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Posted: 9/2/2005 6:41:23 PM EDT
I'm not talking about the aftermath of the hurricane, this is a rescue, evacuation and relief effort.
I put the blame on those who built and continue to build in New Orleans. The city was just begging for a disaster when a big storm came.
The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans had NO disaster plans for their own people !!
All they have done is point at uncle sugar and whine that the taxpayers didn't do enough.
You live BELOW FRICKIN SEA LEVEL !!
Why not live at the base of an active volcano or right on an active fault line.
There are laws that charge motorists here that cross running washes and then need to be rescued. It's called the "stupid motorists law" and they are made to pay. New Orleans shouldn't be there and mother nature just reminded them of that.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:42:31 PM EDT
I blame god. and maybe Jesus. and the weatherman.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:44:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
I blame god. and maybe Jesus. and the weatherman.



Don't forget the locusts.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:46:41 PM EDT
I blame you Spectre, yep, pretty sure its all your fault
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:47:38 PM EDT
I'm waiting for DU to post that Bush used a weather control machine to cause the hurricane, to distract Americans from the Iraq war.

So was bush MIHOP or LIHOP?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:48:15 PM EDT
I blame no one.....because nothing wrong has happened.
The Earth has many storms...and people die as a result of them.

Entire populations of animals have been completely extincted by massive weather conditions in the Earths history, and guess what......it will happen again.

What happened is normal...I think people like to forget that weather has been around for about 4 billion years....and that we have only been recording it for a few hundred.

This is just what the planet does....I suggest getting used to it.
Voting for a democrat wont change the axis the planet rotates on.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:48:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I'm not talking about the aftermath of the hurricane, this is a rescue, evacuation and relief effort.
I put the blame on those who built and continue to build in New Orleans. The city was just begging for a disaster when a big storm came.
The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans had NO disaster plans for their own people !!
All they have done is point at uncle sugar and whine that the taxpayers didn't do enough.
You live BELOW FRICKIN SEA LEVEL !!
Why not live at the base of an active volcano or right on an active fault line.
There are laws that charge motorists here that cross running washes and then need to be rescued. It's called the "stupid motorists law" and they are made to pay. New Orleans shouldn't be there and mother nature just reminded them of that.



Amen brother. I read a gov't report that said that this exact disaster was pending on NO officials chose to do nothing about it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:48:41 PM EDT
Okay I freaking admit, okay it was me Im sorry.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:49:25 PM EDT
I blame the WEATHER GOD.*

­*Who, I have it from a reliable source, looks a lot like Al Sharpton.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:49:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
I blame god. and maybe Jesus. and the weatherman.



Don't forget the locusts.



Yeah!! Damn locusts!
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:49:51 PM EDT
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding.


Looks like we're gonna have to rebuild them anyway, though.

FWIW...there may have been more important things on the plate that year...but if you want to lay blame...you're gonna have to lay it where it belongs.

Not attacking W...so please keep the flames at a min...just stating what I've been reading/watching.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:50:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mark75101:
I blame you Spectre, yep, pretty sure its all your fault



damn......they're on to me.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:50:27 PM EDT
My god why is everyone looking for someone to blame? Are you gonna blame the Discovery astronaughts for their own death when they blew up over my house? Because they continued to fly up there?

Its nobodies fault, alot of the people that stayed there may not have had the money to leave, alot of them are stubborn too. Its a horrible sitituation over there, it doesn't help with you going around pointing your finger.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:50:39 PM EDT
Damned French. They did this on purpose.

Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:52:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 6:56:35 PM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:52:21 PM EDT
No, it was me. I'm a middle class white Republican guy. It was me. All me.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:52:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding.


Looks like we're gonna have to rebuild them anyway, though.

FWIW...there may have been more important things on the plate that year...but if you want to lay blame...you're gonna have to lay it where it belongs.

Not attacking W...so please keep the flames at a min...just stating what I've been reading/watching.



Thats fine, but why is it all up to the feds ??
The state and city should be taking care of this. They live there.
If it was a priority it would have been done but mardi gras is the priority there.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:53:35 PM EDT
How about building levees that can only handle a class 3 hurricane
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:54:13 PM EDT
What good is blaming anyone right now? I just don't understand the blame game that's going on right now.

Let's try and fix a bad situation as quickly as possible and if people must place blame for this somewhere do it after things have straightened out a bit.

Just my opinion.

Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:56:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding.


