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Posted: 1/17/2015 1:45:53 AM EST
Very curious

will they stop selling them?
Will they sue ?
Will they change them somehow?

Will they release the chin or chest brace?

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:50:57 AM EST
They sell it as an arm brace, and it is legal as an arm brace. Why would Sig need to do anything?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:51:17 AM EST
Their design hasn't changed. The fact that ATF saying you use it in a different way == redesign has no impact on Sig.

Sig is still doing right, ATF are a bunch of jack dick fuck sticks.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 1:51:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 1:56:03 AM EST by Kubota3430]
I hope they comment at a minimum.

Sue them if possible for changing a ruling that has now financially harmed them.

Yes it is sold as an arm brace, but the ATF has fucked up the entire 'way you hold it' thing. This itself could potentially have far reaching implications.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:06:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kubota3430:
I hope they comment at a minimum.

Sue them if possible for changing a ruling that has now financially harmed them.

Yes it is sold as an arm brace, but the ATF has fucked up the entire 'way you hold it' thing. This itself could potentially have far reaching implications.
View Quote


I would hope that the right to keep and bear arms would imply that if its legal to keep its legal to bear and therefore the way you use it is irrelevant;however, judges and the federal continue to fuck us.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:19:53 AM EST
they will have do do something since that fucking letter they send out w/ the units has been invalidated or whatever, or they will be liable to getting sued by someone who getss arrested for shouldering ther product.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:22:38 AM EST
The ATF can collectively go choke themselves. Yes, that means you- Mr. ATF Men. You are bad and you should feel bad.



Oh, and NFA needs to be repealed. The Bill of Rights, what's that about?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:26:11 AM EST
They might. Unfortunately I can see the ATF ruling that it's a stock eventually.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:34:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 2:34:52 AM EST by familyman357]
They will say nothing. If they do, it will be to affirm its use only as an arm brace.

They presented it as an arm brace.

They sell it as an arm brace.

If they comment in a way that in any way defends it as being an end-run around the NFA, the implication is that they were disingenuous from the start.

There is no upside to doing anything other than affirming the BATFE's opinion, if they comment at all.

If you think Sig is going to openly oppose the BATFE's opinion, you're high.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:35:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By familyman357:
They will say nothing. If they do, it will be to affirm its use only as an arm brace.

They presented it as an arm brace.

They sell it as an arm brace.

If they comment in a way that in any way defends it as being an end-run around the NFA, the implication is that they were disingenuous from the start.

There is no upside to doing anything other than affirming the BATFE's opinion, if they comment at all.

If you think Sig is going to openly oppose the BATFE's opinion, you're high.
View Quote


Except the letter Sig has from the ATF is no longer valid.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:40:02 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:

Except the letter Sig has from the ATF is no longer valid.
View Quote


Exactly. They know that if they want to continue to sell the arm brace, they're not going to go poking the BATFE bear. They're just one opinion letter away from not being able to sell it as a pistol accessory and nobody with a rifle has a use for it.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:42:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FNH:
They might. Unfortunately I can see the ATF ruling that it's a stock eventually.
View Quote


The BATFE has opined that if the arm brace is shouldered, the very act itself redesigns the arm brace into a stock. We're pretty much there already.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:44:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rw3045:
They sell it as an arm brace, and it is legal as an arm brace. Why would Sig need to do anything?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote

FPNI
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:46:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 2:48:28 AM EST by RJeff21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By familyman357:
They will say nothing. If they do, it will be to affirm its use only as an arm brace.

They presented it as an arm brace.

They sell it as an arm brace.

If they comment in a way that in any way defends it as being an end-run around the NFA, the implication is that they were disingenuous from the start.

There is no upside to doing anything other than affirming the BATFE's opinion, if they comment at all.

If you think Sig is going to openly oppose the BATFE's opinion, you're high.
View Quote


Sig probably won't say a damn thing. They definitely won't be suing anybody over this specific issue.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:47:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:


Except the letter Sig has from the ATF is no longer valid.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
Originally Posted By familyman357:
They will say nothing. If they do, it will be to affirm its use only as an arm brace.

They presented it as an arm brace.

They sell it as an arm brace.

If they comment in a way that in any way defends it as being an end-run around the NFA, the implication is that they were disingenuous from the start.

There is no upside to doing anything other than affirming the BATFE's opinion, if they comment at all.

If you think Sig is going to openly oppose the BATFE's opinion, you're high.


Except the letter Sig has from the ATF is no longer valid.


