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Posted: 8/17/2004 8:13:57 PM EST
They enforce the laws on highly-lucrative revenue-producing commodities for the gov't. Any opinions?
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:15:32 PM EST
Because instead of actually solving cases they would rather burn the house down.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:16:49 PM EST
HA! Because, alcohol, tobacco and firearms are evil.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:17:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 8:17:27 PM EST by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:18:04 PM EST
Im just wondering what do you mean by less Prestigous.

Are they really Law Enforcement in the same way of FBI. For a long time they were Treasury.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:18:55 PM EST
Because, like the California Highway Patrol, they spend more time hassling regular taxpayers than busting real criminals?
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:22:33 PM EST
How many times have we seen a person here (or on other boards) say "I'd like to try for a job with the FBI, USSS, USBP" etc...?

How many times have we seen a person here (or on other boards) say "I'd like to try for a job with the ATF?"

Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:24:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 8:25:28 PM EST by Fat_McNasty]

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
How many times have we seen a person here (or on other boards) say "I'd like to try for a job with the ATF?"




Once and it was me!

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=263603
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:25:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
Because, like the California Highway Patrol, they spend more time hassling regular taxpayers than busting real criminals?



Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:28:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

Originally Posted By Airwolf:
How many times have we seen a person here (or on other boards) say "I'd like to try for a job with the ATF?"




Once and it was me!

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=263603



D'OH!

I got to admit, you are the ONLY person that I've seen ask that question in nearly 3 years on the gunboards.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:36:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:50:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 8:52:11 PM EST
Because the BATFE...SUCKS
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:01:03 PM EST
They are considered less professional, worse trained and they have lower integrity than all of law enforcement. They have been caught fabricating evidence, they are allowed to read and misinterpret laws as they see fit, they have shot and killed folks for no other reason than misstatements on a search warrant. The list goes on and on and on.

Locally, about 5 years ago, they dragged a woman from her home and left her infant in a tub of water, as the woman screamed to save her kid, they kicked, stomped and pepper sprayed her. The neighbor lady ran in to get the kid and was arrested, the kid left lying on the front lawn naked in November. While ransacking the house they stomped the family cat to death and left it in the living room floor. They said that there were signs of domestic terrorism, namely home schooling and religous teaching and the husband had purchased several legal to own firearms. None of it was ever explained it just disapppeared quietly.

In Idaho, 65 miles away, they started all the shit with Randy Weaver, they started all the shit at Waco. I bought a copy of the Waco warrant for a dollar at a gunshow, it listed all kinds of shit, almost none of it firearms related. It forgot to mention there was a licensed class 3 ,FFL living on the property. That made hearing "machine gun fire" perfectly acceptable. If they wanted David Koresh, he drove into town every day for mail and ice cream. They wanted a media circus and got one.

They do some positive stuff with fire, arson and explosives. But in terms of firearms or professional law enforcement, they have an anti-gun agenda and a bias towards anti-gun rulings. In the Waco mess they shot and killed one another and tried to blame the religous nuts,,,the video clearly shows officers shooting one another like a polack firing squad. If you find the video, watch the second floor window, three guys go in the forth walks up to the window and empties a mag from an MP-5 into the first three guys and crawls away.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 9:18:59 PM EST
In a documentary made a few years ago and shown either on the History Channel or Discovery Channel a high ranking person in the ATF was astounded that people would think that the Founding Fathers would want an armed citizentry to rival the Federal Gov't. He thought it was ridiculous that people would interpet the FFs words that way. It was obvious this man did not know his history, the FF's words and intentions and their justifications for them (which are available to all who care to check it out), or care about it anyway, and this man is supposed to enforce laws? How could this idiot know the difference between a just law and oppression? He's an oppressor himself. I do have this documentary on tape so I can reference it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:27:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Taxman:
Im just wondering what do you mean by less Prestigous.

Are they really Law Enforcement in the same way of FBI. For a long time they were Treasury.



Like Airwolf is saying, rarely is there someone who asks about joining BATF on this board. It's terrible that a federal law enforcement agency has gained such a pathetic reputation. It only makes it that much more difficult for them to recruit good people.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:33:16 AM EST
They are less respected because they're closer to being JBTs than most of the other organizations you listed.

