Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 12/23/2003 2:23:35 PM EDT
Seems there's a whole new scare being there may be terrorists that are actual airline pilots and the fear of a similar 9/11.

Makes sense to me. Lots of reservists doing pretty much nothing for 28 days a month. Most trained with firearms and many with security clearances. Why spend all kinds of $$$ hiring, training, and fielding air marshalls when we have that in the reserve force? Am I being narrowminded? We have the NG in airports so why not put uniformed military on flights?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:27:54 PM EDT
they could use national guard but until marshal law is declared they can't use military. As I understand it at least. the sheep would flip out.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:29:03 PM EDT
Well, the BG's would know who to take out first. I like the idea of pilots carrying. My only real concern is how many would keep the cockpit door closed and locked when the crew and passengers are systematically getting their throats cut??
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:34:46 PM EDT
The sheeple would be INTIMIDATED. The same reasons why most large city police departments dont wear leather jackets anymore - certain types didn't like it and that's it. It's not important that leather jackets help stop a slashing attack, what matters is that nobody feels INTIMIDATED. Some people deserve what they get. That's harsh, but it's a reality.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 2:57:46 PM EDT
This is from a guy who posts on an aviation list I belong to. He is a UAL pilot and former US Navy R4D/P2V and C-130 pilot.
As a still gainfully employed airline pilot allow me to express my thoughts on this subject. Anyone else reading this missive please check out the link in Bear's e-mail. The scenario that played out on 9/11 came about because it was common knowledge that most flight attendants had a key to the flight deck door. The terrorists each went flight schools where aspiring airline pilots trained. I'm sure plenty of current senior pilot's kids were more than willing to tell all about how the F/A/s could just come up anytime they wanted. One key fit all Boeing and de Havelland doors and I think it fit all McDonald Douglas doors also. On 9/11 no doors were broken down by the hijackers, after coercing a F/A to give up the key by slicing and dicing her a bit they just walked in unannounced, the pilots never knew it was coming. The keys to preventing this from happening again is: 1. Only flight deck crews having a key to the door. (Done) 2. Having a deadbolt system that can only be opened from the flight deck. (Done) 3. Having a reinforced door so that it cannot easily be breached from the cabin. (Done) 4. Installing a video monitoring system so that the flight deck crew can monitor the cabin. (Not done) The current FFDO program is designed to only protect the flight deck. The armed pilot is not to enter the cabin to subdue the hi-jackers even if they are slicing and dicing his flight attendants and passengers. He/she cannot use the weapon in a terminal if an attack is taking place. What good is it to arm someone and then not allow them to act? The program is a feel-good gesture by the government to placate those John Wayne types who think they need a weapon to defend themselves. I personally don't want an armed pilot sitting beside me. The barrel of that thing goes right past my head as he is trying to turn around to point it at someone trying to come thru my door, have you ever looked at how small the flight deck is on most commercial aircraft. In most cases the armed pilot would have to fire from his seat while turning around and firing one handed into an area usually packed with electronic equipment and electrical control centers. They only teach the standard two handed grip firing from a standing position.There are many other ways to keep someone out of my office without overstressing the aircraft while I get it on the ground. Hopefully some of my passengers will be tough enough to subdue these fellows while I do my job, Fly the Damn Plane. I'm sure there are some on this list who will disagree with me. I'm not against defending me, my plane, my flight attendants, my passengers and/or my country from anyone who might like to use my aircraft as a missile, but arming pilots and then handcuffing them isn't the way to do it. As one of the two closest pilots to the WTC when it was hit and one of the two members of this list who personally watched the carnage without the aid of a television I feel I have a right to those opinions. Well those are my thoughts, now hit the delete button.
View Quote
Originally Posted By Railman44: Well, the BG's would know who to take out first. I like the idea of pilots carrying. My only real concern is how many would keep the cockpit door closed and locked when the crew and passengers are systematically getting their throats cut??
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:00:15 PM EDT
It would scare the Democraps.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:22:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By andrew: It would scare the Democraps.
View Quote
Actually, it would also scare some folks here! I well remember the hysteria a few years ago over the US Army doing MOUT training.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:38:42 PM EDT
Posse Comatautus (sp?) Military forces can not be used within the borders of the US etc.... Perhaps the simplest thing to do is enforce the 2nd Amendment. Four legally armed citizens would have prevented 9/11 from happening. No matter what any one says, a military or police veteran, or even a good ol boy redneck (no offense considering myself one of the bunch) would have no problem taking out a Saudi with a box cutter. Also, all this TV crap you see about explosive decompression from a bullet hole is BS. It just doesn't happen. Aircraft are constantly venting pressure from the cockpit at a rate higher than that which would be vented through a 45 cal. hole. Also, before anyone mentions the Hawaiian Air flight, that was gross structural failure.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:49:26 PM EDT
Where do you intend we produce these soldiers from Val? The National Guard is kind of busy right now.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:58:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 199:
Originally Posted By andrew: It would scare the Democraps.
