x51 SCAR can't do better? And what can a 7.62x51 SCAR do that 21" FAL do better? Where does it end? Do we have to hear from the M1 Garand guys? The 45-70 Govt guys?

Unless you're saying that an SBR is ineffective to stop the threat (which is a high bar to leap, and which you haven't done), then they're all effective enough. Every weapon is a trade between convenience and effectiveness. Are some more effective than others? Of course. Are the ones we're discussing all effective enough? Of course.

Tacticool = stupid term used to deride those things that don't pass my arbitrary standard of what is "necessary."
Ammo per lb, recoil, follow up shots, price, ammo selection, ammo price, there are tons of reasons to stick with a 5.56 AR over a 7.62 SCAR or something bigger.  The ONLY difference from an SBR 5.56 to a 16 or 20" is that the rounds are more effective, and the "maneuverability loss" is negligible.  It's just people who up and decided that 5" more barrel will jam them up, which is silly.

If people would just admit they think SBR's look cool (they do) and they are willing to give up some performance for looks I wouldn't care.  But this whole "I need mah short barrel or I can't clear my house" is BS.  

Tacticool = things you don't need because you think the cool guys have them.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:16:48 AM EST
Just curious, were you a SEAL or Ranger? Because with all your snobbish I am smarter than all you dumb asses out there you must have some serious credentials.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:17:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:
A smaller weapon is easier to use indoors and in crowded spaces.

I'm not sure whats so "LOL" about that comment

Not a bunch of guys kicking doors with 20" ARs given the choice of something else that's smaller.

I can assure you it would be easier to move in a house with my little MP5K than it would be my 21" FAL
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Originally Posted By chase45:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
LOL
A smaller weapon is easier to use indoors and in crowded spaces.

I'm not sure whats so "LOL" about that comment

Not a bunch of guys kicking doors with 20" ARs given the choice of something else that's smaller.

I can assure you it would be easier to move in a house with my little MP5K than it would be my 21" FAL
And how many in this thread kick in doors?  Really?  And if they are, I sure as fuck hope they aren't going to us YouTube creators for ammo tests.  

Tests like this, and threads like this are geared toward home defense users.  And it's very "LOL" for someone to think they NEED an SBR at home or they will be ineffective.  

I'll say it again since it appears my actual point is being missed.

Having a short barrel for sure reduces the effectiveness of 5.56, there is no maybe.  However, having a short barrel doesn't help 99.99% of HD users get something done they couldn't otherwise with a longer barrel as far as maneuverability.  What I'm saying is the trade off is disproportionate.  Of course a shorter barrel is easier to swing around...so what?  A 22lr has less recoil and follow up shots are much better, but you wouldn't trade off the effectiveness of 5.56 just to get that, because it's a bad trade.  

Trading 4-5" of barrel on a 5.56 AR to "maneuver" better is a bad trade.  If you really think you're in that .1% that NEEDS a short barrel, more power to you.  But you're probably not.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:18:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By FiremanFrank:

Just curious, were you a SEAL or Ranger? Because with all your snobbish I am smarter than all you dumb asses out there you must have some serious credentials.
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I wasn't a doctor either but I know meth is bad for you.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:21:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
And how many in this thread kick in doors?  Really?  And if they are, I sure as fuck hope they aren't going to us YouTube creators for ammo tests.  

Tests like this, and threads like this are geared toward home defense users.  And it's very "LOL" for someone to think they NEED an SBR at home or they will be ineffective.  

I'll say it again since it appears my actual point is being missed.

Having a short barrel for sure reduces the effectiveness of 5.56, there is no maybe.  However, having a short barrel doesn't help 99.99% of HD users get something done they couldn't otherwise with a longer barrel as far as maneuverability.  What I'm saying is the trade off is disproportionate.  Of course a shorter barrel is easier to swing around...so what?  A 22lr has less recoil and follow up shots are much better, but you wouldn't trade off the effectiveness of 5.56 just to get that, because it's a bad trade.  

