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Posted: 8/3/2009 11:54:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 12:43:44 AM EST by para_frame]
or rather one of the two. I found it very interesting that only two murders have ever been committed with registered MG's the history of the NFA (1934-2009). our congress members have killed more people then MG's.
Ban congress, not machine guns.
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 11:57:00 PM EST
as far as i know, both were.

there was the ohio cop that used his m11/380 to waste an informant, but the other escapes my memory
Link Posted: 8/3/2009 11:57:42 PM EST
How many cops do you have?

I personally don't have any.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:03:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By golfroot:
How many cops do you have?

I personally don't have any.


I have a pre-ban trade in from the 80's has handle bar mustache and everything.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:07:07 AM EST
The other was a doctor. And I tell this stat better. "With only a single exception, every person convicted of murdering someone with a lawfully possessed machinegun since 1934 was a cop or soldier."
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:09:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 12:15:24 AM EST by Cyclic240B]
Originally Posted By para_frame:
or rather one of the two. I found it very interesting that only two murders have ever been committed with registered MG's the history of the NFA (1934-2009). our congress members have killed more people then MG's.
Ban congress, not machine guns.


The "funny" thing about those statistics is Roger Waller was a family friend of ours, and corresponds with my Mother to this day. Anyway, when I lived in Dayton OH I bought all my guns from him at his shop in the 2300 block of Argyle Street. Which was a few blocks from my house. And being a family friend, I could walk in at 18 and grab a case of 7.62x39 and not pay for it until I got paid at work. Which was a convenient arrangement in the hey day of cheap ammo.

Skipping to the incident, Roger, Denny, me, and a bunch of other officers from the Dayton PD were on a paintball team (team tactical) together. They killed the one guy and messed up the other on a Saturday night. He used his Mac-11 in the crime, which I had shot before. Anyway, Sunday morning we had a match and I always rode with him to the matches in Miamisburg. So I was with him and his accomplice less than six hours after they did that dumb shit. And the freaky part is they talked about it, asked if I had heard about, and discussed the whole crime scene in detail. Which I didn't find strange since Roger was a cop.

Then a few weeks later he is arrested and on TV, I remember the conversation, and am shocked as hell.... trippy to say the least.

ETA: Up until he did that dumb shit I thought he was a good dude. Shit, when I turned 18 he let me "have" my Polytech Legend. I just filled out the ATF form, and paid him off as I got the funds.No layaway, no agreements on paper, just "take it and pay me when you can"....
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:16:01 AM EST
For those of us whose google foo sucks, could you tell that story to us? About the murder?
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:20:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 12:23:08 AM EST by OhioEd]
Yup. The one in Ohio was a Dayton cop. He used to have a gun shop on Argyle Street in Dayton. Shortly before his arrest he got into paint ball and became an "air smith". A guy I know was a friend of his and believed the BS story that said cop told him about what happened.

Apparently, he went out to talk to this informant off duty, with a partner no less. He was carrying his M11 .380 in a horizontal shoulder holster. His partner had a shotgun. Well, when they got there, there was another guy with the informant. During the conversation, Mr M11 guy gets a call on his radio. He turns his back on the informant, and as he pulls his radio from his belt, the rubber antenna slips into the M11s trigger guard, causing it to fire, striking the informant..........................32 times His partner, surprised by the sudden eruption of gun fire, has a massive Adrenalin dump and blasts the other guy with the Gage.

I tried to explain to the guy that this was bullshit. You would have to accept that some one, supposedly knowledgeable about fire arms, is carrying a fully loaded, open bolt SMG, not only with the bolt back, but with the selector set on full auto AND the safety off. Not only THAT, but that said gun, in a holster, would be capable of firing all 32 rounds in the mag, while in a HOLSTER, not supported or held in any way, that all 32 rounds would not only feed, but EJECT, while in the holster, not only this, but ALL 32 rounds would also strike a single target while doing all of this. Not only THAT, but that a gun, carried in such a holster, would be suspended under the weak side arm, and the big walkie talkie type radios they carried at the time would most likely NOT be on the same side as such a holster, but on the dominant arm side.

He still believed his Buddy's account of what happened even though that scenario was never brought up in court and said cop simply piled guilty and quietly went to prison.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:25:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
For those of us whose google foo sucks, could you tell that story to us? About the murder?


