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Posted: 8/22/2005 6:29:22 PM EDT
I had a friend who served in a Golani (?sp.) unit and any time I went shooting with him he did the same thing. I've lost touch and wasn't into guns as much back then and never got to ask him.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:31:02 PM EDT
To resist the urge.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:31:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:31:53 PM EDT by Furner]
gun safety
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:33:51 PM EDT
Their doctrine (according to my Israeli friends) is, don't trust or use a safety, when needed, chamber and fire.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:33:56 PM EDT
Justa 'casue you were in ANY nations military doesn't make you savvy.



I put more rounds downrange between my three courses than in 7.5 in the Army.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:34:29 PM EDT


What I heard was that when Isreal was a young poor country, they got pistols from whatever source they could. There was a mis-matched collection of pistols, some single action, some double action, safeties in various locations and modes of operation. It was easier to teach one method which worked with all pistols, chamber empty, safety off. To fire the same motion was required no matter what you had, rack the slide and pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:36:47 PM EDT
its for the children.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:37:10 PM EDT
Stoopid.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:38:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:41:16 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Their doctrine (according to my Israeli friends) is, don't trust or use a safety, when needed, chamber and fire.



What is taught in the U.S. military?

ETA: I know that most (?all) 'private' courses teach to have the gun loaded/round in the chamber and safety on for those guns that have an external safety (as opposed to Sigs, Glocks, etc).
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:39:23 PM EDT
I heard an Israeli post here that they lose their right to carry a gun if they have an ND, so they always carry chamber empty. Just what I heard.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:40:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:42:02 PM EDT by Lapp_Dance]

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Their doctrine (according to my Israeli friends) is, don't trust or use a safety, when needed, chamber and fire.



What is taught in the U.S. military?



USAF here, we carry M9's chambered and safety off, just pull (from holster) and shoot. M16's are carried loaded, not chambered, safety on; charge, select fire, and shoot. This is how 82d SFS states we will use our firearms.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:41:38 PM EDT
Added safety. Can't always rely on a firearm's safety.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:44:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Furner:
gun safety




This is my safety


I love that line
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:44:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:45:54 PM EDT by MachinegunManiac]

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Their doctrine (according to my Israeli friends) is, don't trust or use a safety, when needed, chamber and fire.



What is taught in the U.S. military?


With rifles it depends on where you are. If in a potentially hostile area you have to be ready to go. As for pistols, I don't know. In my unit they won't let anyone below SFC have them.


But in the reserves that doesn't matter because we medics get thrown into random units that may require you to use them. But the Army finds it cheaper not to train us with them.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:45:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 6:46:29 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By Schulze:
I heard an Israeli post here that they lose their right to carry a gun if they have an ND, so they always carry chamber empty. Just what I heard.



No flame whatsoever, but many people in the U.S. would lose their CCW if they had a ND at the supermarket. ETA: But most people still (appropriately) carry with one in the pipe.

FWIW, my friend used to carry his Colt 1911 with a magazine inserted and said he would draw and rack the slide with the rear sight, like they would teach here if you had no use of your injured left hand to charge during a magazine change.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:45:49 PM EDT
They are trained to draw, rack the slide, aim and fire in one motion
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:47:35 PM EDT
+1 on a big temptation to alleviate Israel from future terrorists.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:48:23 PM EDT
The 'Israeli Draw' does give you a brief bit of time should your weapon be taken away from you. And given how crowded it is over there, and the frequent need for 'crowd control', it does make sense to not be hot all the time.

Besides, ever see how fast a well-trained person can draw/cycle the slide/fire?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:51:23 PM EDT
I guess what I find odd is that often people will look to how the Israelis do things since they always seem to be in the shit.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:55:06 PM EDT
Just off the top of my head, when you're running around buttstroking Palestinians, it would make it more difficult for them to grab the weapon, flip the selector and fire it. It keeps the first shot from getting fired.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:07:59 PM EDT
A guy in Isreal posted at glocktalk that an ND there is grounds for you to lose all right to firearm ownership.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:07:59 PM EDT
For the same reason Position Sul was invented. To save idiots from experiencing Natural Selection.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:16:53 PM EDT
I read in a gun mag many years ago, that they were originally taught by a former US military NCO back in the late 60s, early 70s and that is how he trained them. Everytime he went to fire a string, he would have a full mag, empty chamber and he would rack after he drew and would align his sights and fire. He had a cold range the whole time he was training them. I can't remember his name, but it was in the article. I'll look through the mags and see if I can find it. He would clear his gun after every string. Crazy by todays standards.

From what I understand, the Isrealis felt it provided an edge in gun safety. I doubt Mossad carried that way, I could be wrong. I tried it for a short time - like less than a day, back when I first started packing.

If I remember the article title was something like, "Isreali carry, or getting yourself shot with style" or something like that. It is not reccomended by any credible shooting school/firearms trainer. It takes at least 2 seconds more to get your gun in the fight - time I'd rather spend on a follow up 2nd or 3rd shot.

