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Posted: 10/1/2011 12:15:31 PM EST
It seems like Ukraine would be doing better than it is.

Yes, I Googled it, but, Cliff Notes version, why are average salries, 2011 $319/mo, so low and GDP per capita, about $6,700/yr so low?

They have resources and education, I think, it just seems like they should be doing better.






Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:19:05 PM EST
After being there for 10 days, a couple of years ago...excessive government controls and the associated corruption.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:38:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:40:48 PM EST
Based on the few Ukes i know, corruption and laziness. Empasis on the lazines. Although i have always believed that laziness is the basis for corruption, you know, the easy way to make a buck.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:43:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 12:43:50 PM EST by raven]
Ukraine is weak. A road apple, Newman. I think it's time to put the hurt on Ukraine.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 12:49:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 12:49:42 PM EST by Katana16j]
It is interesting to Compare the Ukraine with Poland and Lithuania, due to their historical ties, proximity and demographics.

If you look at Poland its humming along well and is on its way to becoming one of the big European economies in our lifetime.

If you look at Ukraine... its less rosy.

The big difference is closeness to Russia, and Russian collectivist influence. A substantial part of Ukraine is Ethnically Russian, and actively supported closer Russian ties historically in the period when Poland and Lithuania rejected both Russian political favor and Russian collectivist philosophy.

IE Poland said "Fuck this Communism shit, we'd rather be free" and built their society on the principals of greater personal freedom. While Ukraine (as it is wont to do) clung to self destructive principals because they wanted to prove that they were not like the Polish, and as a result courted closer ties to Moscow and the destructiveness inherant in those collectivist policies. After the split up, that sizable contingent of russophiles did a lot to oppose policies that would distance them from Russia, even if those policies were good for Ukraine.


Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:05:30 PM EST
If you want a smaller scale version,look at Estonia. Estonians are smart,innovative,educated,are very tech savvy...then you've got 1/3 of the population that's too interested in being Russian to be any of the above.
Essentially,half of Ukraine has no interest in being Ukrainian so they don't give a shit. Sorry,but Russians almost can't help themselves when it comes to being corrupt,lazy assholes.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:24:31 PM EST
Although a couple of people have alluded to it, one needs to keep in mind that the Soviets resettled large groups of ethnic Russians in the various SSRs. It's like Georgia –– not everyone is a "Georgian" there. Not everyone in Ukraine is a "Ukrainian". Many in both countries are Russians, and want to be part of Russia.

Russia also wants to damage their economies and force them to stay within the Russian sphere of influence. Hence Russia handing out Russian passports among the ethnic Russians in both countries, and starting a war to "protect" these dual-citizens in Georgia a couple of years ago. They're playing the same game in Ukraine too.

And now, think about how Mexicans are moving into the U.S., and refusing to assimilate. . . .
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:29:36 PM EST
Ukraine is STRONG!

Kharn
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:30:20 PM EST
cause they dont give a shit.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:06:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 5:06:14 PM EST by Bohr_Adam]
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:10:14 PM EST
There was a chick that was on my team at work who was Ukrainian. She and one of the hippie senior dudes were dating... anyway, he got fed up with the corporate greed and shit and quit, and they both went to the Ukraine. She stayed on with the company working remotely, and I had chance to ask her where her income put her over there. She was modest, and said she was doing pretty well comparatively... but I know she had to have been making probably $50k or more, maybe even closer to $60k with her job function.

If the OP is right, she could have been living like freaking royalty.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:22:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


Please define "function", and how would they be doing if they weren't favored with an abundance of natural resources?

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:27:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By winxlite:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


Please define "function", and how would they be doing if they weren't favored with an abundance of natural resources?



function - it is broadly encompassing word for a reason.

Who is "they" Ukraine? What abundance? They have more than many, but the situation there is beyond frustrating.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:29:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By MikeSSS:
It seems like Ukraine would be doing better than it is.