View Quote
Actually, it would also scare some folks here! I well remember the hysteria a few years ago over the US Army doing MOUT training.
View Quote
I would argue that airplanes crashing into skyscapers is more scary but I guess logic is sometimes relative. Still can't think of a cheaper, easier to implement and more effective solution to air travel security. Two man teams on all domestic flights. One uniformed and the other "annonomous". The teams are paired randomly every flight as to keep anyone recognizing a pattern of who is teamed with who. Arm the uniformed guys with M4 carbines and the other with a pistol. All with frangable ammo of some sort. They would also have the key to the cabin door. Hell it would probably get you some hazduty pay! Or at least flight pay. Probably get to nail a few flight attendants too[;)] Rant: On Or we could just stop all people of M.E. race from boarding airplanes. Seriously, one more plane goes into a building or into the ground the airlines will collapse. The economy will tank again and there will be more BS streaming from all branches of .gov then ever before. I personally think we should just target known terroist countries. Let's call it like it is. We know that Lybia is being nice now but fuctard is scared we'll invade his ass. But Yeman, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Lebanon, etc. All known to harbor and endorse terroism against the US and our allies. Why not just end this shit here and now. What are we gonna do, endure another generation or two of suicide bombers? They want jihad, give it to them, bullets and bombs first. Then we can introduce them to some one-on-one with Time's Man of the Year. Why do we fight wars these days like a fucking bunch of idiots. In WWII we killed everyone. Man, woman, or child. They were stupid enough to allow thier hedonist rulers to come into power than too bad we firebomb them to the dark ages. It psychologically demoralized the enemy and broke their will to fight! This shit sucks cock. We have to pen ourselves up at home because society is too PC to let the guys in charge do what needs to be done. Terrorism... Ha! We fucking wasted 30 years using the "ignore them and they will go away" logic that barely works with 5 year old kids whining. HTF did anyone think it would work with these assholes? I would have guessed that after 10 years of escalating attacks with more severe results everytime we would need to do something. I mean they effectively SUNK a fucking destroyer for gods sake and we lobbed a few missiles. It took an attack worse than to Pearl Harbor wake us up and all we got was a long drawn out low intensity, PC, fucked up war. We should have gone ahead with "Shock and Awe" and moved into Syria and then Iran right down the line. Rant: Off You know what really adds insult to injury? The fucking traffic on drill weekend during these high alerts! Can't even go do my part to make the world safe for freedom and democracy with out a hassle from these fucking shit eating hateful cocksucking, motherfucking, stench riddled, hairy assed, freaks!.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:01:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Where do you intend we produce these soldiers from Val? The National Guard is kind of busy right now.
View Quote
Fuck, I'm not doing much besides my 2 days a month and the funds are there to pay us. I'm USNR but hey No need to go looking for security clearances, I'm an AO so I think I could be trusted with a rifle or pistol. I know a lot of guys like me that would jump at the opportunity. The Army National Guard isn't the only military you know.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:06:53 PM EDT
The same reason why concealed carry is better than open carry.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:07:49 PM EDT
Lots of reservists doing pretty much nothing for 28 days a month.
View Quote
seems to me that they would have jobs during those 28 days. i don't see how they could live only working 2 days a month. if the reserves pay that much for 2 days work count me in.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:10:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Railman44: Well, the BG's would know who to take out first.
View Quote
Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. In this situation, you do not want a target for terrorists. I don't think someone in uniform is a good idea. You don't want the terrorists to know where the sky marshall is until one or two of them have taken glasers to the back of the head.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:12:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kooter:
Lots of reservists doing pretty much nothing for 28 days a month.
View Quote
seems to me that they would have jobs during those 28 days. i don't see how they could live only working 2 days a month. if the reserves pay that much for 2 days work count me in.
View Quote
Taking what I wrote I understand the misconception. I have a full time job too. I meant that I would gladly take some additional duty hell, I do that now. Why not?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:15:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fizassist:
Originally Posted By Railman44: Well, the BG's would know who to take out first.
View Quote
Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. In this situation, you do not want a target for terrorists. I don't think someone in uniform is a good idea. You don't want the terrorists to know where the sky marshall is until one or two of them have taken glasers to the back of the head.
View Quote
Okay then non-unifomed.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:18:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mak762: they could use national guard but until marshal law is declared they can't use military. As I understand it at least. the sheep would flip out.
