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Posted: 7/20/2010 4:17:01 PM EST
It seems like ever kid wants to do BJJ but none of them will do High Schol wrestling?

Wouldn't wrestling be a very good way to learn to grapple?
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:17:33 PM EST
[#1]
Its Tier 1, dude.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:22:28 PM EST
[#2]
BJJ?

Sorry.  I didn't get the memo.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:23:10 PM EST
[#3]



Quoted:


BJJ?



Sorry.  I didn't get the memo.


Brazilian Ju Jitsu (sp?)

 
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:24:29 PM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
Its Tier 1, dude.


Yeah, wrestling is totally tier 4.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:25:01 PM EST
[#5]
Because of MMA.

They are both excellent sports.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:25:42 PM EST
[#6]
good question
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:25:58 PM EST
[#7]
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:26:55 PM EST
[#8]
All that "professional" scripted fake crap on TV.  It is as bad as a soap opera.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:29:04 PM EST
[#9]
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:29:50 PM EST
[#10]
Triangle choke has to be the most hilarious way to make someone go unconscious.
Chokee-  Oh God!  I'm going to pass out (starts getting tunnel vision, grey creeping into peripheral vision).  Ugh, this guy's balls smell like rotten avocados! *PASSES OUT*

 
 
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:31:40 PM EST
[#11]
Wrestling is a much more physically demanding sport. in my experience bjj is much less cardio and strength/balance oriented. to put it in a way someone is bound to get butthurt over wrestling=sport, bjj=game. ymmv

for reference i wrestled for 20 yrs, and practiced bjj for <1 year so i may be biased. But look at past and current mma champions and the ratio of wrestlers:bjj, wrestlers are way ahead.

thanks

bahbo
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:32:13 PM EST
[#12]
Quoted:
Triangle choke has to be the most hilarious way to make someone go unconscious.

Chokee-  Oh God!  I'm going to pass out (starts getting tunnel vision, grey creeping into peripheral vision).  Ugh, this guy's balls smell like rotten avocados! *PASSES OUT*    


LOL
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:34:22 PM EST
[#13]
Quoted:
All that "professional" scripted fake crap on TV.  It is as bad as a soap opera.


No not that bullshit, im talking high school/college wrestling.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:37:45 PM EST
[#14]
Whats funny is, besides Silva, the UFC's best and upcoming have stronger backgrounds in wrestling, then BJJ
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:38:37 PM EST
[#15]
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:41:23 PM EST
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...


Being in your back is the dominate position in bjj as long as the opponent is in your guard.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:44:08 PM EST
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...


Being in your back is the dominate position in bjj as long as the opponent is in your guard.


I thought guard was considered neutral?
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:44:11 PM EST
[#18]
I think part of the problem is wrestling is very regional.  Where I grew up there were no wrestling programs.  Wrestling also hasn't traditionally been offered outside of the school system.  BJJ academies are almost everywhere.



Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:44:37 PM EST
[#19]
Nope.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:45:33 PM EST
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...


Being in your back is the dominate position in bjj as long as the opponent is in your guard.


I thought guard was considered neutral?


Dominance is determined by leg position. IE around the waist.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 4:46:41 PM EST
[#21]
Wrestling is a no go when it comes to actually fighting.  
You give up your back to avoid being pinned.  Giving up your back in a real fight means it's nighty-night time.  
Getting pinned in wrestling = you feel bad and have to shake opposing coach's hand while looking at floor
Getting choked out in a fight = you get curbed / have head stomped in / suprise buttsecks!

I does provide incredible conditioning and some general brutality training, but BJJ can do that too.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:09:48 PM EST
[#22]
Quoted:
Wrestling is a no go when it comes to actually fighting.  
You give up your back to avoid being pinned.  Giving up your back in a real fight means it's nighty-night time.  
Getting pinned in wrestling = you feel bad and have to shake opposing coach's hand while looking at floor
Getting choked out in a fight = you get curbed / have head stomped in / suprise buttsecks!

I does provide incredible conditioning and some general brutality training, but BJJ can do that too.