- CD
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:37:42 AM EST
Ruby Ridge

Waco, TX
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:38:12 AM EST
because everyone quotes their acronym incorrectly.

Call them the BATFE (explosives, not enforcement as many have posited) and they'll start getting some.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:40:40 AM EST
I'm confused, when did "prestigious" and "federal law enforcement agency" get used in the same sentence.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:42:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 3:44:34 AM EST by Jarhead_22]
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:43:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 3:44:02 AM EST by mr_wilson]
Guess it's time to post this again:

Read the Committee print of “The Right to Keep and Bear Arms”; Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary/ US. Senate, 97th Congress, Second Session, published in February 1982.

(Excerpts from pages 19-23)

“Based upon these hearings it is apparent that enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible. Although Congress adopted the Gun Control Act with the primary object of limiting access of felons and high-risk groups to firearms, the overbreadth of the law has led to neglect of precisely this area of enforcement.”

“The Bureau’s (BATF) own figures demonstrate that in recent years the percentage of its arrests devoted to felons in possession and persons knowingly selling to them have dropped from 14% down to 10% of their firearms cases.”

“Yet, subsequent to these hearings, BATF stated that 55% of its gun law prosecutions overall involve persons with no record of a felony conviction, and a third involve citizens with no prior police contact at all.
The Subcommittee received evidence that BATF has primarily devoted its firearm enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge.”

“These practices, amply documented in hearings before this Subcommittee, leave little doubt that the Bureau has disregarded rights guaranteed by the constitution and the laws of the United States.
It has trampled upon the second amendment by chilling exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law-abiding citizens.
It has offended the fourth amendment by unreasonably searching and seizing property.
It has ignored the Fifth Amendment by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens without regard for their right to due process of law.”


Does this give ya some idea????

Mike
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:43:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
because everyone quotes their acronym incorrectly.

Call them the BATFE (explosives, not enforcement as many have posited) and they'll start getting some.



yea correct spellings immediately lead to respect!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:10:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Does this give ya some idea????

Mike



Unfortunately, Yes.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:24:21 AM EST
Because they're SUPPOSED to be a Tax agency, but because there is basically no oversight at the federal level, any agency that wants to can order a bunch of guns and ninja equipment. Thus was born a culture at the ATF.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:46:54 AM EST
"Why is the BATF considered less prestigious "

Because they are staffed by shitbirds and JBTs?
Because their dumbass rambo 'dynamic' behaviour has KILLED so many people who could otherwise been taken down unawares while they went about their business in public?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:09:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 9:10:36 AM EST by HKocher]

Originally Posted By UPD415:
In a documentary made a few years ago and shown either on the History Channel or Discovery Channel a high ranking person in the ATF was astounded that people would think that the Founding Fathers would want an armed citizentry to rival the Federal Gov't. He thought it was ridiculous that people would interpet the FFs words that way. It was obvious this man did not know his history, the FF's words and intentions and their justifications for them (which are available to all who care to check it out), or care about it anyway, and this man is supposed to enforce laws? How could this idiot know the difference between a just law and oppression? He's an oppressor himself. I do have this documentary on tape so I can reference it.



I saw that program too. Made me sick to my stomach that he would distort the 2nd Amendment like that.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:10:16 AM EST
This thread assumes that there are prestigious law enforcement agencies.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:20:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 9:20:36 AM EST by R-32]
Im very happy to see that the resident Cops on this board are not here trying to pull for the BATFE like they would if someone posted a story of a cop shooting a dog or something....



Maybe that tells you something?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:24:44 AM EST
I see them on a regular basis and a few are OK but too many are cocky and belligerant. I work where they train and it's amazing how much better they think they are than everyone else.

The few that are OK are not bad. Even nice to talk to. But the students tend to think they are bullet proof.

An older guy who works with me was sitting near a few of the bad ones during lunch. He overheard them talking about confiscating guns, etc. One of the students asked him " old man, what are you going to do when we come to get your guns?"

He asked them which one of them was going to be first in the door cause he was sure to die.

