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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 8/28/2004 12:37:32 PM EST
What purpose does that serve with a FMJ handgun bullet?

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:39:26 PM EST
I thought they didn't use high-pressure ammunition anymore?

This was the reason the SEAL teams officially switched to the SIG P226, though.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:40:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:41:31 PM EST
cuz 9mm ball sucks, so make it as "powerful" as you can
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:41:36 PM EST
I just know it's hot stuff.

I thought a handgun barrel was too short to do anything with a FMJ round.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:42:00 PM EST
It's purpose is to increase the KE of the bullet... LoL.

Seriously. Even a 124gr projectile is small compared to a GI .45, so they load the pressure up to +P+ specs in order to get it moving as fast as possible. That's all.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:43:02 PM EST
Does that make it punch through a soldier's clothes or armor better?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:47:32 PM EST
More thrusts per squeeze.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:52:34 PM EST
I always heard NATO spec 9mm ball is loaded at top end so it is more suitable for use in carbines and subguns. It will function better with their more massive bolts.
Somebody please correct this if not so. I know AR15.commers can be bashful sometimes.....
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 12:54:42 PM EST
probably for better reliability in extreme weather conditions, especially arctic conditions.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:24:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
cuz 9mm ball sucks, so make it as "powerful" as you can



If it sucks so much, you should prove it by trying it on yourself.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:25:15 PM EST
Because +p+ is the original German WW1 loading, and pretty much all military and civilian handguns were made to fire it. What we normally have hehre in the US is downloaded.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:21:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Because +p+ is the original German WW1 loading, and pretty much all military and civilian handguns were made to fire it. What we normally have hehre in the US is downloaded.



the old WWI Mauser "Broom-handle" pistols that shot 9mm even had 1000 meter adjustable rear sights and detatchable stocks.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:31:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
Does that make it punch through a soldier's clothes or armor better?

CRC



It could be stopped by relatively weak armor (i.e. soft vest w/o trauma plates), but is much better for punching through LBE, magazines, and maybe even a flack jacket than .45; both because of its narrower shape and higher speed.


quote]Originally Posted By kyreb:
I always heard NATO spec 9mm ball is loaded at top end so it is more suitable for use in carbines and subguns. It will function better with their more massive bolts.
Somebody please correct this if not so. I know AR15.commers can be bashful sometimes.....

I'm not sure about this, because I heard that the reason MEU(SOC) Marines get .45s is partially because some of the early M9 slide failures came from people giving their pistols more powerful ammo that was intended for their MP5 subguns... But I'm sure someone who knows for sure will wander in, maybe before I'm done posting this.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:33:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
cuz 9mm ball sucks, so make it as "powerful" as you can



yup

9mm sucks
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:37:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Because +p+ is the original German WW1 loading, and pretty much all military and civilian handguns were made to fire it. What we normally have hehre in the US is downloaded.


This is true. The reason US commercial 9mm is lighter loaded was that after WWI, some Italian Glisenti pistols showed up here.This fired the 9mm Glisenti round, which is dimensionally identical to 9mm Parabellum, but significantly less powerful. The ammo makers started downloading 9mm ammo after there were several KB's of Glisenti pistols when used with 9mm Parabellum ammo.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:53:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
cuz 9mm ball sucks, so make it as "powerful" as you can



yup

9mm sucks



Why does it suck? A 9mm FMJ projectile will make a larger hole than that of a 30-06 or 7.62 FMJ. So if a 30-06 FMJ projectile was good enough to kill a German or a Japanese soldier, why not a 9mm FMJ?

This is an honest question.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:02:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheLastBoyScout:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Does that make it punch through a soldier's clothes or armor better?

CRC



It could be stopped by relatively weak armor (i.e. soft vest w/o trauma plates), but is much better for punching through LBE, magazines, and maybe even a flack jacket than .45; both because of its narrower shape and higher speed.



Partly the main reason the Soviets came up with their 5.45x18 pistol round (FN came up with the 5.7), to punch thru LBE & flak jackets. The Russians could have just went back to 7.62x25, which punches clean thru flak jackets & concealable body armor (better than hot 9x19 does). Shoots flatter also for longer range shots.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:15:30 PM EST
To clarify, we never used high pressure 9MM in those Beretta pistols. NATO spec ball, mostly WCC manufactured ammo is what we used almost exclusively. The Berettas failed because of quality control issues. Beretta tried playing games with the problem, so we got SIGs.
As was correctly stated, commercial 9MM ammo is heavily downloaded here in the US. True 9MM is close in power to .357 magnum ammo. To get that here you have to buy +P ammo. This is the reason that some euro pistols like Glocks and SIGs can short stroke if you limp wrist them when firing- US ammo barely cycles them under ideal conditions.
9MM ammo is as effective as other ball ammo in modern warfare, sometimes more so. Much better penetration than .45 on body armor, for one thing, and many countries issue armor today.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:48:57 PM EST
Reason #69784 to use a .45
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:20:24 PM EST
.45 blah is so much better blah blah.........