Trading 4-5" of barrel on a 5.56 AR to "maneuver" better is a bad trade.  If you really think you're in that .1% that NEEDS a short barrel, more power to you.  But you're probably not.
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So what youre saying is you don't have a SBR?
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:32:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:
So what youre saying is you don't have a SBR?
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Originally Posted By chase45:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
And how many in this thread kick in doors?  Really?  And if they are, I sure as fuck hope they aren't going to us YouTube creators for ammo tests.  

Tests like this, and threads like this are geared toward home defense users.  And it's very "LOL" for someone to think they NEED an SBR at home or they will be ineffective.  

I'll say it again since it appears my actual point is being missed.

Having a short barrel for sure reduces the effectiveness of 5.56, there is no maybe.  However, having a short barrel doesn't help 99.99% of HD users get something done they couldn't otherwise with a longer barrel as far as maneuverability.  What I'm saying is the trade off is disproportionate.  Of course a shorter barrel is easier to swing around...so what?  A 22lr has less recoil and follow up shots are much better, but you wouldn't trade off the effectiveness of 5.56 just to get that, because it's a bad trade.  

Trading 4-5" of barrel on a 5.56 AR to "maneuver" better is a bad trade.  If you really think you're in that .1% that NEEDS a short barrel, more power to you.  But you're probably not.
So what youre saying is you don't have a SBR?
Not in 5.56, I do have a pistol AR in 300blk.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 9:46:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2017 9:46:42 AM EST by chase45]
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Not in 5.56, I do have a pistol AR in 300blk.
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Its not really about it being easier to swing around.

Its more about being able to move around quickly in tight quarters without bumping into shit. Being able to keep it shouldered and able to sight a target while moving around. That's not something I can do with my full size FAL, but can my smaller SBRs

You got SF guys that have been dropping dudes with 10.x" guns for a long time so they do work

I get what youre saying, don't get me wrong. But denying the benefits that a SBR has in a HD scenario I don't understand.

And yes, as I stated above, they look a fuck ton cooler
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 10:02:37 AM EST
What you're both missing is that the differences on both sides really aren't that important. Yes, an SBR handles a little better. But most of us are putting a can on our SBR and then it's back to being about the same length as a 16" carbine. Yes, a 20" rifle had better external and terminal ballistics and will punch steel armor with the right amount at longer distances. But 77gr TMK, 50gr TSX, and 62gr Fusion will positively fuck someone up from a 10" barrel and the amount of bonus tissue damage produced from a 20" tube is unlikely to make a difference in a fight.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 10:11:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
What you're both missing is that the differences on both sides really aren't that important. Yes, an SBR handles a little better. But most of us are putting a can on our SBR and then it's back to being about the same length as a 16" carbine. Yes, a 20" rifle had better external and terminal ballistics and will punch steel armor with the right amount at longer distances. But 77gr TMK, 50gr TSX, and 62gr Fusion will positively fuck someone up from a 10" barrel and the amount of bonus tissue damage produced from a 20" tube is unlikely to make a difference in a fight.
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Is worth more than the little bit you can swing around a doorway better with a shorter barrel.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 10:27:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Is worth more than the little bit you can swing around a doorway better with a shorter barrel.
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10 inches in quite a bit of length added when working in hallways.

I mean I can literally walk down my hallways and prove how it would be easier to use a small weapon vs a large one.

But I digress. You use your long ones. Ill use my short ones and well all be happy
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 10:51:11 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Is worth more than the little bit you can swing around a doorway better with a shorter barrel.
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Value statements are subjective. Objectively speaking, the difference is small. If you value the sight terminal advantage at close range, that's fine. If something else values the slight handling advantage, that's also rational.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 11:37:29 AM EST
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Value statements are subjective. Objectively speaking, the difference is small. If you value the sight terminal advantage at close range, that's fine. If something else values the slight handling advantage, that's also rational.
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Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Is worth more than the little bit you can swing around a doorway better with a shorter barrel.
Value statements are subjective. Objectively speaking, the difference is small. If you value the sight terminal advantage at close range, that's fine. If something else values the slight handling advantage, that's also rational.
Sometimes M193 (the round you tested in the OP) doesn't fragment from a shorter barrel.  That is a quantifiable difference in effectiveness, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out that an SBR vs a longer barrel reduces the chance of fragmentation by xx%.   That isn't subjective at all. 

