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Posted: 8/11/2005 9:11:23 AM EDT
With the price of 9mm at $3.86 per box in Acadamy stores, what a great cartridge for the lever action. Is is possible for the action to feed a 9mm cartridge rim?

M4-AK
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:18:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 9:18:51 AM EDT by CeramicGod]
That is just about the dumbest rifle imagined.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:22:10 AM EDT
Being "rimless" is the problem with 9mm and lever actions. The rim on revolver ammo assists the action in controlling ammo movement through the weapon. All lever action ammo has some type of rim. The most unique would be .450 Marlin which is a belted cartridge.

Any "rimless" ammo would be difficult to manage in the design of a lever action.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:22:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 9:23:56 AM EDT by skpp108]

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
That is just about the dumbest rifle imagined.



No dumber than a .38. And the tube would hold more rounds.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:26:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skpp108:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
That is just about the dumbest rifle imagined.



No dumber than a .38. And the tube would hold more rounds.



I had a .357 Rossi Stainless lever gun. That thing was fun. Wish I still had it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:37:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skpp108:

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
That is just about the dumbest rifle imagined.



No dumber than a .38. And the tube would hold more rounds.



.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:40:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:43:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:48:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



It can be done, but why. There would be very little market for a 9mm lever.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:51:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:53:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.




I don't think anyone has ever been able to prove that pointy tipped rounds can go off in the tube of a lever action.



Yes, it has happened in .30-30s. I doubt a 9mm FMJ would do it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:02:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:04:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.




I think we're missing each other. The BLR has a detachable box magazine, the 99 I believe has a fixed rotary magazine. They both handle rimless cases and spitzer ammunition just fine.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:05:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:05:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.




I don't think anyone has ever been able to prove that pointy tipped rounds can go off in the tube of a lever action.



Call MYTHBUSTERS, they like guns!
CH
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:06:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:11:19 AM EDT
I think the fear of accidental detonation of the primer in a lever-action gun is overblown for the most part, and would CERTAINLY be overblown in the case of a 9mm rifle. A serious rifle cartridge (a la the BLR) might indeed generate enough force in recoil to make such a thing happen, but there is no way a 9mm round would be able to generate enough force to cause such a phenomenon.

That being said, I have no idea how much market there would be for a lever-action 9mm rifle, or a pump action 9mm rifle. It would be kind of fun to play with if it was reliable, but I don't think I would pony up the money to own one myself.

Not to mention the technical challenges of making a rimless cartridge feed properly in such a design. Lever actions have a hard enough time feeding rimmed cartridges....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:12:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
I use .357 FMJ all the time in my Marlin 1897

ANdy



Ya. Lots of folks I have seen have .44 magnum rifles and use FMJ ammo too. Handgun rounds just do not generate enough force to cause rounds in the tube to fire under recoil.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:17:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:19:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:21:16 AM EDT
My .35 Reminton lever action uses a rimless cartridge. I don't see what the big deal is about making a rimless lever action.


ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:34:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
Get a Marlin 1894C, some .38Spl or 357mag ammo and be happy!




Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Wave:
Get a Marlin 1894C, some .38Spl or 357mag ammo and be happy!





ANdy



Okay you two, If I end up buying a 1894C, IT'D BE YOUR FAULT!

Now tell the truth. What's the accuracy like at 50, 100yds?

Do you have to shoot the brand name Federal or Remington .357 at ~$0.45 to .50 a shot a to get groups or can a guy use the PMC, Magtech, etc at ~ $0.22 to .30 a shot?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:40:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ByteTheBullet:
My .35 Reminton lever action uses a rimless cartridge. I don't see what the big deal is about making a rimless lever action.


ByteTheBullet (-:


KeithJ is right.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:41:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 10:41:56 AM EDT by HardShell]
The other drawback to a 9mm lever-action would be that 9mm wouldn't see equivalent performance gains from the longer barrel that .357s & .44s receive. IIRC, most 9mm rounds only benefit from the first 12" or so of a longer barrel - the remaining barrel length actually detracts from performance. (The resident ballistics gurus can correct me if I'm remembering this wrong. )

Of course, that hasn't hindered sales of the 9mm AR, Beretta Storm, Kel-Tec SUB, Marlin Camp Carbine (I have at least one of each of those ), et. al.


I wonder... if the rimmed 9mm Federal cartridge had ever caught on (it didn't - it died an ignominious death about the time I bought a 9mm Federal "Pit Bull" revolver ), maybe there would have been a lever-gun in 9mm Federal?...
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:51:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:18:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 11:19:33 AM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:19:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.




I think we're missing each other. The BLR has a detachable box magazine, the 99 I believe has a fixed rotary magazine. They both handle rimless cases and spitzer ammunition just fine.