View Quote
There we go talking about the Marshal Plan again! Wasn't that a long time ago?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:32:58 PM EDT
Because if you know who the guys with the weapons are then they can overpower them and now they have weapons. Air Marshalls is a lot better idea.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:35:47 PM EDT
OK PEOPLE.... DO WE [b]REALLY[/b] THINK ANOTHER COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT IN THE US WILL [B]EVER[/B] BE TAKEN OVER BY HIJACKERS WITHOUT NEARLY EVERY PASSENGER JUMPING THEIR ASSES?? Now, that I have that out, I'll stop yelling. The days of anyone with any type weapon taking control of a passenger plane are in the days of the past. September 11th changed all that dramatically, and it actually did not even take one hour. the 4th plane went in because the passengers rose up. From that date forward, the thought of dying as a passenger in a missile, or dying going down fighting, or even defeating the hijackers will be on every single passengers mind as soon as the first hijacking assclown stands up. This thread is un-needed. Aviator Out.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:39:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: OK PEOPLE.... DO WE [b]REALLY[/b] THINK ANOTHER COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT IN THE US WILL [B]EVER[/B] BE TAKEN OVER BY HIJACKERS WITHOUT NEARLY EVERY PASSENGER JUMPING THEIR ASSES?? Now, that I have that out, I'll stop yelling. The days of anyone with any type weapon taking control of a passenger plane are in the days of the past. September 11th changed all that dramatically, and it actually did not even take one hour. the 4th plane went in because the passengers rose up. From that date forward, the thought of dying as a passenger in a missile, or dying going down fighting, or even defeating the hijackers will be on every single passengers mind as soon as the first hijacking assclown stands up. This thread is un-needed. Aviator Out.
View Quote
Didn't .gov say that the terrorists ditched the plane? IMO it was shot down YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:47:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Valkyrie: Didn't .gov say that the terrorists ditched the plane? IMO it was shot down YMMV.
View Quote
OK, lets turn the tables. If YOU were on an aircraft that was hijacked today, would you just sit idly by and wait for the government to save your ass, or hope the jackasses were just wanting to go to Uzbekistan? Or would you fight? Just curious. Aviator
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:49:47 PM EDT
I'd fight and fight until I was either incapcitated or the BG was incapacitated. See my reply to your related thread.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:53:10 PM EDT
My concern is this: 1. One trained, hired and fairly long term (3-5 years) pilot, co-pilot or flight engineer who happens to be a terrorist. 2. Reinforced, bulletproof, locked cockpit. 3. How do you expect the Sky Marshals/Flight Attendents/Passangers to stop him from doing whatever he wants. You can't get there to stop him. wwglen
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:15:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wwglen: My concern is this: 1. One trained, hired and fairly long term (3-5 years) pilot, co-pilot or flight engineer who happens to be a terrorist. 2. Reinforced, bulletproof, locked cockpit. 3. How do you expect the Sky Marshals/Flight Attendents/Passangers to stop him from doing whatever he wants. You can't get there to stop him. wwglen
View Quote
Those were my thoughts. Scary.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:25:02 PM EDT
Don't have to be worried about Flight Engineers, they don't fly on anything but third tier cargo airlines. Sky Marshals have guns. I expect that if he knows that the pilot is the one who is driving the bus to greet his 72 virgins that the Sky Marshall will be shooting through the cabin door. Already in place pilots...well, that's scary.
Originally Posted By wwglen: My concern is this: 1. One trained, hired and fairly long term (3-5 years) pilot, co-pilot or flight engineer who happens to be a terrorist. 2. Reinforced, bulletproof, locked cockpit. 3. How do you expect the Sky Marshals/Flight Attendents/Passangers to stop him from doing whatever he wants. You can't get there to stop him. wwglen
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:48:16 PM EDT
Please I hope noone takes this the wrong way. I think simply put is that the role of the miltary is to kill every enemy in sight and there is the concept of acceptable casualties. The mindset of the cop is the opposite, protect the innocent, while taking out the bad guys is secondary. The thinking is therefore that the average cop or airmashall is better suited to the mission.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:51:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: … The days of anyone with any type weapon taking control of a passenger plane are in the days of the past….
View Quote
Actually, I’m far more worried about cargo haulers. No passengers, no Air Marshal’s, and IIRC those pilots aren’t armed!! Also, what about a commercial aircraft coming over from Europe with, say, a bunch of French passengers in it??
Originally Posted By wwglen: My concern is this: 1. One trained, hired and fairly long term (3-5 years) pilot, co-pilot or flight engineer who happens to be a terrorist. 2. Reinforced, bulletproof, locked cockpit. 3. How do you expect the Sky Marshals/Flight Attendents/Passangers to stop him from doing whatever he wants. You can't get there to stop him.
View Quote
That’s what F-16’s are for!! [:D] Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if Air Marshals know how to disable an aircraft from the passenger cabin. Still, I wouldn’t take anything for granted. IIRC, about five years ago a fundamentalist Muslim co-pilot sent an Egypt Air commercial jet into the Atlantic Ocean, apparently since it contained Egyptian military officers that had just completed some training here in the States.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:41:05 PM EDT
Couldn't the pilot just float the passengers like they do for astronaut training? Do that a few time everyone is sick and puking and then try to kill any hijacking terrorist. Just a disjointed thought. Maybe install some kind of auto pilot lock out that would put the palne in control of someone on the ground, probably a real expensive system but it would lock out any internal input from a pilot or hijacker. Or just an auto pilot lock out that can only be released from a ground controller via some encrypted code. This would disable all cockpit control inputs. probably a bunch of problems this would cause but I am tired and can't think right.
Top Top