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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/10/2006 2:02:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 2:02:19 AM EDT by rogue007]
Ever since the gas has gone up, I talk to alot of people that work for me or work with me. One of my
favorite people to talk to is an old retired marine vietnam vet, he will get you guys rolling, he's a hoot.
But he was talking to me this morning asking why it now costs more to put ethanol in gas, than it did
years ago to keep it cheap. He ask me........."Why is it that they charge more for putting ethanol in your gas
than years ago they use to put it in to keep it cheap?"




Ethanol is a clean-burning, high-octane fuel that is produced from renewable sources. At its most basic, ethanol is grain alcohol, produced from crops such as corn. Because it is domestically produced, ethanol helps reduce America's dependence upon foreign sources of energy.

Pure, 100% ethanol is not generally used as a motor fuel; instead, a percentage of ethanol is combined with unleaded gasoline. This is beneficial because the ethanol:

* decreases the fuel's cost
* increases the fuel's octane rating
* decreases gasoline's harmful emissions

Any amount of ethanol can be combined with gasoline, but the most common blends are:

E10 - 10% ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline

E10 is approved for use in any make or model of vehicle sold in the U.S. Many automakers recommend its use because of its high performance, clean-burning characteristics. In 2004, about one-third of America's gasoline was blended with ethanol, most in this 10% variety.

E85 - 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline

E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs). There are currently more than 4 million FFVs on America's roads today, and automakers are rolling out more each year. In conjunction with more flexible fuel vehicles, more E85 pumps are being installed across the country. When E85 is not avaialble, these FFVs can operate on straight gasoline or any ethanol blend up to 85%.

It is important to note that it does not take a special vehicle to run on "ethanol". All vehicles can use E10 with no modifications to the engine. E85 is for use in a flexible fuel vehicle, so some people confuse "ethanol" with the blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.




Just wondering myself.............
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 2:05:47 AM EDT
if that cant rape you one way, I guess they will find another way....
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 2:07:10 AM EDT
I do not ever recall it being cheaper,but it used to be the same price.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 2:07:11 AM EDT
Doesn't the government require that ethanol be added to all gasoline at the pump?

If so then the question is answered. Greed.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 2:11:27 AM EDT
Same reason they used to charge you more for Un-leaded gasoline over Regular (leaded) gas.

Because they can.

Mike

ps - Note: when gasoline comes out the seperator it is "un-leaded" so if effort or additional processing were commensurate with cost then "regular" should have been more expensive as it had to have the "lead" added to it. Under this premise, of the least cost to produce the fuel product being the cheapest at the pump, diesel should be the least inexpensive per gallon, but it ain't is it....

Link Posted: 4/10/2006 2:20:31 AM EDT
Right now there is a shortage of ethanol which is driving the price up.

www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-03-30-ethanol-gas-prices_x.htm
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 2:23:59 AM EDT
Cars run on money, it's that simple.

Someone should make a car that really runs off dollar bills.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:27:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By copenhagen:
Right now there is a shortage of ethanol which is driving the price up.

www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-03-30-ethanol-gas-prices_x.htm



Exactly. This year they have to switch from MTBE additive (which causes cancer and persists in groundwater) to ethanol as an additive to reduce, I believe, smog. And because of that there is a shortage of ethanol. I think the government should loosen the restrictions for this summer.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:30:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By copenhagen:
Right now there is a shortage of ethanol which is driving the price up.

www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-03-30-ethanol-gas-prices_x.htm



Exactly. This year they have to switch from MTBE additive (which causes cancer and persists in groundwater) to ethanol as an additive to reduce, I believe, smog. And because of that there is a shortage of ethanol. I think the government should loosen the restrictions for this summer.

GunLvr



I'll do my part by not buying ethenol. It kills the mileage I get from my truck.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:40:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Same reason they used to charge you more for Un-leaded gasoline over Regular (leaded) gas.

Because they can.

Mike

ps - Note: when gasoline comes out the seperator it is "un-leaded" so if effort or additional processing were commensurate with cost then "regular" should have been more expensive as it had to have the "lead" added to it. Under this premise, of the least cost to produce the fuel product being the cheapest at the pump, diesel should be the least inexpensive per gallon, but it ain't is it....



Lead, specifically tetryethyl lead, was added to CHEAP gasoline to increase the octane rating. To get the same octane rating without lead requires the use of special, expensive components, most of which are alkylates but also certain crude oils produce higher octane rated gasolines.

Diesel is another story because of the rapidly approaching phase-out of even low sulfur diesel. Next year, all road diesel will be 15 ppm sulfur, it is currently 50. All of that additional processing to lower the sulfur costs money. And many refineries have to add equipment for desulfurization.

With ethanol, we have a problem in the lower Reid vapor pressure required by the US EPA for summer months. Adding ethanol will cause the gasoline to violate the maximum RVP. But since MTBE is being phased out, ethanol is one of the few allowed oxygenates..again, adding oxygen is a mandate from the US EPA. Neither the RVP cap nor the oxygenate content make a damn difference in most of the cars on the road today because of evaporative emissions controls and feedback electronic fuel injection with oxygen sensors.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:46:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By copenhagen:
Right now there is a shortage of ethanol which is driving the price up.

www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-03-30-ethanol-gas-prices_x.htm



Exactly. This year they have to switch from MTBE additive (which causes cancer and persists in groundwater) to ethanol as an additive to reduce, I believe, smog. And because of that there is a shortage of ethanol. I think the government should loosen the restrictions for this summer.

