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Posted: 10/1/2011 1:24:53 PM EST
Over in the SBR and Suppressor area, guys are talking about 4-5mon wait for approval. I know it's a gov. agency and so you have to work at turtles pace. But still...
It takes 15min to get approved over the phone in order to buy a weapon, why so long on the NFA toys? More in depth check, they that busy, or just slow at it.

I myself will being playing the waiting game here shortly... Can't wait
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:25:41 PM EST
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:26:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:28:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.



That would be my guess also. I think the number of people getting into class 3/nfa stuff is also growing pretty fast.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:29:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.


That and the massive increase in work load. I believe the number that they are seeing now is somewhere in the area of 30,000 dispositions per month. That's form 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, etc.

for so few people, that's an assload of work.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:29:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.



The ATF has 5000 employees and a budget of over a billion dollars.

I'm sure they could speed up the process a bit if they wanted to. I mean really, we live in a digital age. Information is transferred at near the speed of light. Most fingerprints are now digitized. There's absolutely no reason it should take more than a few days, a week at most.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:31:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.



The ATF has 5000 employees and a budget of over a billion dollars.

I'm sure they could speed up the process a bit if they wanted to. I mean really, we live in a digital age. Information is transferred at near the speed of light. Most fingerprints are now digitized. There's absolutely no reason it should take more than a few days, a week at most.


but that wouldn't discourage lawful gun ownership.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:32:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.



The ATF has 5000 employees and a budget of over a billion dollars.

I'm sure they could speed up the process a bit if they wanted to. I mean really, we live in a digital age. Information is transferred at near the speed of light. Most fingerprints are now digitized. There's absolutely no reason it should take more than a few days, a week at most.



I do agree, it could be a lot quicker.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:33:05 PM EST
Surprised no one else said this, but I think the real reason is:







THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT! The ATF would rather you NOT be able to have the gun you want, but the law requires that they approve you for it if you pass their checks. Since they can't stop you from getting these evil tools of destruction, they take their damn time and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:34:54 PM EST
They could speed things up just through the use of instant background checks and digital delivery of forms. But that would require progress. I guess the real solution is to just abolish the requirement to collect the tax and not bother them with having to actually do a job.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:45:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By gribble:
Surprised no one else said this, but I think the real reason is:







THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT! The ATF would rather you NOT be able to have the gun you want, but the law requires that they approve you for it if you pass their checks. Since they can't stop you from getting these evil tools of destruction, they take their damn time and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible.


this and they are not really making any money from it....
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:45:16 PM EST
When the examiners office was in the D.C. area it often took 9 months to a year.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:45:18 PM EST
They dont want you to have those items. They make the process a pain to discourage the sale.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:51:12 PM EST
As a few others have said, it isn't an issue with man power or work load.

The long wait is meant to annoy people, discourage people, and generally drag out the process because, well, since when does the government want people to own guns, especially the super evil class 3 stuff?

THAT is the reason for the long approval times, and nothing else.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:53:06 PM EST
They have 12 examiners for the whole country. That's why it's so slow.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:54:40 PM EST
Consider that, on average, an examiner spends less than 4 minutes per form that is processed. Also consider that time includes phone calls, bathroom breaks, refilling coffee cups, etc.

The months of delay is just waiting in line for your form's 4 minutes in front of the examiner.

It's an archaic paperwork-based data processing system that is working far beyond its capacity, and the volume just keeps increasing.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 1:56:39 PM EST
The actual time it takes to process a Form is minutes, the reason it takes months for the whole process is because of the volume.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:02:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 2:02:46 PM EST by Ponyboy]
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.


That and the massive increase in work load. I believe the number that they are seeing now is somewhere in the area of 30,000 dispositions per month. That's form 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, etc.

for so few people, that's an assload of work.



I don't think it's that many. Per the ATF they only processed 86,000 NFA applications for the entire year in 2009.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-processing-times.html

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:03:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 2:06:09 PM EST by Dragracer_Art]
It's all about control.

They control every aspect of the transaction, from the time it is mfg'd till it gets to the end user.

To put it in perspective, here's an example:

A silencer Mfg must submit form 2's for all items mfg'd. It's not a permission slip, only a notice of mfg. This takes about 2-3 weeks. (approx)

The silencer Mfg then submits a form 3, tax free transfer to a distributor. On average, this is a 4 week wait. (approx)
Once they have the approved form3, they can ship to the distributor...