Yes, I Googled it, but, Cliff Notes version, why are average salries, 2011 $319/mo, so low and GDP per capita, about $6,700/yr so low?

They have resources and education, I think, it just seems like they should be doing better.








20% VAT added to everything that assrapes poor people.
bribery EVERYWHERE. No dont smirk I LITERALLY mean EVERYWHERE. Doctor, school, dmv you name it.
If your business gets too big or sucessfull they toss you in jail unless you happen to sign off half of it to the right people...
The Ukrainian people are suffering from the Russian disease. The current president is a convict and a rapist.
Now they are throwin the por-western pro capitalist Yuliya in prison. Ukraine needs to purge the Russians out of the government and the country.


Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:37:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By winxlite:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


Please define "function", and how would they be doing if they weren't favored with an abundance of natural resources?



function - it is broadly encompassing word for a reason.

Who is "they" Ukraine? What abundance? They have more than many, but the situation there is beyond frustrating.


Function with regards to efficiency and productivity. I was thinking primarily in regards to Russia when I mentioned natural resources.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:38:59 PM EST
ZOMBIES
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:43:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 5:54:51 PM EST by Bohr_Adam]
Originally Posted By winxlite:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By winxlite:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


Please define "function", and how would they be doing if they weren't favored with an abundance of natural resources?



function - it is broadly encompassing word for a reason.

Who is "they" Ukraine? What abundance? They have more than many, but the situation there is beyond frustrating.


Function with regards to efficiency and productivity. I was thinking primarily in regards to Russia when I mentioned natural resources.


Russia is rapidly becoming a Eurasian version of a middle eastern oil kingdom. Putin realizes this is a dead end, but his world view of a zero sum economic game and the treachery of the west, combined with his absolute disdain for the idea of letting your own people make their own economic choices, means he will fail.

I had hopes Medvedev would grow a pair and spin off an opposition party. Those all got crushed this week.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:48:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Corruption and economic mismanagement.

So, in other words, that is us in a few years....
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:51:37 PM EST
They've also got the whole "Chernobyl" thing to deal with.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:51:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By winxlite:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By winxlite:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


Please define "function", and how would they be doing if they weren't favored with an abundance of natural resources?



function - it is broadly encompassing word for a reason.

Who is "they" Ukraine? What abundance? They have more than many, but the situation there is beyond frustrating.


Function with regards to efficiency and productivity. I was thinking primarily in regards to Russia when I mentioned natural resources.


Russia is rapidly becoming a Eurasian version of a middle eastern oil kingdom. Putin realizes this is a dead end, but his world view against of a zero sum economic gain, the treachery of the west, combined with his absolute disdain for the idea of letting your own people make their own economic choices means, means he will fail.

I had hopes Medvedev would grow a pair and spin off an opposition party. Those all got crushed this week.


Thanks
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:54:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
They've also got the whole "Chernobyl" thing to deal with.


That's one of the few things that helps more of them not see the Soviet system as the good old days. In their case, reality literally blew up in their face.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:57:16 PM EST



Because the worldwide market for nesting dolls is kind of limited.

And I don't know of another kind of product that is usually exported from the Ukraine. I'm sure there is something, but
nothing else stands out in my mind.


Well...maybe musical instruments that are shaped like a Dorito....


CJ
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:59:01 PM EST
Hey if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have all the surplus Russian ak stuff :)
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:59:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
They've also got the whole "Chernobyl" thing to deal with.


This would be true if they actually dealt with it instead of just fencing it off and ignoring it.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:59:52 PM EST

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 6:08:05 PM EST
I have a Kiev 88CM camera and lenses made in Ukraine. I'm pretty sure the company is out of business now a... it was called "Arsenal".
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 9:03:16 PM EST
Why do people call it "The Ukraine" instead of just "Ukraine"?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 9:19:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sleepy1988:
Why do people call it "The Ukraine" instead of just "Ukraine"?


IIRC, historically it was a part of Russia.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:40:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 11:40:44 PM EST by Possible_Spam]
Communism kills a nation's soul.