Looks like we're gonna have to rebuild them anyway, though.

FWIW...there may have been more important things on the plate that year...but if you want to lay blame...you're gonna have to lay it where it belongs.

Not attacking W...so please keep the flames at a min...just stating what I've been reading/watching.



Thats fine, but why is it all up to the feds ??
The state and city should be taking care of this. They live there.
If it was a priority it would have been done but mardi gras is the priority there.




It's not all up to the feds ANYWHERE...I live in MA...we get federal funding (as do all the states) for FEMA and DPW which takes care of (in our case) hurricane barriers and road and bridges. In Cali, you get funding for earthquake - resistent bridges (which are unnecessary in say, I dunno, NY) that's part of the Federal tax burden we all bear. For the last 5 years specialists have warned of this disaster, but other things have taken precedence...trust me...since LA will need new Levies and pumps, the MA and RI barriers will not get the funding THEY need in the coming years...

We're all in this shit together, like it or not.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:57:55 PM EDT
Has anyone blamed John Kerry yet?

<­BR>

Oh good, I blame him then.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:59:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigB1129:
How about building levees that can only handle a class 3 hurricane




If I want one of them class 3 hurricanes, do I need to fill out a form 1 or form 4?






Vulcan94
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 6:59:26 PM EDT
I blame santa.. the naughty list just took on a new meaning.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:04:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sp1shooter:
No, it was me. I'm a middle class white Republican guy. It was me. All me.



Hey! I helped you! Who was it who had to take the fucking rowboat to the middle of the Atlantic?
Who was it who spent days with this >

getting this whole thing going? Huh?!
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:09:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding



Those rebuilds have been overlooked for way more than the last five years.

Everybody and their brother has been putting off the needed work for many years.

The feds,state and local all have pissed it off.

I can't believe you are falling for the "It's Bushes fault" line.

GM
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:10:02 PM EDT
You're all wrong. How quickly we forget about Karl Rove. He is the real culprit. No one else has heard of his magic Repulican tsunami/hurricane/earthquake making .gov cover up machine?
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:12:39 PM EDT
I blame the French, they founded the city.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:12:54 PM EDT
The plans for strengthening the levees has been put off for the last 40 years...its not something that happened only during GWBs watch
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:13:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding



Those rebuilds have been overlooked for way more than the last five years.

Everybody and their brother has been putting off the needed work for many years.

The feds,state and local all have pissed it off.

I can't believe you are falling for the "It's Bushes fault" line.

GM




Gah...not falling for anything...but simply stating we can't sit back and place a halo on W's head and say his hands are clean...Personally, I think it was a combination of the LA govt AND the feds...


Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:14:11 PM EDT
I would also like to add that the people of New Orleans should pay solely for the recovery and rebuild. Stop using my money for dumb projects like building a city "under water".
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:20:04 PM EDT
Stealing this from another thread, originally posted by w_smith

Sept. 1, 2005, 8:04PM

The foretelling of a deadly disaster in New Orleans
FEMA ranked hurricane scenario highly likely in '01
By ERIC BERGER

Editor's note: This article was originally published on Dec. 1, 2001, in the Houston Chronicle. Because of its relevance to the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina, it is being republished.

New Orleans is sinking.

And its main buffer from a hurricane, the protective Mississippi River delta, is quickly eroding away, leaving the historic city perilously close to disaster.

So vulnerable, in fact, that earlier this year the Federal Emergency Management Agency ranked the potential damage to New Orleans as among the three likeliest, most catastrophic disasters facing this country.

The other two? A massive earthquake in San Francisco, and, almost prophetically, a terrorist attack on New York City.

The New Orleans hurricane scenario may be the deadliest of all.

In the face of an approaching storm, scientists say, the city's less-than-adequate evacuation routes would strand 250,000 people or more, and probably kill one of 10 left behind as the city drowned under 20 feet of water. Thousands of refugees could land in Houston.

Economically, the toll would be shattering.

Southern Louisiana produces one-third of the country's seafood, one-fifth of its oil and one-quarter of its natural gas. The city's tourism, lifeblood of the French Quarter, would cease to exist. The Big Easy might never recover.

And, given New Orleans' precarious perch, some academics wonder if it should be rebuilt at all.

It's been 36 years since Hurricane Betsy buried New Orleans 8 feet deep. Since then a deteriorating ecosystem and increased development have left the city in an ever more precarious position. Yet the problem went unaddressed for decades by a laissez-faire government, experts said.