On another note, a good friend of mine is working as a protective detail officer for the county in Phx, AZ. He always has a hot weapon on him, unless mandated on a range. He was gearing up in the locker room and charged his G22 and topped it off. One of his detail members asked if he always carried a round chambered, to which he replied with something like "you'd be stupid not too" or "Are you crazy that you'd think I wouldn't? Don't you?" The guy made like he always did and was wondering, then walked off. My buddy heard the distinct rack of a slide as the guy was leaving the room.... <shakes head>

Nothing more useless than an unloaded firearm. Makes it a very poor club.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:10:08 PM EDT
As said by the others above - ITS A SAFETY THING.

Israel is a small crowded place. Negligent discharges (NDs) can prove fatal in a public area. Given the number of people that carry their firearms in public, the PROBABILITY of a ND is increased proportionately.

hence the empty chamber.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:21:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
As said by the others above - ITS A SAFETY THING.

Israel is a small crowded place. Negligent discharges (NDs) can prove fatal in a public area. Given the number of people that carry their firearms in public, the PROBABILITY of a ND is increased proportionately.

hence the empty chamber.




Maybe they need to have a national standard for training or something. Lots of people carry in US cities without a high rate of public NDs.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:26:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
As said by the others above - ITS A SAFETY THING.

Israel is a small crowded place. Negligent discharges (NDs) can prove fatal in a public area. Given the number of people that carry their firearms in public, the PROBABILITY of a ND is increased proportionately.

hence the empty chamber.




Maybe they need to have a national standard for training or something. Lots of people carry in US cities without a high rate of public NDs.



Personally I am surprised there aren't more ND's considering how many people are carrying these days.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:35:51 PM EDT
Perhaps because you gotta be finger fucking the gun to make it fire, and civilians in public tend not to touch their carry weapons. From anecdotal evidence it would seem to me that cops have a higher ND rate, and for two reasons. Firstly because they carry their weapons openly and with no concern for it being seen, and secondly because while an armed citizen usually is a shooting enthusiast, many cops consider firearms just another tool, and do not achieve the same level of proficiency. Not a dig on cops, just a thought.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:38:19 PM EDT
To keep the Arabs guessing
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:03:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 9:05:50 PM EDT by eye_spy]
EDITED OUT: Ooops! Sorry! double Tap! ]
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:29:13 PM EDT
I carried cold chamber for a couple of months when I first got my CHL. It was a kind of proof of principle to debug any possible safety issues my carry style and gear may have had.

Tons of years later, I think there is no other way to carry a standard rig than one in the pipe. If you don't, you require 2 hands or a non-standard slide rack to get the gun into play. That is no bueno. Many times in close situations, you will need that weak hand. In some instances, like tight spaces, you won't have the elbow room to easily rack a slide.

I think the best arguement for the Israeli system is to be proficient with a variety of pistols with different controls. For me though, I train up with most of the common guns used in this country, and I train a lot with the Glock.

This actually brings us to another important point. The regular discipline of making sure there is a round in the chamber before you go out carrying (if that's how you carry...). Nothing can be worse than beating the perp to the draw, then hearing a soft click in stead of a loud bang.

Lots of good points in this thread. For me, and in most modern training systems, you learn safety and then you carry hot. Like he said a few posts back, "This is my safety, sir".

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:34:51 PM EDT
"The Israeli Shooting Techniques, or How To Get Yourself Shot To Pieces In Style" By Jim Shults.
SOF, June 2003.

I will hit the highlights from the article, since I have the hard copy and can't find it on the web.

I won't type the whole thing, go get the back issue from a used magazine shop - a couple of bucks at best.

The article indicates that the Mossad turned to the US for assistance in shooting skills courses to teach their military and agents in techniques and tactics.

Quote:

History of the Israeli Method.

"In the early 60's the Mossad needed help in assasination techniques and tactics. Aside from the obvious mission goals they were also concerned about AD's and of hitting the wrong person. This, coupled with the less sophisticated firearms at that time, created a requirement for total safety to potential bystanders. So where did the Mossad go for help? To the US, of course. With American cooperation, they were hooked up with a recently retired USMC Master Sergeant to instruct them. A decent choice, but he only knew military shooting methods. So he mixed a few of his ideas in with his years of military training to set up a lesson plan for the Israelis. At the time, and for years to come, the Israeli SpecOps people used the tiny, easy to operate Beretta .22 caliber pistol."

"The former Marine taught the same basic shooting stance the FBI was using at the time. He taught them to carry the pistol with the chamber empty, like the military taught him. He taught that when the target was in view the pistol was drawn, the slide was then racked using the thumb and forefinger. Once the shooting started, the (.22 short-cal pistol) was to be emptied into the bad guy's head at very close range. This basic assassination technique was then combined into a "standard" self-defense firearm program using the then-FBI basics."

"In summary, the "Israeli method" uses a 30-years-out-of-date FBI stance and is the culmination of military-pistol-manipulation taught by a Marine Master Sergeant early in the 1960's!" Unquote.