Um... I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Wrestling is great for fighting.
Getting a good wrestlers back is easier said than done. Wrestlers are taught to be aggressive especially on their feet so in most situations wrestlers will take their opponents down. Hard to take someones back when they're GNP you.
There are submission wins in wrestling, though rare.
Getting thrown onto the curb will render you just as unconscience.

In my experience I could roll for hours in bjj where as wrestling I was wrecked much much sooner.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:14:48 PM EST
[#23]
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  


Funny - I know that, when my shoulders both touched the mat, the match was over.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:18:16 PM EST
[#24]
BJJ, not to be confused with BBJ.






Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:19:01 PM EST
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is a no go when it comes to actually fighting.  
You give up your back to avoid being pinned.  Giving up your back in a real fight means it's nighty-night time.  
Getting pinned in wrestling = you feel bad and have to shake opposing coach's hand while looking at floor
Getting choked out in a fight = you get curbed / have head stomped in / suprise buttsecks!

I does provide incredible conditioning and some general brutality training, but BJJ can do that too.


Um... I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Wrestling is great for fighting.
Getting a good wrestlers back is easier said than done. Wrestlers are taught to be aggressive especially on their feet so in most situations wrestlers will take their opponents down. Hard to take someones back when they're GNP you.
There are submission wins in wrestling, though rare.
Getting thrown onto the curb will render you just as unconscience.

In my experience I could roll for hours in bjj where as wrestling I was wrecked much much sooner.


We also have to look at greco-roman and freestyle wrestling.  Folkstyle is pretty much exclusively an American practice.  A good wrestler knows how to control his balance and his body, so it's also beneficial, though the actual techniques in BJJ are more fitting for a fight situation.  

For posterity, I'm looking for the video of the olympic freestyle wrestler who suplexes the dude twice his size...

Found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n79wBw_LJ9Y
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:22:07 PM EST
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...


Being in your back is the dominate position in bjj as long as the opponent is in your guard.


I thought guard was considered neutral?


Greg, you are very wrong.  This thread has several comments that are just unlearned.  Not hating on anyone, but not sure where to begin.  both wrestling and BJJ are very valuable skills that compliment each other.  the best bjj guys in my opinion have wrestling experience.  Some bad habits but they can quickly adapt.

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:23:06 PM EST
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...


Being in your back is the dominate position in bjj as long as the opponent is in your guard.


I thought guard was considered neutral?


Dominance is determined by leg position. IE around the waist.


wrong.  open guard can be offensive.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:24:36 PM EST
[#28]
Greatest Olympic wrestler of all time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Karelin

Watch the YouTube videos of him he was a freaking animal.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:27:02 PM EST
[#29]
Quoted:
Wrestling is a much more physically demanding sport. in my experience bjj is much less cardio and strength/balance oriented. to put it in a way someone is bound to get butthurt over wrestling=sport, bjj=game. ymmv

for reference i wrestled for 20 yrs, and practiced bjj for <1 year so i may be biased. But look at past and current mma champions and the ratio of wrestlers:bjj, wrestlers are way ahead.

thanks

bahbo


disagree - I love guys that lack cardio.  one minute into it, they start to get tired....two minutes they are very vulnerable.  When I fight wrestlers, they are normally tired long before I am.

edit for credentials: I am a blue belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  (BJJ is BJJ anywhere you go in my opinion, whether Gracie or not)
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:29:17 PM EST
[#30]
By itself, BJJ is a complete system for self defense or sport. Whereas wrestling is missing the finishing aspect, other than pins.

However, there is no better base for MMA than wrestling. The wrestler can generally dictate if the fight is going to be a standing or on the ground.