They sneered at him and left.

It's sad they culture that exists in that agency.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:26:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:28:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By jduncan1:
I see them on a regular basis and a few are OK but too many are cocky and belligerant. I work where they train and it's amazing how much better they think they are than everyone else.

The few that are OK are not bad. Even nice to talk to. But the students tend to think they are bullet proof.

An older guy who works with me was sitting near a few of the bad ones during lunch. He overheard them talking about confiscating guns, etc. One of the students asked him " old man, what are you going to do when we come to get your guns?"

He asked them which one of them was going to be first in the door cause he was sure to die.

They sneered at him and left.

It's sad they culture that exists in that agency.





that's just downright disgusting. good for the "old man," though i would asked who the first five would be the first.
mp
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:33:50 AM EST
They are JBT's, criminals by violating our rights, our version of the SS
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:44:08 AM EST
Small penises = less pestige.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:35:38 AM EST
Now that we have all the JBT info out of the way, the reason the ATF is considers less prestigious is:

They are considered less prestigious BY OTHER FEDERAL AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

The reasons are several:
1. Lower qualifications to join.
All Federal LE applicants take a standard test.
The FBI and Secret Service are known as 90%-ers for the required test scores.
The DEA and Border Patrol are 80%-ers.
The ATF requires only a passing grade in the 70% range.

For this reason OTHER Feds call them 70%-ers, and have a low opinion of them.
In other words, "They just aren't smart enough to be FBI or Secret Service, and not even smart enough to be DEA or Border Patrol".

2. Lack of high profile "Good busts".
We're all familiar with the "standard" public press conference after a big Federal investigation.
There's the official standing at the podium making the statement. Behind him are Federal agents wearing their "bust jackets" with FBI or DEA printed on them.
Also prominently displayed is a long table loaded down with huge piles of drugs, cash, and illegal weapons.
There are pictures of a fair number of sinister looking suspects doing "the perp walk".
The press turns out in droves for these affairs, because they ARE important.

Now consider the "standard" ATF bust.
Their usual investigation involves some small-time punk illegal gun dealer selling a few cheap pistols from the trunk of his car, or some legal gun dealer caught in a paper work error.

In the case of the car trunk dealer, the big press conference would have a card table with 10 or 15 cheap pistols, a couple of hundred dollars and a few marijuana cigarettes or a vial or two of crack.
The big "perp walk" is done by one sleazy little creep that usually looks like a child molester, not a big time criminal.

The legal dealer conference involves NO table, No cash, No drugs, and No illegal guns at all.
The "perp walk", if shown at all involves someone who looks like your Dad, and is obviously not a professional criminal.

After rushing to attend a press conference like this, the press no longer shows up for such nickel and dime crap.

This lack of the vaunted "Big Bust" limits the exposure to good publicity for the ATF, and what usually gets the press is BAD publicity when they screw up.

When the FBI screw up, they can always point to the good jobs like busting dangerous bank robbery teams, kidnappers, or spy rings.

The ATF can point to......what?

For these reasons: low opinion of OTHER Federal agents, lack of Big Busts and good publicity, and Bad Busts and poor publicity, the ATF "don't get no respect".

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:48:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 10:48:38 AM EST by SJSAMPLE]
I don't know, but I remember a bunch of huffing, puffing fatasses "running" down a Waco after retreating from an assault they staged. I laughed my ass off and haven't stopped laughing at them since.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 10:56:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By faris:

1. Lower qualifications to join.
All Federal LE applicants take a standard test.
The FBI and Secret Service are known as 90%-ers for the required test scores.
The DEA and Border Patrol are 80%-ers.
The ATF requires only a passing grade in the 70% range.

For this reason OTHER Feds call them 70%-ers, and have a low opinion of them.
In other words, "They just aren't smart enough to be FBI or Secret Service, and not even smart enough to be DEA or Border Patrol".