The distributor then needs to submit a form 3, transferring it to me, the NFA dealer, tax free. This is another 4 week wait. (approx)
Once ATF approves that form3, he can then ship the suppressor to me.

When I finally have it in hand, I can start the form 4 paperwork for my customer... which in the case of an individual, will also require CLEO sign-off, two fingerprint cards and a citizenship form.
The customer mails the form4 and other stuff along with a $200 check to BATF and waits 4-6 months for permission to leave the store with his new suppressor.

Considering the sheer number of forms being sent to BATF on a daily basis... and the fact that there are approx only 10 people handling it... it's no wonder it takes forever to get through the system.

Quite frankly I'm amazed this paperwork gets through the govt system at all.

That doesn't even address the fact that fingerprint cards are not processed by BATF. Those are sent to the FBI for examination and from my understanding, is a another reason for the delay of individual's form 4's.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:06:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3GunStuffLLC:
The actual time it takes to process a Form is minutes, the reason it takes months for the whole process is because of the volume.

Or it is just government bureaucrats reminding you that they are in control of your life.

Kinda of like watching a TSA agent grope your 5 year old and you can't do a fucking thing about it if you want to get on that airplane.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:07:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By A_G:
As a few others have said, it isn't an issue with man power or work load.

The long wait is meant to annoy people, discourage people, and generally drag out the process because, well, since when does the government want people to own guns, especially the super evil class 3 stuff?

THAT is the reason for the long approval times, and nothing else.


To you and the others who offered the same argument, stop and use some logic.

If all we had to do to "beat the system" implemented by an intransigent ATF was wait to be approved, then the ATF would not be achieving your stated goal by moving slowly to approve applications, because ultimately we receive our evil devices anyway.

It's all about budget and manpower. And even though many fingerprints are digitized and files can be sent through the ethers at the speed of light, a real human must review the application. That means working through a real Inbox filled with a stack of real paper. That nice pretty blue stamp you get is not delivered to you via email.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:08:55 PM EST
Change your name to something that sounds like you run a cartel, then they will overnight it to you
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:09:57 PM EST
Who does the actual background checks.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:13:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.


That and the massive increase in work load. I believe the number that they are seeing now is somewhere in the area of 30,000 dispositions per month. That's form 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, etc.

for so few people, that's an assload of work.



I don't think it's that many. Per the ATF they only processed 86,000 NFA applications for the entire year in 2009.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-processing-times.html



86,000 forms divided by 10 examiners = 8,600 forms a year for each examiner...?

8,600 forms each examiner divided by 260 business days in a year(not counting holidays) = 33 forms a day...?



Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:16:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
They could speed things up just through the use of instant background checks and digital delivery of forms. But that would require progress. I guess the real solution is to just abolish the requirement to collect the tax and not bother them with having to actually do a job.

I think the problem is not progress, but the fact that if it was easy, convenient, and fast it would encourage people to own scary guns.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:21:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lexington:
Originally Posted By A_G:
As a few others have said, it isn't an issue with man power or work load.

The long wait is meant to annoy people, discourage people, and generally drag out the process because, well, since when does the government want people to own guns, especially the super evil class 3 stuff?

THAT is the reason for the long approval times, and nothing else.


To you and the others who offered the same argument, stop and use some logic.

If all we had to do to "beat the system" implemented by an intransigent ATF was wait to be approved, then the ATF would not be achieving your stated goal by moving slowly to approve applications, because ultimately we receive our evil devices anyway.

It's all about budget and manpower. And even though many fingerprints are digitized and files can be sent through the ethers at the speed of light, a real human must review the application. That means working through a real Inbox filled with a stack of real paper. That nice pretty blue stamp you get is not delivered to you via email.



That is still their fault and the reason that our government wastes billions and billions and billions of dollars every year. Do you think a private company would still function this way?

- There is absolutely no reason they can't modernize the system.

- There is absolutely no reason for me to keep sending them the same fingerprints over and over again because they already have them.

- There is absolutely no reason I should have to send multiple copies of fingerprints when I apply for two transfers at the same time with the paperwork in the same envelope so that the FBI has to run them twice.

- There is absolutely no reason that the entire application process couldn't be done online.

If they spent a little money to modernize then it would save even more money, time and manpower in the near future.

Your explanation doesn't address the issue it only provides excuses. If a private company operated like that it would be out of business.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:21:45 PM EST
I agree on the "trying to discourage you" part. It's just amazing on how fast a background check goes to buy a gun, but NFA item... Damn

Honestly.. Are they checking anything different compared to a call in?