Most wrestlers can get a good grip on the submission game and adapt it into their wrestling in just a few months...but a BJJ student generally takes a lot longer to even get a very basic grasp of wrestling.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:31:43 PM EST
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is a much more physically demanding sport. in my experience bjj is much less cardio and strength/balance oriented. to put it in a way someone is bound to get butthurt over wrestling=sport, bjj=game. ymmv

for reference i wrestled for 20 yrs, and practiced bjj for <1 year so i may be biased. But look at past and current mma champions and the ratio of wrestlers:bjj, wrestlers are way ahead.

thanks

bahbo


disagree - I love guys that lack cardio.  one minute into it, they start to get tired....two minutes they are very vulnerable.  When I fight wrestlers, they are normally tired long before I am.

edit for credentials: I am a blue belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  (BJJ is BJJ anywhere you go in my opinion, whether Gracie or not)


Correlation doesn't prove causation, in other words you my be fitter than any wrestler you've competed with, but not every BJJ or wrestler is in the same shape,  A lot of wrestlers are fitter than BJJ fighters, and vice versa.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:31:50 PM EST
[#32]
The "finishing", submission, and bone-snapping holds in freestyle wrestling are not allowed because it's a technical sport.
A strong cross face is a blow, you just can't make a fist when you deliver it.
Many of the leg holds are submission moves.
A Full Nelson is a lethal move, so is a suplex.

I choked a guy into unconsciousness in a high school match.
It's not hard to do if you crank the legal hold up tight.
I had his left forearm across his own throat and a Half Nelson around that.
I turned him with it and dug in, he went out and was pinned.

Your BJJ choke can't be countered with an eye gouge on the mat but it can on the street.
Always remember that, it applies to any technical combat sport.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:37:13 PM EST
[#33]
Quoted:
The "finishing", submission, and bone-snapping holds in freestyle wrestling are not allowed because it's a technical sport.
A strong cross face is a blow, you just can't make a fist when you deliver it.
Many of the leg holds are submission moves.
A Full Nelson is a lethal move, so is a suplex.

I choked a guy into unconsciousness in a high school match.
It's not hard to do if you crank the legal hold up tight.
I had his left forearm across his own throat and a Half Nelson around that.
I turned him with it and dug in, he went out and was pinned.

Your BJJ choke can't be countered with an eye gouge on the mat but it can on the street.
Always remember that, it applies to any technical combat sport.

If you want to see wrestling in it's closest to pure form (at least in the US) look at "catch wrestling" also I trained with Dan Severn and that man can teach you how to hurt someone real bad with simple alterations to common wrestling holds/moves.

Thanks

Bahbo
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:51:53 PM EST
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The "finishing", submission, and bone-snapping holds in freestyle wrestling are not allowed because it's a technical sport.
A strong cross face is a blow, you just can't make a fist when you deliver it.
Many of the leg holds are submission moves.
A Full Nelson is a lethal move, so is a suplex.

I choked a guy into unconsciousness in a high school match.
It's not hard to do if you crank the legal hold up tight.
I had his left forearm across his own throat and a Half Nelson around that.
I turned him with it and dug in, he went out and was pinned.

Your BJJ choke can't be countered with an eye gouge on the mat but it can on the street.
Always remember that, it applies to any technical combat sport.

If you want to see wrestling in it's closest to pure form (at least in the US) look at "catch wrestling" also I trained with Dan Severn and that man can teach you how to hurt someone real bad with simple alterations to common wrestling holds/moves.

Thanks

Bahbo


It happens by accident in freestyle.
A guy on my team had his elbow shattered in a match.
The other guy just drove right through it.
You could hear it break from the bench.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 6:28:04 PM EST
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is full of safetys.  There is no "finish".  BJJ in it's purest form is Very effective for 1 on 1.  Wrestling does not permit fighting off your back.  That is half of the fight in BJJ.  There are really no good BJJ fighters in UFC.  They don't want it.  It is not as fun/bloody to watch as a good slugger.


OK well that would piss me off too.  In BJJ being on your back is a neutral position, so alot of guys actually feel like they are in more control...

As far as UFC, if you dont know ground work I would think you would be screwed...


Being in your back is the dominate position in bjj as long as the opponent is in your guard.


I thought guard was considered neutral?


Dominance is determined by leg position. IE around the waist.


wrong.  open guard can be offensive.