Where did you get that idea? I'm pretty sure that each agency has it's own standardized tests and requirements. Well, maybe Border Patrol and Customs take the same tests, since they are both under the Dept. of Homeland Security now.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:42:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:44:50 PM EST by five-star]
It goes all the back to the Ballew case when they set a guy up dressed like hippies, back in '71. It was all FUBAR. They shot him in the head but he lived, but he didn't get anything when he sued. The NRA has more info in the back issues.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:01:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:
They enforce the laws on highly-lucrative revenue-producing commodities for the gov't. Any opinions?



ATF is a bunch of accountants with guns...

They don't do drug enforcement, anti-terror, organized crime, fugitive recovery, or any of the 'sexy' work that the FBI, DEA, US Marshals, and such do...
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:38:00 PM EST
I have worked in TSCM (Technical Security Countermeasures) and ECM (Electronic Countermeasures) for most of my adult life. (Wiretap and defense against wiretap)

I am not a federal JBT, but over the years I have had the opportunity to work with many of them from various law enforcement and military agencies including FBI, CIA, SPECWAR, DEA, US Treasury Dept, IRS, (no, IRS and Treasury Dept are not necessarily the same), US Postal Inspectors (division of US Justice Dept, Postal Inspectors have not been under the supervision of the USPS since about 1972 when USPS was "privatized" from the federal gov't standpoint), not to mention Mexican Federale and some other foreign agencies that are friendly with this our country, and I have heard lots said in some agencies about those in other agencies and have even considered joining more than a few listed here.

In summary; The NSA and CIA seem to get the cream of the crop in math, languages, technical sciences like computers, etc and they look for high GPA's in college and post grad studies.

FBI was looking for CPA's, law degrees, etc and was also recruiting only those with 3.5 overall GPA's and higher.

IRS always had a hard time getting agents due to a 3-year audit required on all prospective new hires. This usually limited them to applicants who were fresh out of college and never filed anything more that a standard 1040EZ short form with standard deductions. Same goes for Treasury Dept, they were usually looking for business degrees but would take less than perfect GPA's.

and after that came DEA who usually hire from ranks of state and municipal LEO's.

and last (and certainly least) if one couldn't qualify for any of the above, there was always BATF with almost no GPA required.

I have conducted sweeps searching for listening devices in both public and private sectors. The old joke was "what do you do when you find a bug that is marked JSI Telecom" (they only sell to gov't sector) Most of the ones we found were located because there was no Title III paperwork filed on them. And, most of the clandestine devices we found were put there by DEA and BATF without the proper paperwork. These were placed by unscrupulous JBT's who were on "Fishing Expeditions". That's to say that they would plant an illegal wiretap and then hope to get usefull intelligence, even though they could not use the information in court as the tap was illegal. THEN they would try to get the tap certified even though it was already in place by presenting a judge with intel that had been gained illegaly along with some shiite and shinola story(like that they had used a legal DNR dialed-number-recorder which does NOT require a warrant) to justify the first tap that the judge was unaware of.

I have no mercy for illegal bugs, whether planted by crooks or by JBT's who couldn't justify a Title III to get the tap legally. I have taken more than one "slave" off of a line just to be contacted later by some anxious and overzealous JBT that wanted to get it back into the supply locker before it was missed as being checked out without a Title III. I have usually told them that they could get it back from my (or their) supervisor. Fortunately, my supervisors have had no mercy on illegal taps either. They are usually placed by those who didn't study, don't know, or don't care about the law or standard operating procedures.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:15:36 PM EST
The real answer:

Because J. Edgar Hoover was such a good salesman.

(Actually, there are feds with IMHO lower standing than ATF. Examples would be the IRS, Immigration, and a lot of smaller outfits like Agriculture, EPA, the IG’s and such. You could also argue about the U.S. Marshals - and BP is an issue unto itself.)
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:16:05 PM EST
I'll say it again: they are (were ) a tax agency, but somewhere along the line, someone decided that they should buy guns and ninja equipment. And, because there is such a lack of oversight at the federal level, there is nobody to tell them that they can't.

I really truly believe there only needs to be one federal law enforcement agency, and they need to be good at what they do. I vote for the FBI...I guess they're the closest.