It would be a dream the day you can go to a local shop, get your finger scanned and picture taken, employee calls you in , just like buying a firearm. You buy the NFA item and pay the stamp all at once. Then you walk out with new NFA toy...

To dream
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:23:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By strycnine:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.


That and the massive increase in work load. I believe the number that they are seeing now is somewhere in the area of 30,000 dispositions per month. That's form 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, etc.

for so few people, that's an assload of work.



I don't think it's that many. Per the ATF they only processed 86,000 NFA applications for the entire year in 2009.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-processing-times.html



86,000 forms divided by 10 examiners = 8,600 forms a year for each examiner...?

8,600 forms each examiner divided by 260 business days in a year(not counting holidays) = 33 forms a day...?





33 forms a day at 4 minutes a form = 2 hours 12 minutes

So that must mean they are on Facebook for the other 7 hours and 48 minutes.



Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:26:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By Scvette01:
I agree on the "trying to discourage you" part. It's just amazing on how fast a background check goes to buy a gun, but NFA item... Damn

Honestly.. Are they checking anything different compared to a call in?




Yes.

They send your fingerprints to the FBI for them to run to check for a federal record. They also check to make sure that the item being transferred is legal for you to own where you live and this should take a whole 15 seconds.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 2:31:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By strycnine:
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Hard_Rock:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.


That and the massive increase in work load. I believe the number that they are seeing now is somewhere in the area of 30,000 dispositions per month. That's form 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, etc.

for so few people, that's an assload of work.



I don't think it's that many. Per the ATF they only processed 86,000 NFA applications for the entire year in 2009.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-processing-times.html



86,000 forms divided by 10 examiners = 8,600 forms a year for each examiner...?

8,600 forms each examiner divided by 260 business days in a year(not counting holidays) = 33 forms a day...?





33 forms a day at 4 minutes a form = 2 hours 12 minutes

So that must mean they are on Facebook for the other 7 hours and 48 minutes.





Probably some truth to that last sentence
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:25:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Lexington:
Originally Posted By A_G:
As a few others have said, it isn't an issue with man power or work load.

The long wait is meant to annoy people, discourage people, and generally drag out the process because, well, since when does the government want people to own guns, especially the super evil class 3 stuff?

THAT is the reason for the long approval times, and nothing else.


To you and the others who offered the same argument, stop and use some logic.

If all we had to do to "beat the system" implemented by an intransigent ATF was wait to be approved, then the ATF would not be achieving your stated goal by moving slowly to approve applications, because ultimately we receive our evil devices anyway.

It's all about budget and manpower. And even though many fingerprints are digitized and files can be sent through the ethers at the speed of light, a real human must review the application. That means working through a real Inbox filled with a stack of real paper. That nice pretty blue stamp you get is not delivered to you via email.



That is still their fault and the reason that our government wastes billions and billions and billions of dollars every year. Do you think a private company would still function this way?

- There is absolutely no reason they can't modernize the system.

- There is absolutely no reason for me to keep sending them the same fingerprints over and over again because they already have them.

- There is absolutely no reason I should have to send multiple copies of fingerprints when I apply for two transfers at the same time with the paperwork in the same envelope so that the FBI has to run them twice.

- There is absolutely no reason that the entire application process couldn't be done online.

If they spent a little money to modernize then it would save even more money, time and manpower in the near future.

Your explanation doesn't address the issue it only provides excuses. If a private company operated like that it would be out of business.


This! I can see a Wait time for your first one, but once you are in the system, it should be a phone call approval.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:28:17 PM EST
I'm a government worker and I spend most of may day fucking around.
That should answer your question.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:29:56 PM EST
My Form4 for my AOW shotgun took 3.5 months. Really expected it to take longer.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:30:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.



The ATF has 5000 employees and a budget of over a billion dollars.

I'm sure they could speed up the process a bit if they wanted to. I mean really, we live in a digital age. Information is transferred at near the speed of light. Most fingerprints are now digitized. There's absolutely no reason it should take more than a few days, a week at most.



+1

We should be able to submit these forms online.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:31:41 PM EST
My mac and can was approved in two weeks....