After reading both, I don't see how anything has changed from Sig's perspective (other than follow-on sales volume)

It was approved as a legal one-handed forearm support, and continues to be after the most recent letter.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:50:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JSmithXYY:
they will have do do something since that fucking letter they send out w/ the units has been invalidated or whatever, or they will be liable to getting sued by someone who getss arrested for shouldering ther product.
View Quote


Last I checked, the original letter they included talks about using the brace as designed, a brace that straps to your forearm to aid your ability to shoot an akward "pistol" one handed.

Nothing in that letter said anything about it being OK to shoulder.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 2:53:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


Last I checked, the original letter they included talks about using the brace as designed, a brace that straps to your forearm to aid your ability to shoot an akward "pistol" one handed.

Nothing in that letter said anything about it being OK to shoulder.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By JSmithXYY:
they will have do do something since that fucking letter they send out w/ the units has been invalidated or whatever, or they will be liable to getting sued by someone who getss arrested for shouldering ther product.


Last I checked, the original letter they included talks about using the brace as designed, a brace that straps to your forearm to aid your ability to shoot an akward "pistol" one handed.

Nothing in that letter said anything about it being OK to shoulder.



This.


Reading is faggots.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 3:00:33 AM EST
Sig will probably discontinue the product since no one is going to buy it now.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 3:03:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By realwar:
Sig will probably discontinue the product since no one is going to buy it now.
View Quote


Peak Sig Brace?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 3:57:53 AM EST
I'm guessing sales will decline and the product will soon no longer be offered, due to limited demand.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:14:53 AM EST
It's still cool to shoulder-up a receiver extension tube? For right now this week?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:21:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jimhoff:
It's still cool to shoulder-up a receiver extension tube? For right now this week?
View Quote


untill there's 25+ threads on it. It g2g
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:26:09 AM EST
why do we have a new thread on this everyday?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:33:40 AM EST
Not the BATF's fault gun owners and their stupid letters pushed them and pushed them until they had to change the rules!

Well done dick heads
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:36:44 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By realwar:
Sig will probably discontinue the product since no one is going to buy it now.
View Quote

AIM surplus sold out last night.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:38:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:39:47 AM EST
I suspect they'll comment, sig has never been shy about taking on the ATF, hell sometimes I feel like sig trolls the ATF just for laughs
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:42:59 AM EST
That letter from the ATF to FFL dealers did not have my name on it.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:49:08 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By familyman357:


The BATFE has opined that if the arm brace is shouldered, the very act itself redesigns the arm brace into a stock. We're pretty much there already.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By familyman357:
Originally Posted By FNH:
They might. Unfortunately I can see the ATF ruling that it's a stock eventually.


The BATFE has opined that if the arm brace is shouldered, the very act itself redesigns the arm brace into a stock. We're pretty much there already.


So if you then go back to wrapping it around your forearm, it redesigns it back then right?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:51:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 10:30:03 AM EST by tcrpe]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kubota3430:
I hope they comment at a minimum.

Sue them if possible for changing a ruling that has now financially harmed them.

Yes it is sold as an arm brace, but the ATF has fucked up the entire 'way you hold it' thing. This itself could potentially have far reaching implications.
View Quote



Are you serious, or just trolling?



ETA: And, as with the bump fire stock, I see it has been linked to disabilities again.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:54:35 AM EST
There is no reason for SIG to comment because their original contention regarding the proper and legal use for their product remains unchanged.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:58:05 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
There is absolutely no reason for SIG to comment. I would be astonished if they did.
View Quote


There's plenty of reason for them to comment, this is going to severely impact their sales. The ATF being able to throw their customers in jail with an arbitrary determination is generally bad for business.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:58:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By BMGisbetter:
Very curious

will they stop selling them?
Will they sue ?
Will they change them somehow?

Will they release the chin or chest brace?

View Quote

Why in the heck would SIG do any of those? The ATF clarification has absolutely no bearing on SIG production or sales of the brace.

Originally Posted By rw3045:
They sell it as an arm brace, and it is legal as an arm brace. Why would Sig need to do anything?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote

This
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:09:22 AM EST
Sig can take out the letter they include and substitute with the new ruling.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:13:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:17:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:31:09 AM EST
Depends on what the definition of "shoulder" is.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:37:27 AM EST
This supposed letter opens a whole new can of worms.

I'm no lawyer, but legally it sounds

A wrench is a wrench when used to turn nuts and bolts.

A hammer is a hammer when used to hammer nails.

A wrench is now a hammer if you whack a nail with it.

It turns back into a wrench if you go back to turning nuts and bolts with it.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:44:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 10:47:24 AM EST by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:51:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 10:52:33 AM EST by waterglass]
I'd say they will make no comment because they cant control how other people use their product.

So long as you can strap the sig brace onto your arm and pull the trigger using a finger of the hand of the arm the brace is attached to, it is legal to shoulder a sig brace on a pistol.