OH I read somewhere that there are literally hundreds of agencies each with their own "police" force (big or small) that carry guns and bring a world of hurt on people for breaking federal regs.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:27:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By jblachly:
I'll say it again: they are (were ) a tax agency, but somewhere along the line, someone decided that they should buy guns and ninja equipment. And, because there is such a lack of oversight at the federal level, there is nobody to tell them that they can't.

I really truly believe there only needs to be one federal law enforcement agency, and they need to be good at what they do. I vote for the FBI...I guess they're the closest.

OH I read somewhere that there are literally hundreds of agencies each with their own "police" force (big or small) that carry guns and bring a world of hurt on people for breaking federal regs.



One of those would be the Dept. Of Agriculture.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:03:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By HKocher:

Originally Posted By UPD415:
In a documentary made a few years ago and shown either on the History Channel or Discovery Channel a high ranking person in the ATF was astounded that people would think that the Founding Fathers would want an armed citizentry to rival the Federal Gov't. He thought it was ridiculous that people would interpet the FFs words that way. It was obvious this man did not know his history, the FF's words and intentions and their justifications for them (which are available to all who care to check it out), or care about it anyway, and this man is supposed to enforce laws? How could this idiot know the difference between a just law and oppression? He's an oppressor himself. I do have this documentary on tape so I can reference it.



I saw that program too. Made me sick to my stomach that he would distort the 2nd Amendment like that.



I think that what really got to me was the "surprise" and "shock" in his voice as he spewed forth his crap. Just like you HK it made me sick too (as well as angry- obviously).
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:53:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By lonegunman:
They are considered less professional, worse trained and they have lower integrity than all of law enforcement. They have been caught fabricating evidence, they are allowed to read and misinterpret laws as they see fit, they have shot and killed folks for no other reason than misstatements on a search warrant. The list goes on and on and on.

Locally, about 5 years ago, they dragged a woman from her home and left her infant in a tub of water, as the woman screamed to save her kid, they kicked, stomped and pepper sprayed her. The neighbor lady ran in to get the kid and was arrested, the kid left lying on the front lawn naked in November. While ransacking the house they stomped the family cat to death and left it in the living room floor. They said that there were signs of domestic terrorism, namely home schooling and religous teaching and the husband had purchased several legal to own firearms. None of it was ever explained it just disapppeared quietly.
quote]


If a fed agent ever did that to my son he better hide for the rest of his life cause when i find his ass it isnt going to be pretty.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:53:52 AM EST
Who was it who said Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store... Not a Gov't agency.....
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:58:13 AM EST
Why is the BATF considered less prestigious than other federal law-enforcement agencies? (Page 1)

As hard as it may be to believe that something could stink worse than the other Fedfukk JBT agencies, BATF has managed to rise (sink?) to the occasion. To add insult to injury, we get to pay for it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:09:27 AM EST

Originally posted by Dave_A:

ATF is a bunch of accountants with guns...



This is as ludicrous an assertion as your previous claim that Vicki Weaver was holding a "broomstick" instead of her baby daughter, Elisheba, when she was shot by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi.

You will have to look long and hard to find a BATFE agent with a degree in Accounting.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:15:35 AM EST
A few years ago there was a class action lawsuit against the ATF by black ATF agents, as the ATF was internally racist. Remember the good ole boy convention?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:15:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By AbnInfantry:

You will have to look long and hard to find a BATFE agent with a degree in Accounting.



Willing to bet you'd have to do that to find a BATFE agent with a degree.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 5:09:42 PM EST
"In the Waco mess they shot and killed one another and tried to blame the religous nuts,,,the video clearly shows officers shooting one another like a polack firing squad. If you find the video, watch the second floor window, three guys go in the forth walks up to the window and empties a mag from an MP-5 into the first three guys and crawls away."

Actually, it was a little different...


While climbing up the ladder to the second floor window, one ATF'r tries to pull his pistol from leg holster, and shoots self in leg. (Duh, finger on trigger). Damn, bet that hurt!

Three ATF'er's go through the window,

Fourth ATF'er tosses grenade through window AFTER his three fellow ATF'rs go through, takes some fire (from his buddies?)

THEN he dumps his MP5 throught the window.

Keystone Kops is the only way to describe this.

70%'rs? Hard to imagine they scored this high.
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