If you are referring to Roger Waller, the guy he killed was local shitbag named Lawrence Hileman. He was a drug dealer and police informant. It never came out that I recall, but he was not killed over drugs. There was a big jewelry heist in the Dayton area earlier. Rumor was that Lawrence Hileman knew the details, actually had some of the stolen items, and was killed to shut him up. Contract style.

Waller did a full mag dump in center mass in Lawrence Hileman. Thirty rounds to the chest, he was DRT. Denny, Wallers accomplice, shot the other guy there multiple times with a 12ga w/ #00...center mass. They assumed he was DRT too. The guy lived, the rest went down hill for them from there....
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:27:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 12:30:45 AM EST by Cyclic240B]
Originally Posted By OhioEd:
Yup. The one in Ohio was a Dayton cop. He used to have a gun shop on Argyle Street in Dayton. Shortly before his arrest he got into paint ball and became an "air smith". A guy I know was a friend of his and believed the BS story that said cop told him about what happened.

Apparently, he went out to talk to this informant off duty, with a partner no less. He was carrying his M11 .380 in a horizontal shoulder holster. His partner had a shotgun. Well, when they got there, there was another guy with the informant. During the conversation, Mr M11 guy gets a call on his radio. He turns his back on the informant, and as he pulls his radio from his belt, the rubber antenna slips into the M11s trigger guard, causing it to fire, striking the informant..........................32 times His partner, surprised by the sudden eruption of gun fire, has a massive Adrenalin dump and blasts the other guy with the Gage.

I tried to explain to the guy that this was bullshit. You would have to accept that some one, supposedly knowledgeable about fire arms, is carrying a fully loaded, open bolt SMG, not only with the bolt back, but with the selector set on full auto AND the safety off. Not only THAT, but that said gun, in a holster, would be capable of firing all 32 rounds in the mag, while in a HOLSTER, not supported or held in any way, that all 32 rounds would not only feed, but EJECT, while in the holster, not only this, but ALL 32 rounds would also strike a single target while doing all of this. Not only THAT, but that a gun, carried in such a holster, would be suspended under the weak side arm, and the big walkie talkie type radios they carried at the time would most likely NOT be on the same side as such a holster, but on the dominant arm side.

He still believed his Buddy's account of what happened even though that scenario was never brought up in court and said cop simply piled guilty and quietly went to prison.


Holy shit, do we know each other?

ETA: Roger never made excuses of what happened to me. He/they clinically described it that following morning from the perspective of a Cop who was at the scene. No more no less. And I never spoke to him after he was arrested until after the case and he was in the Gray Bar Motel.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:30:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cyclic240B:
Originally Posted By OhioEd:
Yup. The one in Ohio was a Dayton cop. He used to have a gun shop on Argyle Street in Dayton. Shortly before his arrest he got into paint ball and became an "air smith". A guy I know was a friend of his and believed the BS story that said cop told him about what happened.

Apparently, he went out to talk to this informant off duty, with a partner no less. He was carrying his M11 .380 in a horizontal shoulder holster. His partner had a shotgun. Well, when they got there, there was another guy with the informant. During the conversation, Mr M11 guy gets a call on his radio. He turns his back on the informant, and as he pulls his radio from his belt, the rubber antenna slips into the M11s trigger guard, causing it to fire, striking the informant..........................32 times His partner, surprised by the sudden eruption of gun fire, has a massive Adrenalin dump and blasts the other guy with the Gage.

I tried to explain to the guy that this was bullshit. You would have to accept that some one, supposedly knowledgeable about fire arms, is carrying a fully loaded, open bolt SMG, not only with the bolt back, but with the selector set on full auto AND the safety off. Not only THAT, but that said gun, in a holster, would be capable of firing all 32 rounds in the mag, while in a HOLSTER, not supported or held in any way, that all 32 rounds would not only feed, but EJECT, while in the holster, not only this, but ALL 32 rounds would also strike a single target while doing all of this. Not only THAT, but that a gun, carried in such a holster, would be suspended under the weak side arm, and the big walkie talkie type radios they carried at the time would most likely NOT be on the same side as such a holster, but on the dominant arm side.

