User Panel
Posted: 2/27/2006 7:26:54 AM EDT
So now Bush is going to get it from the right and the left.
I do not know if WFB is correct, but it certainly is a blow to the administration when perhaps the premier conservative spokesperson is jumping ship. I doubt our political culture is really up to any difficult task. Perhaps Afghanistan and Iraq were aberations, and we will now go back to empty threats and blowing up tents with cruise missiles. |
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
And there's ALOT of opinions out there that don't seem to remember WWII. |
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The Sunni's and the Shiite's are killing each other. How is this a "defeat"?
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Buckley is getting senile. Plus the idea that in 2 years we can totally eliminate thousands of years of religious and sectarian strife is fucking stupid.
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Actually, I've never regarded Buckley as that much of a conservative. Yes, he puts himself up as the leader of the Conservatives, but he really is just a fuzzy self-styled intellectual who pontificates, but has no real solidity to him. He can talk in debating clubs, but it is all an intellectual exercise, a proposition, not a position. Possibly a more refined version of Bill O'reilly (although Mr. O'Reilly seems to have more belief in his positions), with a bit of Schwarzenegger RINO thrown in the mix.
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I abandoned this postulate quite some time ago. I wouldn't say that my opinion is philosophical despair, just a reawakening to the old colonialist view that some cultures are populated by barbarians who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable, peaceable government. Iraqi culture is one of those cultures. In making the comparison to WWII, I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis are. |
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I don't think you can argue with him too much. Note he says, "America's objective in Iraq has failed." I agree with that sentiment regardless of which objective you signed on for. Anyone would have to admit that our single objective (WMD) has morphed as conditions have changed (into Democracy, etc.). I've been willing to go along because the goal was noble. However, we underestimate these "peoples'" hatred for one another. We have failed to supplant religious rivalry with democratic ideals.
I don't say, nor does Buckley, that we should cut and run. At the same time we must not continue to talk of how great it's all working for them when the facts show otherwise. Hell, at times I expect to turn on Fox News and see Baghdad Bob as their newest field reporter, "Democracy is really taking hold. Reports of violence are simply falsehoods. Peace is all there is in Iraq." At the same time someone is beheaded in the background. |
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Excellent point. |
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Well I guess that's it. Throw your hands up in the air boys, we're heading home.
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You've done this kind of general bash for the last time here. |
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Sectarian violence will not be contained
American support will wane as time goes on. The major parallel between Iraq and Nam is that if Iraq is lost it iwll be primarily lost right here in the US. Hopefully our mission will suceed(and I never thought it was about WMDs from the beginning) but I see the ME becoming more violent, not less so and when the SHTF it is going to get really, really ugly. The death and destruction that the nations of Islam bring upon themsleves will be horrendous indeed. |
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LOL I agree. I watched a debate on the existence of God that Buckley moderated, and I couldn't make out half of what he said through that accent. I don't think the scolars (who were debating each other) could either, by the looks on their faces and their delayed responses to Buckley. |
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Buckley wants to be regarded as a Walter Cronkite. "We have lost the war in Vietnam"
William Buckley is waaaay too full of himself. |
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He's certainly full of something. <shrug> |
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If they acheive true democratic process in Iraq, we will not like the results. They will vote in a faction just as violent as Hamas. Or what we have in Iran. The problem is not the lack of free elections. The problem is the basic tenets of Islam. True Wahabi Islam cannot co-exist with Western society. It never has and it never will.
And those two sects have been warring with each other since 700 AD (or thereabouts). A ballot box will not stop it. I beleive that the experiement in democracy will fail in the Middle East. |
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Fixed. There is one answer here: balkanize the place. Turkey can kiss our asses if they don't want NewKurdistan on their border. |
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Who? Is that the kid that bags my groceries at the supermarket? |
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We have actually already won. Iraqis love us and, more importantly, we love them. Oil is presently paying for the entire war. There is nothing else going on in the world for us to be worried about. The homeland is secure. The influx of non-skilled and non-English speaking migrants is a huge benefit to our first world economy. Health care is great and getting better and less expensive by the day.
Fox News ROCKS. |
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Yeah really, Whats up with that????? He has the most phoney "wasp" accent i've ever heard. He's like Madonna! lol! another diva with a superiority complex. |
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Oh come on now, you can troll a bit less obvious than that! |
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Arab countires perhaps, muslim is to broad a term. ie Turkey is managing very well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: I would say that the hardiness and values of the surviving German and Japanese peoples,cleansed of their fascism, were adequate to the task of recreating civilized nations. They aren't crippled by their own culture as Iraqis Muslims are. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent point. |
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Agreeing with William F. Buckley puts you at risk of being called a troll? Wow. The Neocons are working overtime at their/your Kool-Aid factory. |
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I agree with you. It is unfortunate, and not "nice" or PC, but there are some people who simply cannot govern themselves or get out of a middle ages mentality, no matter how much schooling they have. It is equally unfortunate for young Americans that some people think that all we have to do is go in, wave a magic wand and , Voila, everyone is ready for a democratic form of government: the American mistake that everyone can or wants to live as we do. Some peoples simply need to have a dictator. No, not pretty, or pleasant, but true. Force is all that works. Can't be helped, and that's the way it is. I am sorry that liberalism ever took hold in some countries. Sure, it sounds nice, but the world was more peaceful when a British Army was over some of these characters. Maybe in aggregate there was some violence, but it was THERE and not HERE. When the Middle East was under strict control, the kind only a British Officer can impose (say, Kitchener, for example) these people could kill themselves and could not affect others. But, everyone wants to be "nice", so here they are , killing us. |
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'Democracy' is not the 'natural state of man'..... Iraq has proven what many of us knew to be self evident.