Sorry, trying to keep it simple,  How about this, controlling your opponent with your legs allows you to use non striking attacks, whereas without leg control you have only strikes as what we would call "high percentage" attacks, if you can call them that.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:45:51 PM EST
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is a much more physically demanding sport. in my experience bjj is much less cardio and strength/balance oriented. to put it in a way someone is bound to get butthurt over wrestling=sport, bjj=game. ymmv

for reference i wrestled for 20 yrs, and practiced bjj for <1 year so i may be biased. But look at past and current mma champions and the ratio of wrestlers:bjj, wrestlers are way ahead.

thanks

bahbo


disagree - I love guys that lack cardio.  one minute into it, they start to get tired....two minutes they are very vulnerable.  When I fight wrestlers, they are normally tired long before I am.

edit for credentials: I am a blue belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  (BJJ is BJJ anywhere you go in my opinion, whether Gracie or not)


hahaha i can attest to that as a wrestler getting into bjj >.<;
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:58:56 PM EST
[#37]
Because BJJ is the BBBEEESSSSSTTTTT!!!!!!  I may be biased though.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:01:55 PM EST
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is a much more physically demanding sport. in my experience bjj is much less cardio and strength/balance oriented. to put it in a way someone is bound to get butthurt over wrestling=sport, bjj=game. ymmv

for reference i wrestled for 20 yrs, and practiced bjj for <1 year so i may be biased. But look at past and current mma champions and the ratio of wrestlers:bjj, wrestlers are way ahead.

thanks

bahbo


disagree - I love guys that lack cardio.  one minute into it, they start to get tired....two minutes they are very vulnerable.  When I fight wrestlers, they are normally tired long before I am.

edit for credentials: I am a blue belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu.  (BJJ is BJJ anywhere you go in my opinion, whether Gracie or not)


By chance, did you recently visit San Diego and roll at the Gracie school there?
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:03:07 PM EST
[#39]
Quoted:
It seems like ever kid wants to do BJJ but none of them will do High Schol wrestling?

Wouldn't wrestling be a very good way to learn to grapple?


Yes, HS wrestling would be good.

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:04:20 PM EST
[#40]
Quoted:
All that "professional" scripted fake crap on TV.  It is as bad as a soap opera.


Uh, UFC isn't scripted. It's MMA. But a Japanese pro wrestler did get the title "Gracie Hunter".

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:06:22 PM EST
[#41]
Simply put, if you're not punching or kicking, you are wrestling.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:07:12 PM EST
[#42]
we had to combine 2, sometimes 3 schools to fill our varsity spots.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:10:39 PM EST
[#43]
Quoted:
Whats funny is, besides Silva, the UFC's best and upcoming have stronger backgrounds in wrestling, then BJJ


It isn't so much greco Roman or Hs type wrestling, but catch wrestling that does well in UFC. Its the take downs where they are strong. Also, I suspect they learned some BJJ (or rather submission wrestling––no gi), since all of them seem to know guard based techniques.

I'd argue that true BJJ is in the gi. UFC fighting is no longer BJJ dominated, but you still need key BJJ skills. I practice BJJ but honestly only catch some UFC, so I might be missing something, but the key way wrestlers beat BJJ is by avoiding takedowns and employing boxing/kickboxing.

Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:20:58 PM EST
[#44]
High level wrestling is very regional and there's not much of a market after you finish college, BJJ is everywhere so you see it more and you can practice it even after you're 30. There's also the UFC factor that kids see what's popular on TV and want to do it.



Honestly wrestling is probably the best background to start from if you want to get serious in MMA, you get strength training, takedowns, takedown defense, how to control your opponent, how to cut weight, etc tc.




I'm pretty decent with BJJ but I fuckin' hate dealing with wrestlers because I'm going to get taken down 75% of the time and then they're going to lay on me and they're generally difficult to submit in moves that they know. I have noticed that wrestlers unfamiliar with BJJ submissions make some pretty funny mistakes at first though. Just last week I was rolling on the mat with a new guy and as I started to come around and get his back he forces his pelvis into the mat and arches with his neck out....it only took a couple of rear naked chokes to get him to change that. In 6 months he'll be much harder to submit once he learns that rolling onto your back doesn't mean you're losing.




I took a clinic with Dan Severn and that guy is a BEAST, he showed what a wrestler can accomplish in MMA. I'm not a wrestler so I learned a lot of simple but really cool shit over a weekend.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:42:31 PM EST
[#45]
I guess I'm the only man in the world that thinks that wrestling and grappling are about as exciting as watching the grass grow.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:57:06 PM EST
[#46]
Quoted:
High level wrestling is very regional and there's not much of a market after you finish college, BJJ is everywhere so you see it more and you can practice it even after you're 30. There's also the UFC factor that kids see what's popular on TV and want to do it.