He still believed his Buddy's account of what happened even though that scenario was never brought up in court and said cop simply piled guilty and quietly went to prison.


Holy shit, do we know each other?


I always love when my threads bring old friends together.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:33:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cyclic240B:
Originally Posted By OhioEd:
Yup. The one in Ohio was a Dayton cop. He used to have a gun shop on Argyle Street in Dayton. Shortly before his arrest he got into paint ball and became an "air smith". A guy I know was a friend of his and believed the BS story that said cop told him about what happened.

Apparently, he went out to talk to this informant off duty, with a partner no less. He was carrying his M11 .380 in a horizontal shoulder holster. His partner had a shotgun. Well, when they got there, there was another guy with the informant. During the conversation, Mr M11 guy gets a call on his radio. He turns his back on the informant, and as he pulls his radio from his belt, the rubber antenna slips into the M11s trigger guard, causing it to fire, striking the informant..........................32 times His partner, surprised by the sudden eruption of gun fire, has a massive Adrenalin dump and blasts the other guy with the Gage.

I tried to explain to the guy that this was bullshit. You would have to accept that some one, supposedly knowledgeable about fire arms, is carrying a fully loaded, open bolt SMG, not only with the bolt back, but with the selector set on full auto AND the safety off. Not only THAT, but that said gun, in a holster, would be capable of firing all 32 rounds in the mag, while in a HOLSTER, not supported or held in any way, that all 32 rounds would not only feed, but EJECT, while in the holster, not only this, but ALL 32 rounds would also strike a single target while doing all of this. Not only THAT, but that a gun, carried in such a holster, would be suspended under the weak side arm, and the big walkie talkie type radios they carried at the time would most likely NOT be on the same side as such a holster, but on the dominant arm side.

He still believed his Buddy's account of what happened even though that scenario was never brought up in court and said cop simply piled guilty and quietly went to prison.


Holy shit, do we know each other?


Doubt it. I was only in his shop once. Found him in the phone book, his shop was still listed as a gun shop, but when I got there, the only thing he had was paint ball stuff and was doing the brazing and stuff the early "air smiths" did to custumize the guns at the time. He was arrestes shortly after my visit. It was quite a few years later that I met the other guy who knew him and heard that story. I almost laughed in the guys face, but he told the story so earnestly and seemed so sad his bud was locked up over an accident I just tried to "shoot some holes" in the story he got. Did no good.

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:33:28 AM EST
That *you* know of.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:41:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 12:54:03 AM EST by OhioEd]
[snip.


Holy shit, do we know each other?

ETA: Roger never made excuses of what happened to me. He/they clinically described it that following morning from the perspective of a Cop who was at the scene. No more no less. And I never spoke to him after he was arrested until after the case and he was in the Gray Bar Motel.[/quote]

He really did seem like a nice guy. Even after I found out it was no longer a gun shop I stayed and talked to him a while. I had played paint ball a hand full of times and was interested, but he was obviously way more into it than I was.
ETA: I wasn't from the area, I was a Drexel boy

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 12:47:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By OhioEd:
[snip.


Holy shit, do we know each other?

ETA: Roger never made excuses of what happened to me. He/they clinically described it that following morning from the perspective of a Cop who was at the scene. No more no less. And I never spoke to him after he was arrested until after the case and he was in the Gray Bar Motel.


He really did seem like a nice guy. Even after I found out it was no longer a gun shop I stayed and talked to him a while. I had played paint ball a hand full of times and was interested, but he was obviously way more into it than I was.

[/quote]

Yeah, I/We was shocked as hell because he was a nice guy. Roger patrolled my neighborhood when he was a Cop, and jerked a knot in my ass more than a few times when he caught me out past curfew. He finally talked to my Mother, to straighten my ass out, and he became friends with my parents from there.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 1:01:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cyclic240B:
Originally Posted By OhioEd:
[snip.


Holy shit, do we know each other?

ETA: Roger never made excuses of what happened to me. He/they clinically described it that following morning from the perspective of a Cop who was at the scene. No more no less. And I never spoke to him after he was arrested until after the case and he was in the Gray Bar Motel.