"To some extent, I think we've been lulled to sleep," said Marc Levitan, director of Louisiana State University's hurricane center.

Hurricane season ended Friday, and for the second straight year no hurricanes hit the United States. But the season nonetheless continued a long-term trend of more active seasons, forecasters said. Tropical Storm Allison became this country's most destructive tropical storm ever.

Yet despite the damage Allison wrought upon Houston, dropping more than 3 feet of water in some areas, a few days later much of the city returned to normal as bloated bayous drained into the Gulf of Mexico. The same storm dumped a mere 5 inches on New Orleans, nearly overwhelming the city's pump system. If an Allison-type storm were to strike New Orleans, or a Category 3 storm or greater with at least 111 mph winds, the results would be cataclysmic, New Orleans planners said.

"Any significant water that comes into this city is a dangerous threat," Walter Maestri, Jefferson Parish emergency management director, told Scientific American for an October article.

"Even though I have to plan for it, I don't even want to think about the loss of life a huge hurricane would cause."

New Orleans is essentially a bowl ringed by levees that protect the city from the Mississippi River to its south and Lake Pontchartrain to the north. The bottom of the bowl is 14 feet below sea level, and efforts to keep it dry are only digging a deeper hole.

During routine rainfalls the city's dozens of pumps push water uphill into the lake. This, in turn, draws water from the ground, further drying the ground and sinking it deeper, a problem known as subsidence.

This problem also faces Houston as water wells have sucked the ground dry. Houston's solution is a plan to convert to surface drinking water. For New Orleans, eliminating pumping during a rainfall is not an option, so the city continues to sink.

A big storm, scientists said, would likely block four of five evacuation routes long before it hit. Those left behind would have no power or transportation, and little food or medicine, and no prospects for a return to normal any time soon.

"The bowl would be full," Levitan said. "There's simply no place for the water to drain."

Estimates for pumping the city dry after a huge storm vary from six to 16 weeks. Hundreds of thousands would be homeless, their residences destroyed.

The only solution, scientists, politicians and other Louisiana officials agree, is to take large-scale steps to minimize the risks, such as rebuilding the protective delta.

Every two miles of marsh between New Orleans and the Gulf reduces a storm surge — which in some cases is 20 feet or higher — by half a foot.

In 1990, the Breaux Act, named for its author, Sen. John Breaux, D-La., created a task force of several federal agencies to address the severe wetlands loss in coastal Louisiana. The act has brought about $40 million a year for wetland restoration projects, but it hasn't been enough.

"It's kind of been like trying to give aspirin to a cancer patient," said Len Bahr, director of Louisiana Gov. Mike Foster's coastal activities office.

The state loses about 25 square miles of land a year, the equivalent of about one football field every 15 minutes. The fishing industry, without marshes, swamps and fertile wetlands, could lose a projected $37 billion by the year 2050.

University of New Orleans researchers studied the impact of Breaux Act projects on the vanishing wetlands and estimated that only 2 percent of the loss has been averted. Clearly, Bahr said, there is a need for something much bigger. There is some evidence this finally may be happening.

A consortium of local, state and federal agencies is studying a $2 billion to $3 billion plan to divert sediment from the Mississippi River back into the delta. Because the river is leveed all the way to the Gulf, where sediment is dumped into deep water, nothing is left to replenish the receding delta. Other possible projects include restoration of barrier reefs and perhaps a large gate to prevent Lake Pontchartrain from overflowing and drowning the city.

All are multibillion-dollar projects. A plan to restore the Florida Everglades attracted $4 billion in federal funding, but the state had to match it dollar for dollar. In Louisiana, so far, there's only been a willingness to match 15 or 25 cents.

"Our state still looks for a 100 percent federal bailout, but that's just not going to happen," said University of New Orleans geologist Shea Penland, a delta expert.

"We have an image and credibility problem. We have to convince our country that they need to take us seriously, that they can trust us to do a science-based restoration program."

Berger is a Chronicle reporter.

Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:28:30 PM EDT


It's not all up to the feds ANYWHERE...I live in MA...we get federal funding (as do all the states) for FEMA and DPW which takes care of (in our case) hurricane barriers and road and bridges. In Cali, you get funding for earthquake - resistent bridges (which are unnecessary in say, I dunno, NY) that's part of the Federal tax burden we all bear. For the last 5 years specialists have warned of this disaster, but other things have taken precedence...trust me...since LA will need new Levies and pumps, the MA and RI barriers will not get the funding THEY need in the coming years...