What is the % chance that a longer barrel will have a real effect on your ability to stop a threat because you can't maneuver?  That sounds like it's a lot more subjective to me.    Like I said, you're sacrificing a real (measurable) loss in effectiveness, for some intangible good feeling about moving around quicker.  Even though it may be true that you can run around your house faster with an SBR the trade off is bad, and the instance where you "lose" because your barrel was too long just doesn't exist.

This reminds me of "what if the round exits the bad guy after a COM hit and continues on to hit an innocent bystander".  It just doesn't happen.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 11:42:05 AM EST
So your whole thesis is on one round? Some of us use other ammo like Speer Gold Dot, Fusion MSR or similar.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 11:48:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By FiremanFrank:

So your whole thesis is on one round? Some of us use other ammo like Speer Gold Dot, Fusion MSR or similar.
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I didn't say it was only on one round, that is something you made up.  I gave an example (which matched the video you posted that the thread was about), because the reduced effectiveness of 5.56 from an SBR is not subjective, not like swinging your gun around inside your house faster with a shorter barrel is lol
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 12:07:05 PM EST
You're right, I went with that round as that is the one you referenced. It doesn't matter that there is plenty of evidence of that a shorter barrel is often used by those who do stuff like get into danger. Isn't the current M4 issued with a 14.5" or so barrel? Dang, they should ask you for advice as all of those in the military are sure confused. Could the reason be that they like that it is more maneuverable than a longer barrel when they enter buildings not to mention getting in and out of vehicles?

I am not in the military but maybe someone that is or has been can comment. I do see that the marine corp agree with the longer barrel though. So I guess you are not all wrong.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 12:55:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By FiremanFrank:

You're right, I went with that round as that is the one you referenced. It doesn't matter that there is plenty of evidence of that a shorter barrel is often used by those who do stuff like get into danger. Isn't the current M4 issued with a 14.5" or so barrel? Dang, they should ask you for advice as all of those in the military are sure confused. Could the reason be that they like that it is more maneuverable than a longer barrel when they enter buildings not to mention getting in and out of vehicles?

I am not in the military but maybe someone that is or has been can comment. I do see that the marine corp agree with the longer barrel though. So I guess you are not all wrong.
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Do you get in and out of vehicles with people shooting at you often?    Like I said, the scenarios where the people posting in this thread NEED a shorter barrel are pure fantasy. 


That's pretty funny that you brought up the Military and then noted that the face shooters use 20" barrels lol
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 1:06:03 PM EST
I can only speak on behalf of myself. But the indoor maneuverability difference between a 20" suppressed rifle and a 10.5" suppressed SBR has quantifiable value.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 1:54:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Do you get in and out of vehicles with people shooting at you often?    Like I said, the scenarios where the people posting in this thread NEED a shorter barrel are pure fantasy. 


That's pretty funny that you brought up the Military and then noted that the face shooters use 20" barrels lol
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I did that to be a full response but I believe the other branches use a shorter barrel. LOL.
Link Posted: 8/30/2017 3:24:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2017 3:25:00 PM EST by Caeser2001]
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Originally Posted By moshaholic2:
Someone needs to do a test that shows the DB reduction of a SBR w/ a can vs an 16" or 20" AR w/ no can.

Shorter barrels are exponentially louder. How much less are they than a 16" w/ no can?

I dont have and SBR AR.. so cant run a test myself.
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Originally Posted By moshaholic2:
Originally Posted By FlatDarkEarf:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By AS556:
So tell me why people dont like 193? I dont think I've ever seen it not perform in gel.

It certainly punches above its price would indicate.
Because people like to use really short barrels for fantasy scenarios that never happen and short barrels don't help that much for anyway.

Short barrels are tacticool and M193 isn't as good when you slow it down, although it is still very good.
I like my hearing, I'll keep a can for my SHTFantasy rifle.
Someone needs to do a test that shows the DB reduction of a SBR w/ a can vs an 16" or 20" AR w/ no can.

Shorter barrels are exponentially louder. How much less are they than a 16" w/ no can?

I dont have and SBR AR.. so cant run a test myself.
Have you never been on YouTube

https://m.youtube.com/user/SilencerShop
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