Yes, all TUBULAR magazine lever rifles typically use blunt, lead-tipped bullets. No spitzer/spire or otherwise pointed bullets in the traditional tubular magazine rifles.

The Savage 99 was also made with a removable box magazine. 99 C, I believe.

Not only recoil but also acidental dropping of the rifle must be considered now.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:13:40 PM EDT
Solution....

9mm AR
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:21:51 PM EDT
Because there are better 9mm carbines around.




Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:31:59 PM EDT
I think a 9mm lever action would sell about as good as insulated coveralls in the tropics.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:27:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:


Yes, it has happened in .30-30s. I doubt a 9mm FMJ would do it.



I read up on this once and couldn't find that it had happened with any round, where did you hear/see that? Do you remember?


Pretty good hi-jack, eh?


I think a 9mm lever lacks a certain traditionalist appeal caliber wise. .38 isn't exactly a cowboy round but at least it's a good ole american round!



I believe Precision Shooting or The Accurate Rifle did an article about a year ago. IIRC, Mic McPherson was the author and came to the conclusion that yes, recoil could cause detonation.

SRM
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:41:24 PM EDT
I shoot a Rossi made 44-40. 20" heavy barrel. I can free hand a coffee can at 100 yards consitantly. On bags I can do about a 4 inch group - that is with iron sights (abet a marble front, and marble tang). My eyes are probably the limiting factor there. YRMV.

I have heard that 44-40 is an inhearently accurate round. Likewise, I suspect that banded barrel Winchester 94's might have some inhearent accuracy issues (which might cost them an inch or 2 at 100 yards. Why a scooped Marlin can not do better baffels me, I can do about that with standard iron on my 95cb (26 inch barrel helps out its sighting radious).

I have seen reports of using Lead Round nose ammo in a 30-30 (as apposed to fmj) not sure what the hive thinks of that.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:33:19 PM EDT
Savage 99's use a rimed cartridge and since it is rotary or mag it uses spitzer bullets!!!

I believe its first offering was in 300 sav,mine is in .308 win,and I can assure you it is a rimed cartridge!!!

The BLR is also the same!!! I have a Win in .38 cal(.375 Win)I know its more like a 38-55 but still 38 cal!!

I believe Highpoint and Marlin camp rifles have the market covered quite well!!!

Bob
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:36:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:37:27 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By vito113:
Get a .357 one, same size bullet, more bang!

ANdy



BINGO

And this is why there would be no market for a 9mm carbine. Most people are not going to buy a 9mm when .357/.38 special rifle with do the same job better.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:38:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4-AK:
With the price of 9mm at $3.86 per box in Acadamy stores, what a great cartridge for the lever action. Is is possible for the action to feed a 9mm cartridge rim?

M4-AK



I have a Rossi .45 Colt lever gun. Reloading lead bullets makes this gun cheap to shoot. Hits harder than 9mm would also. Reloading opens up a lot of possibilities.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:48:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.




Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:53:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mjrowley:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.







Splain please.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:56:28 PM EDT
The 35 Remington is a bottlenecked or at least tapered cartridge. Those features make save it when using a rimless cartridge in a lever rifle.

Off the top of my head I also think the 9 may be just too short to get too work successfully in most current lever designs without a whole lot of engineering work, and that's just to gain possibly one round over 38s in a similar length tube and maybe 2 more than a 357. Try a Win 94 in 44 Mag or 45 Colt and the action just isn't smooth. Then try just about any lever rifle chambered in a cartridge the correct length for the action as designed.

There have been some primer mishaps at some of the Cowboy Action shoots. Not many when you look at the number of rounds fired annually at all the cowboy shoots through lever rifles, but enough for the Cowboy world to discourage highly the use of anything but flat points in tube magazines. And those may have been more a problem with high primers but why not eliminate a potential problem? Now if you want to put your face down there and hand around the forend risking an admittedly extremely low probability mishap. Be my guest.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:01:57 PM EDT
9mm lever gun? for the same reason they don't make them in 32 auto 38 super, 10 mm 40 S&W and .45 ACP. Dumb idea, and yes round nose bullets will cause detenation in a tube type Magazine. Just read the owners manual for ANY lever gun with a tube type Magazine it says DO NOT USE pointed or round nose bullets, as they may cause detonation of all of the rounds in the tube! I have a Speer reloading manual #7 that show the results of using round nose bullets in a tube Magazine. Messy!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:06:23 PM EDT
Come on guys let mjrowley explain his claim of BS.
CH
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:28:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
9mm lever gun? for the same reason they don't make them in 32 auto 38 super, 10 mm 40 S&W and .45 ACP. Dumb idea, and yes round nose bullets will cause detenation in a tube type Magazine. Just read the owners manual for ANY lever gun with a tube type Magazine it says DO NOT USE pointed or round nose bullets, as they may cause detonation of all of the rounds in the tube! I have a Speer reloading manual #7 that show the results of using round nose bullets in a tube Magazine. Messy!