He really did seem like a nice guy. Even after I found out it was no longer a gun shop I stayed and talked to him a while. I had played paint ball a hand full of times and was interested, but he was obviously way more into it than I was.



Yeah, I/We was shocked as hell because he was a nice guy. Roger patrolled my neighborhood when he was a Cop, and jerked a knot in my ass more than a few times when he caught me out past curfew. He finally talked to my Mother, to straighten my ass out, and he became friends with my parents from there.[/quote]

I often wondered why he did it. Financial problems? involved in corruption? I do understand why he simply pled guilty and went away quietly. Who ever hired him to hit ol' dude would most likely be worried he would roll on him to save his own ass and he would get a hot lead injection himself. By pleading out, giving no information and going away to do his time it would hopefully prove he was not a snitch him self and take the cross hairs off of him. Still pretty sad when a nice guy gets mixed up with that kind of shit. You play the game, you take your chances.

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 1:10:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 1:13:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 1:14:49 AM EST by para_frame]
Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:


What? it is verifiable and true.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 2:19:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:


What? it is verifiable and true.


He rushes to the defense of any and all police officers, regardless of the story, actions, truth, etc.

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 2:23:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:


I see you got your hall monitor badge in the mail.


Link Posted: 8/4/2009 2:29:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:


Link Posted: 8/4/2009 2:53:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:


Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:09:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jonny_Flashbang:

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:21:34 AM EST
Wasn't there a gun dealer that used a full auto (or select fire) weapon to murder his wife/girlfriend or her other lover around two years ago?

Maybe it was an AR-15 or an FAL, but I think it may have been an NFA item he used.
My memory stinks, but I remember when it happened it was talked about quite a bit on this forum.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:23:10 AM EST
What about illegally owned machine guns?
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:29:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR-10:
Wasn't there a gun dealer that used a full auto (or select fire) weapon to murder his wife/girlfriend or her other lover around two years ago?

Maybe it was an AR-15 or an FAL, but I think it may have been an NFA item he used.
My memory stinks, but I remember when it happened it was talked about quite a bit on this forum.

I want to say it was actually an AUG and there was a thread here on it as one of the posters here knew the guy.....don't know how it ever hashed out. I know it was in Ohio.


Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:29:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
What about illegally owned machine guns?


Nobody wants to talk about that.

The thought did cross my mind, though.

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:37:15 AM EST
One problem with this argument (only 2 murders w/ registered MG's) is that it opens the door to the argument that registration works and ALL guns should be heavily registered and regulated like MG's are. It is a 2 edged sword.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:42:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR-10:
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
What about illegally owned machine guns?


Nobody wants to talk about that.

The thought did cross my mind, though.



Yeah...pretty much...seems to me like the law is working just fine...if there are only TWO cases of murders from using a legally registered machine gun. This does nothing to help our cause.

Nothing to see here...move along...

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:47:36 AM EST
What was the second murder?
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 3:56:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR-10:
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
What about illegally owned machine guns?


Nobody wants to talk about that.

The thought did cross my mind, though.


Oh there's been a few of those. Not murders but damn near event...look at the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. The issue the OP seems to be focusing on is that to go through the legal rigamarole to buy a legal MG typically means it isn't going to be used in a crime. Strange however that the legally owned MGs used in crimes have been done by LE and a doc.

Still can't remember the one with the guy in OH.

Link Posted: 8/4/2009 4:04:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By AROKIE:

Originally Posted By golfroot:
How many cops do you have?

I personally don't have any.


I have a pre-ban trade in from the 80's has handle bar mustache and everything.


Link Posted: 8/4/2009 4:32:02 AM EST
before you go on a legalize MG rant, you have to look at the issue from the other side... anticipate what anti gunners will say. anti-gunners will just say that MGs are so destructive that they can't even be trusted in the hands of police officers - they are too deadly. "two too many" would be their BS tag line.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 4:38:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
Originally Posted By AR-10:
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
What about illegally owned machine guns?


Nobody wants to talk about that.

The thought did cross my mind, though.



Yeah...pretty much...seems to me like the law is working just fine...if there are only TWO cases of murders from using a legally registered machine gun. This does nothing to help our cause.

Nothing to see here...move along...