Honestly wrestling is probably the best background to start from if you want to get serious in MMA, you get strength training, takedowns, takedown defense, how to control your opponent, how to cut weight, etc tc.

I'm pretty decent with BJJ but I fuckin' hate dealing with wrestlers because I'm going to get taken down 75% of the time and then they're going to lay on me and they're generally difficult to submit in moves that they know. I have noticed that wrestlers unfamiliar with BJJ submissions make some pretty funny mistakes at first though. Just last week I was rolling on the mat with a new guy and as I started to come around and get his back he forces his pelvis into the mat and arches with his neck out....it only took a couple of rear naked chokes to get him to change that. In 6 months he'll be much harder to submit once he learns that rolling onto your back doesn't mean you're losing.

I took a clinic with Dan Severn and that guy is a BEAST, he showed what a wrestler can accomplish in MMA. I'm not a wrestler so I learned a lot of simple but really cool shit over a weekend.


Bridging is something that gets beaten into wrestlers.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 8:59:53 PM EST
[#47]


You should also show the ones with Matt Hughs v. both Gracies.  Oh, wait a minute...Hughs won both
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 9:02:24 PM EST
[#48]
Singlets man. Singlets.

I walked away from wrestling in high school after finishing second in state one year cause of those damn singlets. There just isn't a way to not look gay wearing a singlet.  and wrestling heavyweight?   forget it.


now a ghi,  not nearly as ghey.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 9:33:08 PM EST
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wrestling is a no go when it comes to actually fighting.  
You give up your back to avoid being pinned.  Giving up your back in a real fight means it's nighty-night time.  
Getting pinned in wrestling = you feel bad and have to shake opposing coach's hand while looking at floor
Getting choked out in a fight = you get curbed / have head stomped in / suprise buttsecks!

I does provide incredible conditioning and some general brutality training, but BJJ can do that too.


Um... I'm going to have to disagree with you.
Wrestling is great for fighting.
Getting a good wrestlers back is easier said than done. Wrestlers are taught to be aggressive especially on their feet so in most situations wrestlers will take their opponents down. Hard to take someones back when they're GNP you.
There are submission wins in wrestling, though rare.
Getting thrown onto the curb will render you just as unconscience.

In my experience I could roll for hours in bjj where as wrestling I was wrecked much much sooner.



Having wrestled in high school, taken 1 year of BJJ, and now Krav, if the schizzle goes to the ground in a real fight, things are going to get bad.

That's when the bad guys friend kicks your head off of the 'T'.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 9:39:51 PM EST
[#50]
BJJ isn't better per-se, it is just more combat focused in its purest form. With that said, Wrestler/strikers who pick up some very basic BJJ submissions and learn how to work in guard are probably the toughest fighters on the planet. If you look at the world's best pound for pound fighter, GSP, his biggest asset is his domination in wrestling takedowns, people can absolutely not defend against his shots. Still, every wrestler has to train BJJ to compete in MMA (Frankie Edgar for example).

Top ten pound for pound fighters:

1. Georges St. Pierre - Wrestling
2. Anderson Silva - BJJ
3. Jose Aldo - BJJ
4. Frankie Edgar -Wrestling
5. BJ Penn- BJJ
6. Jon Fitch- Wrestling
7. Mauricio Rua  - BJJ
8. Jake Shields -Wrestling
9. Lyoto Machida - BJJ
10. Rashad Evans - Wrestling

Even split on core fighting styles. I'd say the two sports are complimentary and equally relevant in modern MMA. The one thing I have found about BJJ in the past is that unless someone trains with full contact sparring against good opponents for a long time, BJJ alone is insufficient to prepare anyone for self-defense. I was involved in MMA for a long time and typically I would beat BJJ students using wrestling alone unless they were very experienced. World-class wrestlers with some BJJ and sufficient training in striking are the world's greatest fighters imo.
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