I like the .45's I've had, but at the end of the day I still have a P228 that I shoot the piss out of because the ammo is cheaper to practive with. And I am a much better shot with it than I have ever been with any of the 3 .45s I've owned (Ruger, Para, Sig) or the 2 .357's I've owned (SW). Its what you can hit with, bar none. If you aim for the eyes, body armor don't matter
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:32:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:41:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By second:

Why does it suck? A 9mm FMJ projectile will make a larger hole than that of a 30-06 or 7.62 FMJ. So if a 30-06 FMJ projectile was good enough to kill a German or a Japanese soldier, why not a 9mm FMJ?

This is an honest question.




Partly bullet mass, partly velocity.

9mm is running maybe 115 grains at 1000 fps.

30-06 is running about 180 grains about 3,000 fps. Bigger THUMP.

9mm ball IS crap ammo - good for target shooting not much else.

IMO 9mm hollow point can get the job done, but I'd want it to be the heavier bullet weights, maybe 147 grain.



Link Posted: 8/28/2004 6:11:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By second:

Why does it suck? A 9mm FMJ projectile will make a larger hole than that of a 30-06 or 7.62 FMJ. So if a 30-06 FMJ projectile was good enough to kill a German or a Japanese soldier, why not a 9mm FMJ?

This is an honest question.




Partly bullet mass, partly velocity.

9mm is running maybe 115 grains at 1000 fps.

30-06 is running about 180 grains about 3,000 fps. Bigger THUMP.

9mm ball IS crap ammo - good for target shooting not much else.

IMO 9mm hollow point can get the job done, but I'd want it to be the heavier bullet weights, maybe 147 grain.







Ding - Ding - Ding.

We have a winner.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 7:28:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By MiG-21:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Because +p+ is the original German WW1 loading, and pretty much all military and civilian handguns were made to fire it. What we normally have hehre in the US is downloaded.


This is true. The reason US commercial 9mm is lighter loaded was that after WWI, some Italian Glisenti pistols showed up here.This fired the 9mm Glisenti round, which is dimensionally identical to 9mm Parabellum, but significantly less powerful. The ammo makers started downloading 9mm ammo after there were several KB's of Glisenti pistols when used with 9mm Parabellum ammo.


Glisenti
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:20:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By MiG-21:

Originally Posted By MiG-21:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Because +p+ is the original German WW1 loading, and pretty much all military and civilian handguns were made to fire it. What we normally have hehre in the US is downloaded.


This is true. The reason US commercial 9mm is lighter loaded was that after WWI, some Italian Glisenti pistols showed up here.This fired the 9mm Glisenti round, which is dimensionally identical to 9mm Parabellum, but significantly less powerful. The ammo makers started downloading 9mm ammo after there were several KB's of Glisenti pistols when used with 9mm Parabellum ammo.


Glisenti
www.secondeguerre.net/Armes/glisenti1910.jpg



That has to be the ugliest damn thing I ever saw. I mean damn... just ugly.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 8:23:51 PM EST
Yes, it is extremely ugly.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 11:10:41 PM EST
Really can't blame the KB's on the weapon though. It was fired with a round it was never designed to handle.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 11:20:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By MiG-21:
Really can't blame the KB's on the weapon though. It was fired with a round it was never designed to handle.



You can blame it on the idiot that put the Parabellum (It means "for war" btw) in the Glisenti.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 11:28:29 PM EST
It is only loaded hot by the VERY moderate SAAMI standards. Most of the US +P(+) designated ammo is well within European CIP standards. Even 9mm NATO isn't above it.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 12:29:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cato:
It is only loaded hot by the VERY moderate SAAMI standards. Most of the US +P(+) designated ammo is well within European CIP standards. Even 9mm NATO isn't above it.



Okay.

So we download it significantly.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:12:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By second:

Why does it suck? A 9mm FMJ projectile will make a larger hole than that of a 30-06 or 7.62 FMJ. So if a 30-06 FMJ projectile was good enough to kill a German or a Japanese soldier, why not a 9mm FMJ?

This is an honest question.




Partly bullet mass, partly velocity.

9mm is running maybe 115 grains at 1000 fps.

30-06 is running about 180 grains about 3,000 fps. Bigger THUMP.





I understand that. 30-06 projo will definitely have higher KE than that of a 9mm, but I had the impression that the incapacitation potential of a round is governed by the permanent cavity it creates, not by the temporary cavity. Higher KE does not equate to larger permanent cavity, hence a 9mm bullet should create a larger hole than a 30-06 bullet. 7.62 X 39 also has more thump than a 9mm, but the wound profile created by its projectile is no more worse than that created by a .38 Special round nose.

Link Posted: 9/1/2004 10:43:26 PM EST
Mil-spec ball ammo is made to shoot in a variety of weapons, pistols, carbines and subguns it has to chamber, go bang and cycle the weapon for the next shot. It has to function wet, dirty, in freezing cold and desert heat it wont do that loaded at the bottom of the scale. Ball ammo will never be as effective as commerical defensive ammo but it manages to kill tens of thousands of people worldwide every year with no problem. It does that because it goes bang every time.
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 12:05:49 AM EST
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