I have lived in those countries. Also, see USA in 25 years.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:46:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 11:52:23 PM EST by nchapa]
Originally Posted By johnnieblue:
Originally Posted By Sleepy1988:
Why do people call it "The Ukraine" instead of just "Ukraine"?


IIRC, historically it was a part of Russia.


you mean USSR? Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 11:56:31 PM EST
Great country but with to much Corruption and they are still stuck in a communist mind set with little initiative from individuals.

Tehy are great workers (when not drunk) but need to be told what to do and how to solve problems, they are quite capable of solving any problem but seem scarred to take initiative
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 5:45:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By johnnieblue:
Originally Posted By Sleepy1988:
Why do people call it "The Ukraine" instead of just "Ukraine"?


IIRC, historically it was a part of Russia.


you mean USSR? Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,


No, Russia. The USSR was assembled together from Tsarist Russia after the commie revolution.

Ukraine is actually a very condescending term in a way, reflecting the idea it is distant from the heart of Russian Civilization. The irony here is that Kiev was the first "Russian" state. However, when the Russian people reconsolidated under Muscovy rule, the region around Kiev was called "Ukraine" - loosely analogous to concepts like "the Frontier" or "the Boonies" or maybe, as in Australia "the Outback." It then kind of morphed in time to a place name.

Putin has publically stated he doesn't believe Ukraine is a sovereign country or worthy of being considered one, that it owes its very existence to Moscow.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 6:51:42 AM EST
I grew up in Upstate New York, we had a population of Ukrainians within our community. The post WWII Ukrainian immigrants did not think favorably of the pre WWII immigrants. They thought the earlier Ukrainian immigrants drank too much and worked too little. Both communities stuck to themselves pretty much. The one time we heard from then was when they did a silent march, protesting Khrushchev's visit to the UN in NYC. Butcher of the Ukraine is what they called him.

The post WWII Ukrainians worked very hard and saved their money. They did things on a cash basis and did not get into debt. Their children were different, they got into more trouble and such, but like their parents they were very good at getting the best deal on purchases.

Like a wise man said, above, communism destroys the soul, post WWII Ukrainian immigrants stayed as far from it as they could.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:00:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

I had hopes Medvedev would grow a pair and spin off an opposition party. Those all got crushed this week.



This is a bit like hoping Rahm Emanuel would form a party to oppose Obama.

Medvedev knows what's good for him but probably also realizes and remembers what happened to most of Stalin's closest confidants and advisors at some point...but you really would think people would learn.


Still,doesn't stop God knows how many people on here saying " I wish Putin was our leader.He is shirtless and strong and manly". I believe the term would be useful idiots.


Opposition to Putin? If you're lucky,he only seizes your assets and throws you in jail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/8802732/Leaked-document-reveals-plans-to-eliminate-Russias-enemies-overseas.html


I guess it's OK since Dubya looked long and deep into his eyes and swooned for him too


FWIW.I'm not too concerned with Russia being uppity now...it's when the inevitable happens,shit falls apart and they need an external enemy to blame.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:02:43 AM EST
when your only export is hot women its hard to make a buck
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:04:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sleepy1988:
Why do people call it "The Ukraine" instead of just "Ukraine"?


Blame the English who also still refer to it as The Lebanon,The Sudan,The Czech Republic...but we do call that portion of NYC The Bronx...
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:09:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
when your only export is hot women its hard to make a buck


true, their porn industry is pretty , ...shall we say,.. bold.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:11:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
http://www.russia-ukraine-travel.com/image-files/nesting-dolls.jpg


Because the worldwide market for nesting dolls is kind of limited.

And I don't know of another kind of product that is usually exported from the Ukraine. I'm sure there is something, but
nothing else stands out in my mind.


Well...maybe musical instruments that are shaped like a Dorito....


CJ


They need to sell more Mosins.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:17:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By Recusance:
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
when your only export is hot women its hard to make a buck


true, their porn industry is pretty , ...shall we say,.. bold.


