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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/21/2003 6:12:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 7:17:21 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 6:38:52 PM EDT
Nothing new here.

The lines between the right wing and left wing are often blurred.

One of the finest examples being the third reich (I hope I don't have to go into a history lesson here). In fact it often amazes me how much the left wing uses the term "nazi" when in fact much of their socialist agenda would fall under some of the third reich ideology.



I hate to quote The Dead Kennedys here, but I think they said it best with:



"How many liberators really want to be dictators"



Yup, there are power hungry people on both sides.



Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:17:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:23:58 PM EDT
I'm not surprised that there are people at opposite ends of the idealogical spectrum who are equally alarmed at some of the shenanigans our government is trying to pull.

Nobody wants a dictatorship except the would-be dictator and his cronies.


You know you're dealing with a hard left liberal when he complains about the "right wing bias" of National Public radio.

But at least that makes me think that NPR is at least ONE step closer to the middle than to the far left.

CJ
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:57:55 PM EDT
Civil War in 2005...ammo up yawl!
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:07:26 PM EDT
I have stated in this and other politically oriented forums that the spectrum is not linear at all. It is circular and the extreme ends always meet. There is little difference at all in the fears, beliefs and methods of the far left and far right.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:52:39 PM EDT
I disagree.

In general;

The far left believes that life begins and ends with the government. That it should guide you and hold your hand and tell you what to do, and provide everything for you, from food and shelter to protection, from cradle to grave, and even beyond, if it can ever figure out how to manage that trick.

The far right believes that the government should have as little to do with the lives of the people as is possible and still get certain essential tasks done. That people are responsible for their own actions and their own destinies. Sink or swim, you're on your own. You are responsible for your livelihood, your survival, and your own protection.


I can't see these two as being the same in any relevant way.

CJ
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:06:59 PM EDT
The left/right political spectrum is a false one. I know that its origins lie with the seating chart for the revolutionary French Assembly (I shit you not.) but as it's presently presented, it is basically a dodge which allows "liberals" to push Saddam, Hitler, & the like into "our camp" - and gives them a place to push their darlings like Stalin & Mao when they finally smell too bad to keep around the liberal house.

The real division is between (pick your own terms) libertarianism on the one end and statism on the other. Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, & Ho Chi Minh all belong in the same stockade and on the same end of the political spectrum. They followed different bogus ideologies to the same end - the diminution of individual liberty and the increase of state power. This means that Pete Seeger, FDR, Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi should be placed toward the Hitler-Pol Pot-Stalin end of the spectrum, while Ronald Reagan, GW and I go closer to the Jefferson-Paine-Henry end.

The extremes do meet, but only because they always have been the same thing. Remember the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact every time you start thinking in terms of "left" and "right," and remeber who in America was blowing Stalin and who Hitler when that pact was signed.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:16:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By siennfein:
Civil War in 2005...ammo up yawl!



Hell yes! Where do I sign up for the shotgun infantry!
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:31:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I disagree.

In general;

The far left believes that life begins and ends with the government. That it should guide you and hold your hand and tell you what to do, and provide everything for you, from food and shelter to protection, from cradle to grave, and even beyond, if it can ever figure out how to manage that trick.

The far right believes that the government should have as little to do with the lives of the people as is possible and still get certain essential tasks done. That people are responsible for their own actions and their own destinies. Sink or swim, you're on your own. You are responsible for your livelihood, your survival, and your own protection.


I can't see these two as being the same in any relevant way.

CJ



SteyrAUG does not mean 'meet' as in 'to meet kindly' or 'to agree' but to 'face each other head on in the midst of BATTLE.'
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:54:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 10:24:04 PM EDT
The problem people are having is that there isnt one line (or circle, or whatever) there are two.

The first line it the 'economic' (or property) line which goes from communism (where no one owns anything, but rather, everyone owns everything) to individualism (where you own what you own).

