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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
3/10/2017 7:27:01 PM
Posted: 8/18/2004 4:17:15 PM EST
Was at the range today with my 18 yr old daughter. She was shooting one of my CZs with a CZ Cadet .22 conversion on it. She did not notice a squib round and the next pull of the trigger was a miniature kaboom.

Thank the Lord that she is okay. A little burning powder hit her, but I always make sure that anyone who shoots with me wears safety glasses.

One of the projectiles was actually half in and half out of the muzzle! I have not had a chance to fully inspect the Cadet conversion, but my CZ frame does have some damage. The trigger will not reset. I don't know if there is any additional damage to the frame, either.

If there is significant damage, should Remington pay since their product failed? It is the stuff that you can buy at Wally World for about $10 per 550 rounds.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:45:37 PM EST
First off, Glad your daughter was not hurt. now to the question at hand. I highly doubt that remington will pay. More than likely they will say that you failed to inspect the barrel, there for you are responsible. I know it sucks, but I'm sure I won't be the only one to say it. I hope they will fix your pistol and the conversion, Please keep us up to date on what remington says and/or does.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:53:35 PM EST
Glad your family is ok - that could have been MUCH worse. Regarding making remington pay, that question is inconsistent with the rampant opinion in this forum that lawyers are thieves and all plaintiffs liars.

And if you think Remington is going to just voluntarily do "the right thing" then you have some learnin' to do.

My rules are:
Private industry won't protect you;
Government can't;

Take courts out of the system and you are without recourse. But if you were to sue over such a minor thing, you would be labeled along with the hot coffee case or the McDonalds "fat" case.

Sorry for the rant - no they won't fix it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:54:18 PM EST
I'm shocked the squib was able to cycle the gun.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:55:03 PM EST
Glad your daughter is OK, good luck getting anything out of Remington. Keep us posted.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:57:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:
I'm shocked the squib was able to cycle the gun.



Maybe it didnt. Maybe the little girl pulled the trigger and nothing happened then she racked the slide. Or maybe it was a revolver.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:05:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:06:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:
I'm shocked the squib was able to cycle the gun.



I had not thought of that. It does seem odd. What else could get a round stuck in the barrel? It had been shooting fine. She didn't rack the slide back. It did cycle. Of course, isn't that true of some squib rounds? Can't some generate enough energy to cycle without the projectile exiting the barrel?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:11:16 PM EST
I understand you guys answering as you have...

But haven't some ammo manufacturers paid to repair guns when their product caused a failure? Seems like I have heard of such things in the past.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:16:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:17:54 PM EST
Small claims court would be the way to go to recover damages, if you dont get satisfaction dealing with Remington itself.

Just dont be greedy and ask for the sky, ask for only a replacement pistol and conversion kit, or the cost of repair by the factory.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:20:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 5:23:42 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:
I'm shocked the squib was able to cycle the gun.



I had not thought of that. It does seem odd. What else could get a round stuck in the barrel? It had been shooting fine. She didn't rack the slide back. It did cycle. Of course, isn't that true of some squib rounds? Can't some generate enough energy to cycle without the projectile exiting the barrel?



A 22LR, being simple blowback, can...

The gas pressure has to go somewhere, and the only way to relieve it is to eject the spent case....

A member here experienced a squib round in a M11 (9mm blowback-operated subgun), due to reloading error, and managed to stack up a few rounds behind the original squib as the gun kept firing (full auto)...

So it is EASILY poosible to cycle a straight-blowback gun, even if you squib it...

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:28:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:
I'm shocked the squib was able to cycle the gun.



I had not thought of that. It does seem odd. What else could get a round stuck in the barrel? It had been shooting fine. She didn't rack the slide back. It did cycle. Of course, isn't that true of some squib rounds? Can't some generate enough energy to cycle without the projectile exiting the barrel?



A squib load means a primer only load (no powder)--IF that was the case, it absolutely would NOT cycle the action. If Remington pays for the pistol, it would be out of kindness and an effort at gaining PR--not because they are/were negligent in any way.

Did she drop it muzzle down or anything? As you don't seem to know what she did or did not do, how close were you?



Okay. Squib and low powder charge are not the same. I thought squib meant there was not enough energy to get the bullet out of the barrel, whether it was primer only, or low powder charge.

She did not drop the pistol or do anything to it that would have caused a problem. I was standing next to her. Others were on the firing line and her .22 was drowned out by the sounds of larger calibers. I had plugs and muffs on. She could not hear the difference or feel the difference. I couldn't hear. There were holes all in her target, so she could not see whether a bullet hit or not.

Since the pistol had been firing fine up to that point, and she did nothing to damage it, she was just concentrating on keeping her front sight on the target and not yanking the trigger. Then POW and smoke was coming out.

Could it have been a case rupture and the pressure went backwards?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:28:52 PM EST
Here's my .02 on the subject....A buddy and me were shooting both of our new Sig P229s years ago. He was shooting factory Hornady .357 Sig ammo when all of a sudden the gun fires out of battery (at least what we thought). It blew the grips/decock spring off and cracked the chamber. He was ok but a little shaken but the gun obviously took some damage. We called Sig and Hornady to let them know what happened. Sig took the gun and did some magnaflux as well as replace everything damaged all while blaming Hornady for a double charge. Hornady OTOH was blaming Sig for firing out of battery so we had some finger pointing going on. The conclusion is that Sig fixed the gun for free but I have no doubts that Hornady would have fixed it as well. I think it comes down to a liability/ethical issue and I think most major gun manufacturers will do what they feel is right. However, if you know you were negligent, wouldn't you feel better just fixing it yourself?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:31:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By hunt127588:
Here's my .02 on the subject....A buddy and me were shooting both of our new Sig P229s years ago. He was shooting factory Hornady .357 Sig ammo when all of a sudden the gun fires out of battery (at least what we thought). It blew the grips/decock spring off and cracked the chamber. He was ok but a little shaken but the gun obviously took some damage. We called Sig and Hornady to let them know what happened. Sig took the gun and did some magnaflux as well as replace everything damaged all while blaming Hornady for a double charge. Hornady OTOH was blaming Sig for firing out of battery so we had some finger pointing going on. The conclusion is that Sig fixed the gun for free but I have no doubts that Hornady would have fixed it as well. I think it comes down to a liability/ethical issue and I think most major gun manufacturers will do what they feel is right. However, if you know you were negligent, wouldn't you feel better just fixing it yourself?



How was I negligent?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:53:59 PM EST
Only Glocks Kaboom .

A.22 Lr only kapows.
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 11:27:20 AM EST
I have had a chance to take a look at the CZ. I don't know what happened. A squib round might have put a projectile in the tube and the next round caused the problem -or- there was no bullet in the barrel and the round was overcharged.

In either event I was amazed to look at the muzzel and see the bullet half in and half out of the barrel.

As it turns out the trigger return spring was not damaged. The base of the .22 case was in the trigger mechanism hindering the return action after the trigger was pulled.

It also appears that there is no damage to the frame of my CZ75 or the CZ Cadet .22 conversion. I will know for sure when I take it to the range next time out.

If so, all's well that ends well.
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