Well, that's not quite true. Machine guns aren't used in crime because non-NFA weapons are much easier and cheaper to obtain. If all guns were registered like NFA weapons, there would be less 'competition'.

...or perhaps the blackpowder crime rate would skyrocket...
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 4:50:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 4:51:17 AM EST by Steve_T_M]
You could make a case for opening up the registry, if not repealing the NFA itself. The chances of me being murdered by a rogue NFA owner are about the same as the chances of an alligator coming up through my toilet and biting me on the ass.

Funny thing is: a lot of the outlaws of the pre-NFA days didn't buy their machine guns, they stole them from the police and military.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:08:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By OhioEd:
Yup. The one in Ohio was a Dayton cop. He used to have a gun shop on Argyle Street in Dayton. Shortly before his arrest he got into paint ball and became an "air smith". A guy I know was a friend of his and believed the BS story that said cop told him about what happened.

Apparently, he went out to talk to this informant off duty, with a partner no less. He was carrying his M11 .380 in a horizontal shoulder holster. His partner had a shotgun. Well, when they got there, there was another guy with the informant. During the conversation, Mr M11 guy gets a call on his radio. He turns his back on the informant, and as he pulls his radio from his belt, the rubber antenna slips into the M11s trigger guard, causing it to fire, striking the informant..........................32 times His partner, surprised by the sudden eruption of gun fire, has a massive Adrenalin dump and blasts the other guy with the Gage.

I tried to explain to the guy that this was bullshit. You would have to accept that some one, supposedly knowledgeable about fire arms, is carrying a fully loaded, open bolt SMG, not only with the bolt back, but with the selector set on full auto AND the safety off. Not only THAT, but that said gun, in a holster, would be capable of firing all 32 rounds in the mag, while in a HOLSTER, not supported or held in any way, that all 32 rounds would not only feed, but EJECT, while in the holster, not only this, but ALL 32 rounds would also strike a single target while doing all of this. Not only THAT, but that a gun, carried in such a holster, would be suspended under the weak side arm, and the big walkie talkie type radios they carried at the time would most likely NOT be on the same side as such a holster, but on the dominant arm side.

He still believed his Buddy's account of what happened even though that scenario was never brought up in court and said cop simply piled guilty and quietly went to prison.


Hmm. Sounds like a suicide to me.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:13:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
Originally Posted By AR-10:
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
What about illegally owned machine guns?


Nobody wants to talk about that.

The thought did cross my mind, though.



Yeah...pretty much...seems to me like the law is working just fine...if there are only TWO cases of murders from using a legally registered machine gun. This does nothing to help our cause.

Nothing to see here...move along...



The keywords here are legally and registered. You could make it a requirement for the moon to be in special positions at the time of sale and use, but this law wouldn't do anything to prevent criminals from doing it.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:14:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/4/2009 5:32:38 AM EST by BenDover]
Aaaah god ol' Dayton South Detroit, what's not to love.

I remember when this happened. I was at Wright State.

I can't say I miss my years there.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:22:51 AM EST
No surprise here.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:28:12 AM EST
But but but.....that can't be true! I heard on the news that the mere sight of an evil assult rifle can kill you! Surely U.S. MGs account for 1/2 of the firearm deaths in this country and 90% of the deaths in Mexico!
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:35:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By VRazer2:
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
Originally Posted By AR-10:
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
What about illegally owned machine guns?


Nobody wants to talk about that.

The thought did cross my mind, though.



Yeah...pretty much...seems to me like the law is working just fine...if there are only TWO cases of murders from using a legally registered machine gun. This does nothing to help our cause.

Nothing to see here...move along...



The keywords here are legally and registered. You could make it a requirement for the moon to be in special positions at the time of sale and use, but this law wouldn't do anything to prevent criminals from doing it.


It strengthens the position that registering them with tax stamps indicates that voilent crimes are not committed with them, but I don't see how this implies that reviking the 1986 ban and stopping registration would be good. We need to look at the stats of crimes committed with unregistered machine guns first.
Link Posted: 8/4/2009 5:37:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ironmaker:
One problem with this argument (only 2 murders w/ registered MG's) is that it opens the door to the argument that registration works and ALL guns should be heavily registered and regulated like MG's are. It is a 2 edged sword.


That's what I was gonna say.
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