We're all in this shit together, like it or not.



This is complete B.S. Why should I have to pay so someone can live below sea level, or in an earthquake zone? Last time I checked, the Fed wasn't provining salt and snow removal equipment here in the U.P. This reminds me of my last meeting with my insurance agent. Why is my insurance going up because a bunch of idiots build their houses in a flood plain, and rebuild them every 3 years in the same spot because they get wiped out? I say let the states take care of themselves. One less level of government to suck up money. All states have our own problems, let's take care of our own.

It's not that I don't want to help these people, but this reminds me of a saying we have at work "Piss poor planning promotes poor performance."
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 7:46:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 7:50:49 PM EDT by blueheeler66]
Hey SPECTRE not true.
La. does have disaster plans and pretty detailed ones. And some of La.'s plans are used as a model for other states to work off of. La. has a lot of Homeland Security issues due to the oil industry and the Mississippi River trade and shipping industry. All battle plans are good until the first shot is fired. Yes, we have a lot of lessons to be learned from this. The whole country does. FEMA, the NG, and the Red Cross were pre-positioned before the storm even hit. Trucks were supposedly running to the pre-positioned holding areas and being 'stacked' for continuous deployment into the zone. Where did the ball get dropped? Who knows for sure. Maybe we lost the inititive when the looting started, I kind of think the governoress(?) might have relied on people's willingness to work together in a civilized way and forgot what she was actually working with, a group that thought 'the gubment owes it to me to save my fat ass'. Instead they ignored the mandatory evacuation. And they probably thought the criminal element might not be that big of a threat to the people and rescue workers. There was another thread about how every year there are specials and segments on tv about past hurricane history, hurricane preparation, and evacuation. This includes a special note on N.O.'s particular weakness. The initial plans were good and public knowledge; did everything go as planned; evidently not.
It's a shitty situation those folks are in. Some real aweful incidences and experiences are happening down there, you probably aren't even aware of half of it. Some of it is filtering out bit by bit as the rescue workers, medical care, and police are rotating in and out for rest periods. But most brought it on themselves by not getting the f**k out when told to. They wasted a lot of our nations' resources; and their fellow citizens' and families' lives by staying, for most it was a conscious choice. The N.O. mayor whining how it's Bush's fault is bs; he and his predecessor's should have had planned for every contigency; they had years to get this right. But they want to play the Democratic blame game and the race card. Idiots like Jesse Jackson and some of these other talking heads are hinderances, not solutions to the problem. Coming in and putting on the dog and pony shows. They should be ran out of the state and not allowed to return. They aren't allowing their own citizens back into the area to even help out; but they allow the political asshats in to hinder operations. Hell, they aren't even letting them to try to get out of the city on their own now.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 8:08:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding



Those rebuilds have been overlooked for way more than the last five years.

Everybody and their brother has been putting off the needed work for many years.

The feds,state and local all have pissed it off.

I can't believe you are falling for the "It's Bushes fault" line.

GM




Gah...not falling for anything...but simply stating we can't sit back and place a halo on W's head and say his hands are clean...Personally, I think it was a combination of the LA govt AND the feds...



You quote: "CBS news reports" That President Bush "cut" the funds to save N.O. ?

How exactly are President Bush's hands "dirty" in this whole thing.

The danger that loomed over N.O. from a significant huricane has been around for years and

nobody did anything about it.

It just so happened now, rather than the past or in the future with whoever may be the President.

Sorry, PlaymoreMinds, nothing personal

I don't mind laying blame on whoever may have dropped the ball, but GW isn't the one who
did in this instance.

GM
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:21:10 PM EDT
[SheilaBroflowski] BLAME CANADA!!!! BLAME CANADA!!!!![/SheilaBroflowski]
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:35:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding.

Looks like we're gonna have to rebuild them anyway, though.

FWIW...there may have been more important things on the plate that year...but if you want to lay blame...you're gonna have to lay it where it belongs.

Not attacking W...so please keep the flames at a min...just stating what I've been reading/watching.

That may be true, but it doesn't explain why it wasn't done earlier. The city has been there for 200 years. Surely Bush wasn't the only thing that held them back. They didn't have any problems scaring up the money to promote Mardi Gras or to build the Superdome. Relying on the Corps of Engineers or anyone else to shell out the money to unfuck your doomed city is stupid. I learned in grade school, nearly 20 years ago, that New Orleans was gonna end up under water some day. Now that it's happened, nobody wants to take responsibility.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 9:41:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 9:45:42 PM EDT by TrashHeap]

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
I blame god. and maybe Jesus. and the weatherman.