What the ATF is saying is, if you use the sig brace as a stock, it becomes a stock.

You had better be able to use the sig brace as intended when you mount it to a pistol, or you will get raped.

That is what they are saying.

You could mount a stuffed monkey to a pistol for use as a stock and it would become a stock.

Alot of people are misreading what the ATF is saying.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:52:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 11:00:01 AM EST by Gator]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:



A more apt analogy would be a motor vehicle, since none of the tools you mentioned are regulated differently.

You can drive a 4-wheel ATV all you like on your personal property, but if you want to commute on public roads to work in it, then you are using it for a different function, and will then suddenly have to meet all kinds of legal requirements, including safety, emissions, etc - and you will have to pay various licensing fees and taxes that you didn't before.

The ATV hasn't changed, and is still a four-wheeled motor vehicles. But HOW YOU USE IT will determine what regulations, taxes, licenses, etc it is subject to.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Gator:
This supposed letter opens a whole new can of worms.

I'm no lawyer, but legally it sounds

A wrench is a wrench when used to turn nuts and bolts.

A hammer is a hammer when used to hammer nails.

A wrench is now a hammer if you whack a nail with it.

It turns back into a wrench if you go back to turning nuts and bolts with it.



A more apt analogy would be a motor vehicle, since none of the tools you mentioned are regulated differently.

You can drive a 4-wheel ATV all you like on your personal property, but if you want to commute on public roads to work in it, then you are using it for a different function, and will then suddenly have to meet all kinds of legal requirements, including safety, emissions, etc - and you will have to pay various licensing fees and taxes that you didn't before.

The ATV hasn't changed, and is still a four-wheeled motor vehicles. But HOW YOU USE IT will determine what regulations, taxes, licenses, etc it is subject to.


Not really.

There are no regulations to shoot a gun on private property.

Operating any motor vehicle on a public road is where the licensing comes in. Very similar analogy, if you own thousands of acres of land, you can drive around an unlicensed car, truck, or SUV to your hearts content on it. Once you go on a public road, your licensing & registration better be current.

ETA: You also didn't change the design or function of it. You're still using it to putter you ass about, only difference is where.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 10:58:35 AM EST
Lulz


Chin brace
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:01:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:


Sig probably won't say a damn thing. They definitely won't be suing anybody over this specific issue.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By familyman357:
They will say nothing. If they do, it will be to affirm its use only as an arm brace.

They presented it as an arm brace.

They sell it as an arm brace.

If they comment in a way that in any way defends it as being an end-run around the NFA, the implication is that they were disingenuous from the start.

There is no upside to doing anything other than affirming the BATFE's opinion, if they comment at all.

If you think Sig is going to openly oppose the BATFE's opinion, you're high.


Sig probably won't say a damn thing. They definitely won't be suing anybody over this specific issue.


Why not? Beretta sued the US Government for lost sales due to the government's own actions, and won.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:01:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:07:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:17:51 AM EST
Mag light is a silencer if missed used.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:18:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kubota3430:
I hope they comment at a minimum.

Sue them if possible for changing a ruling that has now financially harmed them.

Yes it is sold as an arm brace, but the ATF has fucked up the entire 'way you hold it' thing. This itself could potentially have far reaching implications.
View Quote


If you fire your rifle with one hand you just "redesigned" it to be a pistol. Since "once a rifle always a rifle" you now have to register it as an SBR.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:20:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 11:22:14 AM EST by waterglass]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bitmap:


If you fire your rifle with one hand you just "redesigned" it to be a pistol. Since "once a rifle always a rifle" you now have to register it as an SBR.
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Originally Posted By Bitmap:
Originally Posted By Kubota3430:
I hope they comment at a minimum.

Sue them if possible for changing a ruling that has now financially harmed them.

Yes it is sold as an arm brace, but the ATF has fucked up the entire 'way you hold it' thing. This itself could potentially have far reaching implications.


If you fire your rifle with one hand you just "redesigned" it to be a pistol. Since "once a rifle always a rifle" you now have to register it as an SBR.



That is not what these letters state. the ATF said if you put a sig brace on a pistol, and can't use it as intended, it becomes a stock.

you can shoulder a sig brace on a pistol if the it can be used as intended.

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:20:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:21:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By drok556:


untill there's 25+ threads on it. It g2g
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Originally Posted By drok556:
Originally Posted By jimhoff:
It's still cool to shoulder-up a receiver extension tube? For right now this week?


untill there's 25+ threads on it. It g2g



Did you read any of the stuff ATF has been sending out? Shouldering the buffer tube redesigns your pistol into an SBR by means of "intent."
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:25:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 11:26:41 AM EST by waterglass]
oops.
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