GunLvr



Ethanol, MTBE, TAME and other blending stocks are called oxygenates. Their addition is based on a decades-old test which used an engine, NOT an automotive engine, that had points-type ignition, a carburator and NO catalyst. In this archaic engine, adding oxygenates reduces cold-cycle pollution. BFD, all cars made since 1996 have had tight controlls on these emissions through the use of catalyst monitoring (oxygen sensors before and after the converter).

Adding oxygenates DOES NOT DECREASE EMISSIONS.

With ethanol as the sole oxygenate, fewer gallons of gasoline can be produced from a barrel of crude because only the lowest vapor pressure cut can be used. Ethanol increases the vapor pressure of the blend yet in many areas, high levels of oxygenate are required so even less gasoline can be produced form each barrel.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 7:52:08 AM EDT
The only way ethanol can be even nearly as cheap as gasoline is when the government is paying for it (with your tax dollars).
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:16:41 AM EDT
What ever happened to the propane/NG conversions? They seemed to be real popular in the late '70s-early '80s...
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:23:44 AM EDT


Hooray, not only do you get less horsepower and less mileage running ethanol blends, but now you can pay the same or more for it as real gas!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:33:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
What ever happened to the propane/NG conversions? They seemed to be real popular in the late '70s-early '80s...



OBDI killed it. To inspect a light vehicle for use on the road, the "check engine light" must be off. This is law in all sttes that require an annual safety inspection.

It is nigh impossible to run modern fuel injected cars on propane, given its high pressure (130+ PSI) since most injectors run at 90 PSI maximum.

Furthermore, the increase in the cost of NG has made such conversions impractical. And since propane can be diluted to be a NG substitute, the price of propane tracks NG.

There ARE dual fuel diesel trucks (Sterling) that use mostly NG, injecting a small quantity of diesel to facilitate the burn. A small amount of NG is mixed with the air, usually under 3%. This mixture cannot burn because it is far too lean but once the diesel is injected, the NG burns and adds considerable heat. The NG percentage is varied along with the diesel but in most cases, the energy is about 90% from NG. This works well because the very high compression gets most from NG, owing to its low specific energy and requirement for high pressure to store considerable volumes of NG.

You can do the same with propane. You can get unreal power from a diesel engine using propane injection. I know of a 1.9 liter (116 cubic inch) VW tdi that got over 250 Hp using propane injection. And that was at a sedate 4000 RPM. That is like a 400 cubic inch V8 gasoline engine!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 8:38:38 AM EDT
Casey's gas stations used to have 10% ethanol blends for like $.02-.05 less a gallon than regular unleaded 87oct.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 10:40:25 AM EDT
It takes money to make ethanol. You don't just stick a corn cob in a barrel of gasoline and call it a day.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 10:42:40 AM EDT
GWB signed a mandate that requires a certain percentage of gas sold in the us contain ethanol. Now because of the requirement, demand is up and supply hasn't met it. Voila, prices rise.

Thanks again, GWB and the ethanol lobby!
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 10:58:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2006 10:58:49 AM EDT by jimtash9]

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
What ever happened to the propane/NG conversions? They seemed to be real popular in the late '70s-early '80s...



We actually have a public CNG station here in my city that was funded by Honda. I haven't seen any CNG cars but apparently the city is looking to buy buses that run on it. The buses we currently have run on kerosene btw.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:02:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:
It takes money to make ethanol. You don't just stick a corn cob in a barrel of gasoline and call it a day.



Ohh shiiiit....
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:02:48 AM EDT
NO BLOOD for ETHANOL.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:04:30 AM EDT
I am not calling dupe here, I have posted a few things here and some answers:

Link
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 11:09:26 AM EDT
So are we saying that California is doing it to all of us, with the new pollution rules they dream up?
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:14:58 PM EDT
Our whole economy is partially supported on a false floor, and it can't support the weight forever.

There is no "shortage" of biofuels (and ethanol). It's simply not being produced because it costs too damn much now that oil costs are so high. Let me explain:

Most of these "biofuels" are made from organic materials (ie, mainly corn and soy), yes, but (and this is a big "but") how do you think those organic sources are produced? Mainly with petrolium-based fertilizers and petrolium-powered farming impliments. It takes something like 1.3 units in weight of petrolium to produce 1 unit of grain (something like that: it's a ratio greater than 1:1, but I forget specifics).

So, when "gas with ethanol" costs more than gas without, it's because - despite the government subsidies for biofuel industries - the cost of petrolium is making the production (and thus market) costs of ethanol and other biofuels more expensive.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:17:47 PM EDT
<---- Glad to drive a DIESEL VW.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 12:42:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:
GWB signed a mandate that requires a certain percentage of gas sold in the us contain ethanol. Now because of the requirement, demand is up and supply hasn't met it. Voila, prices rise.

Thanks again, GWB and the ethanol lobby!


No, he didn't. Show the proof. Ethanol had been used in WINTER blends in areas that were in compliance with VOC emissions. But it cannot be used in most areas during the summer blend season because of vapor pressure limits.

Areas that use it for oxygen content must blend it with very low vapor pressure blending stock and even then, E85 cannot get to the required low vapor pressure.

President Bush signed an EO AFTER Katrina that suspended the local oxygenate content for non-attainment areas.
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