God in heaven was very upset , looking down on New Orleans. He sent many of His people to tell the sinners to repent. They did not. So because of their sin, He sent a storm, a powerful storm. He gave those who would listen an advanced warning of the pending threat. So those who indeed listened to the people God has given knowledge to, fled the city and retreated to high ground.

because of their sinnful nature, the heads of Government in the storm, chose not to heed the signs and prepare for the storm.

Many who have not heard and those in charge done nothing to help the helpless, and those who heared, fled to the high ground but left behind the weak, poor and infirm, Their guilt will be heavy.

In seeing this the Lord felt compassion, and at the last minute he moved the storm. Sparing the weak, poor and infirm. But great suffering will be upon them. The sin of the mighty will fall at the feet of the weak and the weak will rise as the strong and the strength the Lord hath given them shall not be defeated. Those who are first shall be last and those who were last shall be first.


Just something that came to my mind when I read this.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:30:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I put the blame on those who built and continue to build in New Orleans.
The city was just begging for a disaster when a big storm came.
The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans had NO disaster plans for their own people !!

You live BELOW FRICKIN SEA LEVEL !!

There are laws that charge motorists here that cross running washes and then need to be rescued.

It's called the "stupid motorists law" and they are made to pay.

New Orleans shouldn't be there and mother nature just reminded them of that.




dotgub said it was OK, and you residents are now safe.

Too bad we can't enact the "stupid dotgubments law".
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:33:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Okay I freaking admit, okay it was me Im sorry.



Now that I would believe, apology accepted.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:35:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I'm not talking about the aftermath of the hurricane, this is a rescue, evacuation and relief effort.
I put the blame on those who built and continue to build in New Orleans. The city was just begging for a disaster when a big storm came.
The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans had NO disaster plans for their own people !!
All they have done is point at uncle sugar and whine that the taxpayers didn't do enough.
You live BELOW FRICKIN SEA LEVEL !!
Why not live at the base of an active volcano or right on an active fault line.
There are laws that charge motorists here that cross running washes and then need to be rescued. It's called the "stupid motorists law" and they are made to pay. New Orleans shouldn't be there and mother nature just reminded them of that.


And you live in a fucking desert!



Along with 5 million of your closest friends...

To paraphrase the late comedian Sam Kennison, 'Y'all don't need water, y'all need luggage!'

You guys are one winter's short snowfall in the Rockies away from Mogadishu!

Now, let's have a Parts 3, 4, and 5 of this never-ending 'War Between The States.'

Is that really wise?

Eric The(HonestToGoodness)Hun



The Drought is over.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 10:39:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding



Those rebuilds have been overlooked for way more than the last five years.

Everybody and their brother has been putting off the needed work for many years.

The feds,state and local all have pissed it off.

I can't believe you are falling for the "It's Bushes fault" line.

GM




Gah...not falling for anything...but simply stating we can't sit back and place a halo on W's head and say his hands are clean...Personally, I think it was a combination of the LA govt AND the feds...





The federal funds are there. The problem is there was no motivation on the local governments because of matching local funds. It has been that way for 50 years...

President Bush is as much to blame as any other President before him.

The real blame goes to the people who were stupid enough to stay behind and more importantly, the city leadership that didn't force evacuation.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding.


Looks like we're gonna have to rebuild them anyway, though.

FWIW...there may have been more important things on the plate that year...but if you want to lay blame...you're gonna have to lay it where it belongs.

Not attacking W...so please keep the flames at a min...just stating what I've been reading/watching.



The various engineering problems that affect NO's flood-proneness have been at least semi-actively worked on by Army Corp of Engineers for something like the past 30 years. Funding has definitely been an issue over these years, but considering the massive engineering they wanted/needed to fix up the protection sufficiently to prevent this disaster, it was unlikely to have been completed by 2005 even with the cut funds. It's not like money just overcomes issues like these magically overnight. It should have been solved a long time ago, and local priorities have been far more an issue than how much federal handout money corrupt Lousiana politicians can or can't get their grubby hands on.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:26:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 4:39:19 AM EDT by PlaymoreMinds]

Originally Posted By Wables:


It's not all up to the feds ANYWHERE...I live in MA...we get federal funding (as do all the states) for FEMA and DPW which takes care of (in our case) hurricane barriers and road and bridges. In Cali, you get funding for earthquake - resistent bridges (which are unnecessary in say, I dunno, NY) that's part of the Federal tax burden we all bear. For the last 5 years specialists have warned of this disaster, but other things have taken precedence...trust me...since LA will need new Levies and pumps, the MA and RI barriers will not get the funding THEY need in the coming years...