The other line is 'freedom' (or personal liberty) line, with statism (which total government -of anytype- authority over every action of each of the people) on one end and anarchy (where there literally is no government, each individual is his/her own country as it were) on the other.

socialism is 'statist communism' (the state owns and controls everything), fascism is 'statist individualism' (the indivudal owns things, but can only do with them what the state says they can do), the 'wild west' (as portrayed in alot of movies) would be 'individualist-anarchy' (do whatever the ef you want to with your stuff), the hippy communes would be an example of 'communist-anarchy' (do whatever you want with anything).


Link Posted: 11/21/2003 10:53:26 PM EDT
Our Libertarian brothers here may disagree, but one of the reasons they can't get any traction is because their gun freedom, drug freedom, economic freedom, and environmental freedom platform is at odds with itself.

It's a shame too, because freedom is a beautiful thing. (until human nature steps in and ruins it)
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 5:25:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I'm not surprised that there are people at opposite ends of the idealogical spectrum who are equally alarmed at some of the shenanigans our government is trying to pull.



No, you've just proven yourself to be one of the people who are so far right that you're left.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 5:44:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
...I have seen a LOT of guys on the far right who very much believe in big government. Just 'their' kind of big government.



Me, too.

This arises from people not being totally in touch with their true feelings and/or not being too scrupulous about formulating a clear, concise, and most especially CONSISTENT view of what they think government's powers and responsibilities should be.

I think I'm pretty clear on my own issues in that regard, but not totally. I admit, I'm not quite sure how my stance on the abortion issue (I'm pro choice) integrates into my other mostly right wing positions.

I am truly more of a libertarian than anything else. I believe in minimal government intervention in the people's lives, and I believe that government must serve a useful purpose by facilitating actions that require massive organization. And I believe in freedom and individual liberty first and foremost. I believe even that a person should be allowed to do as he pleases so long as his actions do no harm to anyone but himself. And I'm not quite settled on how my abortion rights stance integrates into this. I admit that. But please, let's not get into that particular issue because I don't want to kill this thread and we've had recent topics cover it pretty well already. Let's stick to the subject...PLEASE.
I'm done with mentioning that particular issue in this topic.

CJ
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 5:59:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I disagree.

In general;

The far left believes that life begins and ends with the government. That it should guide you and hold your hand and tell you what to do, and provide everything for you, from food and shelter to protection, from cradle to grave, and even beyond, if it can ever figure out how to manage that trick.

The far right believes that the government should have as little to do with the lives of the people as is possible and still get certain essential tasks done. That people are responsible for their own actions and their own destinies. Sink or swim, you're on your own. You are responsible for your livelihood, your survival, and your own protection.


I can't see these two as being the same in any relevant way.

CJ





You're right, they're not the same at all.. The folks setting our foreign policy, are for the most part, in agreement with the "so-called" "christian right".

NEITHER Falwell, OR the 700 club crowd, are plugged into the "Christian Right"..

I find it interesting, that some on this thread, don't know the difference between a Communist, and a Christian Patriot.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 7:30:12 AM EDT
Very interesting way to put it.

CJ
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 9:03:30 AM EDT
Thomas Sowell addressed the "Conflict of Visions" in a book.

Sowell, an economist and author (The Economics and Politics of Race, etc.), presents a provocative analysis of the conflicting visions of human nature that have shaped the moral, legal and economic life of recent times. For the past 200 years, he writes, two visions ofor "gut feelings" abouthow the world works, have dominated: the constrained vision, which views man as unchanged, limited and dependent on evolved social processes (market economies, constitutional law, etc.); and the unconstrained vision, which argues for man's potential and perfectability, and the possibility of rational planning for social solutions. Examining the views of thinkers who reflect these constrained (Adam Smith) and unconstrained (William Godwin) visions, Sowell shows how these powerful and subjective visions give rise to carefully constructed social theories. His discussion of how these conflicting attitudes ultimately produce clashes over equality, social justice and other issues is instructive.

I also think the book "The God in the Machine" by Isabel Paterson explains very well how Christianity fits into the blend of capitalism and our Constitutional Republic sort of like a 3 legged stool.

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