Do you have any idea how hard a hit it would take for a roundnose bullet to set off a primer?

Maybe if you dropped it off a five story building and it landed on the muzzle....With a handgun round like the 9mm or 45, there is no recoil to speak of, no force, nothing to set off a round in the tube.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:58:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NH_AR_Shooter:

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
9mm lever gun? for the same reason they don't make them in 32 auto 38 super, 10 mm 40 S&W and .45 ACP. Dumb idea, and yes round nose bullets will cause detenation in a tube type Magazine. Just read the owners manual for ANY lever gun with a tube type Magazine it says DO NOT USE pointed or round nose bullets, as they may cause detonation of all of the rounds in the tube! I have a Speer reloading manual #7 that show the results of using round nose bullets in a tube Magazine. Messy!



Do you have any idea how hard a hit it would take for a roundnose bullet to set off a primer?

Maybe if you dropped it off a five story building and it landed on the muzzle....With a handgun round like the 9mm or 45, there is no recoil to speak of, no force, nothing to set off a round in the tube.



Yes as a matter of fact it only takes 7 ft lbs of force to set off a primer. Do you have to drop your gun on its hammer from a five story building to make it go off? Lets not get stupid about this. Reserch and you wil find out that it is Very dangerous to load pointed and round nose bullets in a tube magazine. I have been shooting and reloading for over 39 years, I know what I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:00:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mjrowley:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:

Originally Posted By Javak:

.38 is rimmed, 9mm is not. It's just the nature of the beast that rimless doesn't work well in a lever gun.



It can be done, the Browning BLR and the Savage 99 are examples of lever guns chambered for rimless cartridges. The difference is the magazine.



Liability. All lever action rounds are loaded with blunt, lead-tipped bullets. 9mm has FMJ, NOT a good combination for a tube magazine.









I just don't believe you, so i'm saying BS. Can you prove it?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:15:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:

Originally Posted By NH_AR_Shooter:

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
9mm lever gun? for the same reason they don't make them in 32 auto 38 super, 10 mm 40 S&W and .45 ACP. Dumb idea, and yes round nose bullets will cause detenation in a tube type Magazine. Just read the owners manual for ANY lever gun with a tube type Magazine it says DO NOT USE pointed or round nose bullets, as they may cause detonation of all of the rounds in the tube! I have a Speer reloading manual #7 that show the results of using round nose bullets in a tube Magazine. Messy!



Do you have any idea how hard a hit it would take for a roundnose bullet to set off a primer?

Maybe if you dropped it off a five story building and it landed on the muzzle....With a handgun round like the 9mm or 45, there is no recoil to speak of, no force, nothing to set off a round in the tube.



Yes as a matter of fact it only takes 7 ft lbs of force to set off a primer. Do you have to drop your gun on its hammer from a five story building to make it go off? Lets not get stupid about this. Reserch and you wil find out that it is Very dangerous to load pointed and round nose bullets in a tube magazine. I have been shooting and reloading for over 39 years, I know what I'm talking about.



Yes with a freaking firing pin, not a round nose bullet, and you're not the only one whos been around shooting for a long time, aside from rigged deliberate demonstrations of this danger I have never seen it happen or have ever heard of it happening with a round nose. Spire points are a different story, but still unlikely. The evidence of this is how few people have blown themselves up in this fashion, depite the numbers of idiots capable of loading incorrect bullets for their 30-30s.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:28:29 PM EDT
Let me say first off that this is a fine thread. I also hope noone gets pissed at me for chiming in. I personally think(my opinion means nothing) that maybe the gun manufacturers haven't built a levergun in 9mm because there is no market for such a thing. I mean most folks that buy a lever gun do so because they are using it for some sort of hunting purpose. A 9mm is not what I would take out in the brush with me but at the same time I would not feel undergunned with a 357 mag from a levergun. I have shot a 44 mag through a levergun and was actually quite surprised with it. So I don't think handgun rds are out of the question through a levergun. The second big use for leverguns anymore is the cowboy action scene. I just don't think that traditionalists would want to use a 9mm in that fashion. I don't think I would. I have also fired 22 rimfire in leverguns and had a blast doing so, but yet again it is a more traditional method of feeding a levergun. A buddy of mine has an old 22cal singleshot lever action that is a good example of this. The thing just shoots great and is a whole lot quicker to 'bear' than a bolt action single shot, it's a real challenge for squirrel hunting with too. Well anyway there you have it. That is my know nothing take on the 9mm in lever action. I think there are companies that do make the 9mm in autoloading carbines though. I think high-point makes one that is pretty cheap. My uncle has one. It shoots well actually, I just don't like the cheap feel to it. I believe, (if I am not wrong) that Baretta Storm can fire a 9mm as well. And we all know the AR-15 can be chambered for 9mm as well. And with that what more could you really want out of a 9mm carbine? Surely not a levergun in 9mm. That would probably make John Wayne roll over in his grave!