We're all in this shit together, like it or not.



This is complete B.S. Why should I have to pay so someone can live below sea level, or in an earthquake zone? Last time I checked, the Fed wasn't provining salt and snow removal equipment here in the U.P. This reminds me of my last meeting with my insurance agent. Why is my insurance going up because a bunch of idiots build their houses in a flood plain, and rebuild them every 3 years in the same spot because they get wiped out? I say let the states take care of themselves. One less level of government to suck up money. All states have our own problems, let's take care of our own.

It's not that I don't want to help these people, but this reminds me of a saying we have at work "Piss poor planning promotes poor performance."




Feds dole out DPW money. High-ways, bridges, etc. Like it or not some of your money is being spent here...and mine there. What the feds don't spend money on, insurance companies do. Let's look at this on a social level. LA is one of the poorest states in the union...MS is also. They get more fed aid for some programs than states who generate more of their own tax money. Unfair? Maybe...but (as I say) we live in a union of 50 states...Some states do better because of the COL vs Wage. Here in the Northeast, wages are MUCH higher than in LA...because they keep pace with the COL: housing/food/etc is MUCH higher here. So MA generates lots of tax money. We STILL get fed help for DPW for snow removal costs, hi-way maint...etc...and SOME of that Fed help comes DIRECTLY from the Gas tax.


ETA: Lifted this off the news ticker on my homepage:
New York governor George Pataki presented the Red Cross with a check for $2.5 million and promised, "This great state will do far more."

"In terms of property damage," said actress Hilary Swank, "the estimate is at least $26 billion in insured losses and perhaps twice that in uninsured losses over a 90,000-square-mile area _ approximately the size of Kansas."

One way or another? We're all gonna pay....


Originally Posted By goodmedicine:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding



Those rebuilds have been overlooked for way more than the last five years.

Everybody and their brother has been putting off the needed work for many years.

The feds,state and local all have pissed it off.

I can't believe you are falling for the "It's Bushes fault" line.

GM




Gah...not falling for anything...but simply stating we can't sit back and place a halo on W's head and say his hands are clean...Personally, I think it was a combination of the LA govt AND the feds...



You quote: "CBS news reports" That President Bush "cut" the funds to save N.O. ?

How exactly are President Bush's hands "dirty" in this whole thing.

The danger that loomed over N.O. from a significant huricane has been around for years and

nobody did anything about it.

It just so happened now, rather than the past or in the future with whoever may be the President.

Sorry, PlaymoreMinds, nothing personal

I don't mind laying blame on whoever may have dropped the ball, but GW isn't the one who
did in this instance.

GM



First, GM...re-read...I said the Bush ADMIN...I don't blame Dubya for everything bad in the world...I am critical of all our leaders, not just the President. He's not "satan" just one of the many working for the title
Second, gimme some credit for dragging that article back in here and read it.
Third, please also gimme credit for stating that there were probably BIGGER problems at the time LA had their hand out...

Point I was making was that the Fed gambled that this would not be their problem....and they lost.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 4:34:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CS223:

I blame the French, they founded the city.




Works for me.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:00:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 5:01:56 AM EDT by rkbar15]
New Orleans had forty years to prepare for Katrina. The local government spent more time on Mardi Gras planning and preparations then they did for disaster/evacuation planning over the past forty years. Couple that with a nanny state .gov mentality and a large population of helpless people and New Orleans fate was cast in stone.

"It has been 40 years since New Orleans faced a hurricane even comparable to Katrina. In 1965, Hurricane Betsy, a Category 3 storm, submerged some parts of the city to a depth of seven feet."
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:05:00 AM EDT
It seems to me there is lots of blame to go around, right from the local citizens up the chain to local, state, and federal government. I am not sure who is responsable for maintaining the levee system "Core of Engineers maybe" but it probably should be at the local level. People at the local have a much greater vested interest in the proper function and can react faster than the feds.