But it took 4 months to get it back to me.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:38:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By gribble:
Surprised no one else said this, but I think the real reason is:







THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE IT! The ATF would rather you NOT be able to have the gun you want, but the law requires that they approve you for it if you pass their checks. Since they can't stop you from getting these evil tools of destruction, they take their damn time and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible.


this is what i was going to post. IN 1934 $200 tax stamp made ownership almost impossible for all but the well off.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:51:24 PM EST
So I buy one suppressor and have to go through the hoops. Then if I buy a 2nd can 8 months later , I gotta go through the whole process again... Fuckin Gay!!!!

Even if I do 2 cans at once or 1 can and a SBR, 2 sets of forms and fingerprints have to be sent in....

What's a waste of everything. Yea I bitch, but I still will go through with it
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:52:54 PM EST
90% backlog. It spends most of the time working its way up the stack.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:56:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Scvette01:
So I buy one suppressor and have to go through the hoops. Then if I buy a 2nd can 8 months later , I gotta go through the whole process again... Fuckin Gay!!!!

Even if I do 2 cans at once or 1 can and a SBR, 2 sets of forms and fingerprints have to be sent in....

What's a waste of everything. Yea I bitch, but I still will go through with it


If you do multiple transfers in one envelope, two fingerprint cards and one citizenship form will suffice.

I have customers that routinely do this, and it's never been a problem.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:57:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By ruger556boy:
Not engouh staff. That is pretty much it.



The ATF has 5000 employees and a budget of over a billion dollars.

I'm sure they could speed up the process a bit if they wanted to. I mean really, we live in a digital age. Information is transferred at near the speed of light. Most fingerprints are now digitized. There's absolutely no reason it should take more than a few days, a week at most.


You don't understand government. This particular program is what is called a "Fee-based program". It isn't legal to divert other "appropriated" funds into it. It has to operate on the fees that it charges. A substantial portion of those fees are used as part of that process. For example - they have to pay other agencies for record checks (fingerprint etc.).

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 3:58:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By H-barCarbine:
They have 12 examiners for the whole country. That's why it's so slow.


this.

I have been buying class 3 stuff for only 4 years. and in that time the ATF has added people to the process, my shortest time was 3 years ago when a suppressor took 3 months.

since then NFA interest has exploded. that why the long wait times.

and not every ATF agent is trained in the tedious, mundane, ultra boring process of processing what amounts to TPS forms. mmmmmk ?
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:02:39 PM EST
Call and ask them, but you'll have to wait until they get back from their 915am coffee break. Maybe you'll be the one call they take before they go to lunch, then they have afternoon trainning, then aprove one form and then it's afternoon coffee then it's time to head home at 330pm
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:05:21 PM EST
My last F3 went through in 2 weeks.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:07:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By Boecker351:


this is what i was going to post. IN 1934 $200 tax stamp made ownership almost impossible for all but the well off.


That $200 in 1934 would be $3320 today... That would change the equation some...
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:09:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:23:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 4:24:10 PM EST by PinePig]
Originally Posted By Scvette01:
I agree on the "trying to discourage you" part. It's just amazing on how fast a background check goes to buy a gun, but NFA item... Damn

Honestly.. Are they checking anything different compared to a call in?

It would be a dream the day you can go to a local shop, get your finger scanned and picture taken, employee calls you in , just like buying a firearm. You buy the NFA item and pay the stamp all at once. Then you walk out with new NFA toy...

To dream


Allow me to fix your dream, it's sad we just accept the blatant unconstitutionality of the whole thing, so here goes...

Walk into shop, point at cool newly designed and produced short barreled fully automatic and silenced bullet hose, check it out and leave somewhere between 500-1000 dollars on the counter and walk out with new toy.

My dream is much better than yours.

Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:42:32 PM EST
Put the money at the end of the process that will increase the speed.

The Tax Money ($5, or $200) goes into escrow, then on approval of the form the money moves to from escrow to ATFE's account.

-or-

Pass a law that reads "Acceptance of a Tax or Fee is prima facia evidence of approval of the act for which the Tax or Fee was collected".

Now where the heck did I put my flame retarded suit.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 4:46:35 PM EST
Uhm, they don't want you to think the trouble is worth it.

They could approve the thing immediately if they wanted, but they don't WANT to. Nothing says that they must, so they drag shit out.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:06:59 PM EST
I've had all mine back in less then 4 months, most just over 3 -3.5 months. Even the last one with in the last year.

But there is a big backlog, NFA items are gaining in popularity.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:08:54 PM EST
Because they are busy selling guns to Drug Dealers in Mexico
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 5:09:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2011 5:10:23 PM EST by Cole2534]
I'd not be surprised if it were that slow by design.

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