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:32:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:37:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Russia is rapidly becoming a Eurasian version of a middle eastern oil kingdom. Putin realizes this is a dead end, but his world view of a zero sum economic game and the treachery of the west, combined with his absolute disdain for the idea of letting your own people make their own economic choices, means he will fail.

I had hopes Medvedev would grow a pair and spin off an opposition party. Those all got crushed this week.


They should have worked towards becoming close friends with the West. But Russians see threats everywhere.

I had hopes that after the Cold War they would actually liberalize, but I never had high hopes for Medvedev.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:41:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By outofbattery:
Still,doesn't stop God knows how many people on here saying " I wish Putin was our leader.He is shirtless and strong and manly". I believe the term would be useful idiots.


I don't recall anyone saying they wished Putin was our leader.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:43:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 9:48:26 AM EST by gene_wi]
Because they are leeches and have always been leeches. Always ready to sell themselves to the highest bidder, etc... I still have family that lives in the Ukraine, its no different than living in Africa, same mentality and same corruption levels.

Maybe if they stopped bitching about the terrible horrible Russian and went to work or something, they would be better off.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:48:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.

+1

One of my uncles runs a commercial port in the Ukraine. He prefers not to hire anyone from the Ukraine if he can.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:57:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.



You must have missed a lot of threads. For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything. GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:07:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Russia is rapidly becoming a Eurasian version of a middle eastern oil kingdom. Putin realizes this is a dead end, but his world view of a zero sum economic game and the treachery of the west, combined with his absolute disdain for the idea of letting your own people make their own economic choices, means he will fail.

I had hopes Medvedev would grow a pair and spin off an opposition party. Those all got crushed this week.


Russia as Saudi Arabia. Not good for us, but terminal for them.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:10:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.



You must have missed a lot of threads. For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything. GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.


Which books?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:12:37 AM EST
The average wage is around $200/month and the cost of living (outside Kieve) is relatively low. Many Ukrainians had hope that they could end corruption with the Orange Revolution but the new officials were also corrupted by power.

This is a great country mismanaged by years of living under communism so the average citizen has no concept of what drives an economy. Keep in mind, most of these people are squatters that never had to buy their own homes or property. Because of this, very little has been spent to maintain the infrastructure since the collapse of the USSR - streets and buildings are crumbling. These people do not understand that they need to make money to spend money, so instead, they sit in their free apartments/shacks unemployed. It can become very frustrating for a Westerner to comprehend and I am still trying to determine how a businessman can succeed (without the assistance of govt/bribes).

With that said, these people have been extremely warm and friendly to Americans and dream of an opportunity to visit/move. Sadly, I'm convinced their majory export is the select female population. Because of this, they mostly see Western men and not that many American women so they expect we are there with $$$$ to spend. So, a guy can retire to Ukraine with $20K for a NICE house in the rural area and live for about $200 month if you know the locals.

There is a reason for the joke "Don't ask where I got my first Milliion".
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:12:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
http://www.russia-ukraine-travel.com/image-files/nesting-dolls.jpg


Because the worldwide market for nesting dolls is kind of limited.

And I don't know of another kind of product that is usually exported from the Ukraine. I'm sure there is something, but
nothing else stands out in my mind.


Well...maybe musical instruments that are shaped like a Dorito....


CJ


Somewhere around here is a bottle of beer from the region, it's pretty decent.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 10:14:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Dealing with some former Soviet people is A) a lesson in why "race" is not the key cultural variable so many here think it is, and B) a revelation that it truly is possible for an entire chunk of the world to function with the mentality of an urban American ghetto - from consuming habits, to voting habits, to perceptions of the success of outsiders.


I don't think many here consider race a key cultural variable.



You must have missed a lot of threads. For some people, its their flippant answer and explanation for nearly everything. GD has taught me about books and below the radar academic I had never heard of, arguing this very point.


Which books?


And which academic?



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