I have been reading about the loss of wetlands and marshes south of N.O. and their effect of reducing storm surge in N.O. but I am still confused as to the reason for the changes that are occuring. Can someone explain it?

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:06:51 AM EDT
I lived in Louisiana from 1974 to April 2005 and I wholeheartedly blame La. Gov Kathleen Blanco for not calling in the Natl Guard on Monday.
Troops in the AO from the outset would have made the relief / rescue effort go a lot smoother
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:07:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I'm not talking about the aftermath of the hurricane, this is a rescue, evacuation and relief effort.
I put the blame on those who built and continue to build in New Orleans. The city was just begging for a disaster when a big storm came.
The state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans had NO disaster plans for their own people !!
All they have done is point at uncle sugar and whine that the taxpayers didn't do enough.
You live BELOW FRICKIN SEA LEVEL !!
Why not live at the base of an active volcano or right on an active fault line.
There are laws that charge motorists here that cross running washes and then need to be rescued. It's called the "stupid motorists law" and they are made to pay. New Orleans shouldn't be there and mother nature just reminded them of that.



New Orleans was built over 300 years ago. I agree with you though. I often wonder also why anyone would build a city in the middle of a valley in the middle of a desert where they have to fight with their neighboring states over water from one little river. Some people just don't get it I guess.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:11:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
Spectre, CBS news reports that bringing those levies and pumps up to modern day need was on the "list of cuts" that came straight from the Bush Admin several years ago and funding for maitenance was all that was provided: not funding for rebuilding.


Looks like we're gonna have to rebuild them anyway, though.

FWIW...there may have been more important things on the plate that year...but if you want to lay blame...you're gonna have to lay it where it belongs.

Not attacking W...so please keep the flames at a min...just stating what I've been reading/watching.



Thats fine, but why is it all up to the feds ??
The state and city should be taking care of this. They live there.
If it was a priority it would have been done but mardi gras is the priority there.



You live in a poor state, along with your neigbors in New Mexico. I bet there is more cash in the City of Chicago in one bank then in all the state of AZ. I love AZ, but fact is if the water dried up would you want us to tell you it's a state problem. Think the civil authorities in the great state of Arizona could handle something like this? Arizona can't even keep people on the south side of a fence.

NO shouldn't be where it is. But neither should Phoenix, Tuscon, LA, Santa Fe and Albequerque.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:15:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 5:23:43 AM EDT by rkbar15]

Originally Posted By Swamprat51:
I have been reading about the loss of wetlands and marshes south of N.O. and their effect of reducing storm surge in N.O. but I am still confused as to the reason for the changes that are occuring. Can someone explain it?



Most experts who have been studying the region for over 25 years blame the destruction of the delta/wetlands buffer zone in large part to the diversion of the Mississippi River. Over 1,500 square miles of this buffer zone has been lost due to erosion and is now open water.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 5:17:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 5:18:43 AM EDT by patriot73]

Originally Posted By Wables:


It's not all up to the feds ANYWHERE...I live in MA...we get federal funding (as do all the states) for FEMA and DPW which takes care of (in our case) hurricane barriers and road and bridges. In Cali, you get funding for earthquake - resistent bridges (which are unnecessary in say, I dunno, NY) that's part of the Federal tax burden we all bear. For the last 5 years specialists have warned of this disaster, but other things have taken precedence...trust me...since LA will need new Levies and pumps, the MA and RI barriers will not get the funding THEY need in the coming years...

We're all in this shit together, like it or not.



This is complete B.S. Why should I have to pay so someone can live below sea level, or in an earthquake zone? Last time I checked, the Fed wasn't provining salt and snow removal equipment here in the U.P. This reminds me of my last meeting with my insurance agent. Why is my insurance going up because a bunch of idiots build their houses in a flood plain, and rebuild them every 3 years in the same spot because they get wiped out? I say let the states take care of themselves. One less level of government to suck up money. All states have our own problems, let's take care of our own.

It's not that I don't want to help these people, but this reminds me of a saying we have at work "Piss poor planning promotes poor performance."



You live in Michigan. I would hate to make you aware of the welfare/tax money dumped all overyour state. Michigan generally speaking, is very poor. Being from IL, a very wealthy state that pays HUGE taxes, I no longer wish for the FED to bail out the big three auto manufactures. I mean, why should I have to pay tax money for them to bail them out time and time again. Especially considering the unions in michigan that pay people over $20 per hour to stand on an assembly line and assemble parts like a three year old with a lego set.

Don't throw stones.
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