Anyway, whatever floats your boat,
Wes
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:42:34 PM EDT
Instruction manual, page # 7 Winchester Model 94 with top tang saftey.
Go to the Winchester web site and see for yourself.

IMPORTANT
Use only ammunition sutable for use in a centerfire rifle with a tubular magazine.
Use only flat point, hollow point, round nose flat point, or similar bullets.
Never use pointed or conical point bullets in a center fire rifle with a tubular magazine
failure to follow these instructions may result in injury to yourself, others,
or cause damage to your gun.


And yes it was high lighted in red.
And this warning was for all models in all calibers
So you go ahead and load up your round nose in your tube magazines, I've kept all my finger and apendages for 58 years. I don't believe you are the type that will.Just hope you don't hurt any one else in the process.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:48:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:55:08 PM EDT
I would like a 9mm Ruger carbine if I was looking for a 9mm rifle, But for lever action I would love a Marlin or winchester in .357.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:06:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
Instruction manual, page # 7 Winchester Model 94 with top tang saftey.
Go to the Winchester web site and see for yourself.

IMPORTANT
Use only ammunition sutable for use in a centerfire rifle with a tubular magazine.
Use only flat point, hollow point, round nose flat point, or similar bullets.
Never use pointed or conical point bullets in a center fire rifle with a tubular magazine
failure to follow these instructions may result in injury to yourself, others,
or cause damage to your gun.


And yes it was high lighted in red.
And this warning was for all models in all calibers
So you go ahead and load up your round nose in your tube magazines, I've kept all my finger and apendages for 58 years. I don't believe you are the type that will.Just hope you don't hurt any one else in the process.



What you believe is irrelevant, you dont know me, I do not use or advocate using incorrect ammunition, I do object to exaggeration based on printed warnings from firearms companys, BS rumors, totaly without any real world instances of this happening. As to being injured by a firearm, I have nearly been shot by an old fart, who had been reloading and shooting longer than I've been alive...he still had all his fingers....I almost had a large hole in my head...so much that type of shooter.

I challenge anyone to present even one instance of a pistol caliber lever gun having a round go off in the magazine tube, as a result of a round nose bullet striking a primer, either from recoil or dropping the rifle. Don't talk to me about some rigged demonstration.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:14:10 PM EDT
In a tube mag, what would hit the primer of the round in front of it with more force from recoil?

- .30-30 soft point

- 9mm round nose FMJ

How come it's okay to use a .30-30 soft point, but not a 9mm FMJ?

WTF?

I'm sure a 9mm lever action would be perfectly safe with any 9mm ammo.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:14:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NH_AR_Shooter:

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
Instruction manual, page # 7 Winchester Model 94 with top tang saftey.
Go to the Winchester web site and see for yourself.

IMPORTANT
Use only ammunition sutable for use in a centerfire rifle with a tubular magazine.
Use only flat point, hollow point, round nose flat point, or similar bullets.
Never use pointed or conical point bullets in a center fire rifle with a tubular magazine
failure to follow these instructions may result in injury to yourself, others,
or cause damage to your gun.


And yes it was high lighted in red.
And this warning was for all models in all calibers
So you go ahead and load up your round nose in your tube magazines, I've kept all my finger and apendages for 58 years. I don't believe you are the type that will.Just hope you don't hurt any one else in the process.



What you believe is irrelevant, you dont know me, I do not use or advocate using incorrect ammunition, I do object to exaggeration based on printed warnings from firearms companys, BS rumors, totaly without any real world instances of this happening. As to being injured by a firearm, I have nearly been shot by an old fart, who had been reloading and shooting longer than I've been alive...he still had all his fingers....I almost had a large hole in my head...so much that type of shooter.

I challenge anyone to present even one instance of a pistol caliber lever gun having a round go off in the magazine tube, as a result of a round nose bullet striking a primer, either from recoil or dropping the rifle. Don't talk to me about some rigged demonstration.


Ok you don't read the manuals cause they are Exaggerations? Old fart? grow up.

I'm done, you win whatever, have a good life.
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