'Democracy' is actually an aberration in the history of mankind. It was invented by the Greeks in ancient times and then fell into disuse. For most of human history, despotism and dictaorship has been the natural way of the world. Democracy reemerged in the Middle Ages in England with Magna Carta in 1215 that laid down certain 'Rights' for the common man. The Rights were fundemental to the world we now live in, rights such as Habeaus Corpus and the right to a trial by a jury of your peers come from Magna Carta . Those rights had to be defended yet again in the English Civil War of 1642 when the concept of 'Divine Right to Rule' by Kings was challenged by the Parliamentary Forces who believed that a democratically elected body had the sole right to rule 'the people'. From that Civil War sprang the primacy of Parliamentary Democracy, the concept was also taken to the New World were it also took root. Until recent history, the ideal of representative democracy' was a feature of the Anglosphere', Britain, The United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Only in the last 100 years have the right of the 'common man' to vote and be granted a fair trial, rights that have existed in the 'English Speaking' world since Magna Carta come to even the 'civilised' European countries. Democracy can only exist when there is a codified and recognized seperation of Church and State, were a court of law is the final arbiter of what is 'Right' or 'Wrong'. This is impossible in an Islamic country were the Koran is regarded as the immutable word of God and is the final word on all matters. Andy |
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I'd say that the Japanese and German cultures were pretty sick too, given the horrible atrocities committed by both countries. Perhaps a bigger difference is that in WWII we demonstrated complete ruthlessness, intentionally killing millions of their civilians without remorse. We had great power, as well as the desire to win at any cost. The Germans and Japanese understood that thet their choice was either submission or complete anhialation. That is clearly not the case now. I'm sure the Arabs find our 'measured responses' and concern with 'collateral damage' laughable. We may be powerful, but we obviously do not have the will to win. |
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Seems normal to me. It's the way I sound, well maybe I'm a bit less pronounced, but it's there. |
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Note that I did not include "Muslim" in my original post,since Iraq was the pertinent topic. That was a later edited text by someone else. I wouldn't even say "Arab". Bahrain, Dubai,Kuwait,etc are all Arabic and do quite well as reasonably civilized governments. The rest of the Saudi peninsula is a bit questionable. Note however that most of these countries have done well by either having practically secular populations, or by keeping their faith and government seperate (Turkey). Most of Iraq has refused to do that. They need their own 'Attaturk' in their government,and he hasn't been forthcoming yet. |
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I agree with this statement. I have been saying this since the first talk of us invading Iraq came around. As much as everyone hated Saddam, he ensured relative stability in the region. He was able to fight with Iran to a stalemate, and the Saudi's and Afghan's were afraid of him. We hated Iran much more than him, which is why when we invaded in 1991 we were facing an army that we had helped to finance up to that point. With Saddam gone, it will take a miracle to fend off the Iranians once we leave. So unfortunately either we are stuck in Iraq, or soon after we leave we will be facing a much more powerful Iran...... |
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And the latest Commission on Social Security will make recommendations the Congress will carry out and save the day! Damn, we really need a Tongue In Cheek emoticon. |
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They were evil, but within 5 years of the war, their evil actions and cultural values (such as the genocide and persecution of the Jews) were gone from the bulk of their society,mostly as a result of actions by their own civil government. The thoughts may have remained,but something we did, or something within their culture ended that behavior. Anyway, there was change,which is lacking in Iraq.... Your point about the Arab view of our responses is interesting. Notice that as this war has progressed they have learned to begin manipulating our consciences and morals against us,regardless of whether or not they actually share or practice those values at large in their culture. They hold us to our own standard,regardless of whether or not they share it. I think that's symptomatic of their viewing us as foolish and weak. Ridiculing mercy seems unwise however.... |
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The cultural differences cannot be underestimated. For one thing, neither Japan nor Germany were split among tribal/religious lines the way Iraq is. Plus there is the cultural inclination of both the Germans and Japanese to do what their gov't tells them to do. And their gov'ts surrendered. Iraq never surrendered that I remember. There was no turning over of power to the US/Coalition. Only Japan comes close to the religious aspects, but the Emperor came on the radio and told them he wasn't a god. And the Muslims hold to their racial/religious superiority. Germany and Japan faced the distruction of that belief after the war. One of the problems is that while we may have defeated Saddam and Iraq, most of those people identify themselves with ther clan or Sunni/Shia. And we did not defeat all of them. Plus Saddam was a godless infidel who got what he deserved. Allah still loves them and wants them to kill all the Westerners unless they give up McDonalds and make their women wear sheets. |
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That's why Caesar made those who lost to him march under the yoke: they had to understand fully that they lost.
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you guys really have NO clue of Buckley's childhood ! |
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