All from the article. There you go.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:39:47 PM EDT
At least we're all in agreement.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:41:50 PM EDT
Well if Soldier of Fortune doesn't like it, then obviously the Israelis are in the wrong.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:42:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobP:

What I heard was that when Isreal was a young poor country, they got pistols from whatever source they could. There was a mis-matched collection of pistols, some single action, some double action, safeties in various locations and modes of operation. It was easier to teach one method which worked with all pistols, chamber empty, safety off. To fire the same motion was required no matter what you had, rack the slide and pull the trigger.




That is exactly what I do.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:50:48 PM EDT
Why do you carry your gun Condition 3?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:32:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:

If I remember the article title was something like, "Isreali carry, or getting yourself shot with style" or something like that. It is not reccomended by any credible shooting school/firearms trainer. It takes at least 2 seconds more to get your gun in the fight - time I'd rather spend on a follow up 2nd or 3rd shot.





An extra 2 seconds? You've never actually tried it, have you? Try this test. Holster a charged pistol, have someone with a stopwatch time you. From "Go", draw, aim, fire. Now do the same thing with an unchambered loaded pistol, safety off. Draw, rack, aim, fire. You ought to be racking the slide as soon as you draw, grab the slide with your weak hand, and push the frame forward into the firing position with your strong hand. If it takes you more than an extra quarter to half second to charge your gun, you're doing something wrong.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:50:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 4:53:00 AM EDT by rtech]

Originally Posted By npd233:


An extra 2 seconds? You've never actually tried it, have you? Try this test. Holster a charged pistol, have someone with a stopwatch time you. From "Go", draw, aim, fire. Now do the same thing with an unchambered loaded pistol, safety off. Draw, rack, aim, fire. You ought to be racking the slide as soon as you draw, grab the slide with your weak hand, and push the frame forward into the firing position with your strong hand. If it takes you more than an extra quarter to half second to charge your gun, you're doing something wrong.



Yes, I've tried this style of carry and it sucks. It may not be 2 seconds - it depends on if you actually grab the slide and rack it. If you slip, it'll be a little longer than that and it'll feel like 5 minutes or so. Just wait until you go to grab the slide, miss and catch your cuticle on the sight and rip it back. That's nice to do.

There is simply no merit to this style of carry in today's society. No modern firearms instructor today would teach it. It's a reciepe for getting your ass shot because you were not prepared to fight with your firearm, as it was designed. Why would you put yourself at a disadvantage from the start?

As a wise man once said, "You need to be on target, the firstest with the mostest." Attempting that with an uncharged firearm is simply crazy. I would rather have that extra time to put more lead on the target.

I consider myself to be pretty good with my sidearm. I used to carry an HK USP45 and now I carry my Sig P220 every day. I carried a 1911 for years and as recently as last year. I also compete in IDPA whenever I can. Heck, I was doing drills with my buddy who was a Sheriff's deputy a few years back. I had a contest against him and proved that I could reload my Model 29 .44 mag faster than he could reload his Sig P228 from slide lock. And I did. I was almost a second faster by the stopwatch. And that Sig 228 used to be mine before I sold it to him.

I train whenever I can. I dry fire all the time. I shoot from the floor. I draw while laying on my back. I shoot from my back, arms over my head and shoot targets that would be upside down to me. I practice weak hand and weak handed reloads as well. If you ever get shot in your strong arm, you'll wish you had practiced that.

Thanks, but I'll keep a round up the snout and be ready to go. Besides, I'd rather have both hands on my gun, given the choice. It's a more secure firing platform. You will be somewhat off balance with the Israeli method, and be one handed as well. I don't see the attraction.

Let me ask you, would you carry a revolver unloaded and charge it up before a fight? What would be the difference?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:01:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:
There is simply no merit to this style of carry in today's society.



Todays society in Ohio, perhaps. In crowded Israel with large numbers of hostiles walking around (but not neccesarily overtly hostile), it makes perfect sense. Something like 30% of cops killed by handguns in this country are killed by their own. It's not a minor problem, andf the unique situation in Israel could very well compound the problem.

It would be nice to see stats on who was saved by firing a few second earlier vs. how many were killed by their own firearms. I doubt said stats exist, but...

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:10:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Well if Soldier of Fortune doesn't like it, then obviously the Israelis are in the wrong.



The man simply wanted to know where it started from and there is the information.

Would it be more credible if it came from VPC or the Brady Bunch - maybe "Better Homes and Gardens" would be a better publication periodical?

This author is not a regular contributer to SOF.

I support Col. Robert K. Brown because he still supports our troops. I admit the annual SOF convention has become some type of "mall ninja" get-together, but not everything that is published in the magazine is poison. I've been reading the mag since 1977 or so. Years before I joined the Army and there is still some good information in it from time to time. Besides, SOF sends boxes of the magazines to the troops in both theaters of operation. I bet it gets real boring over there in your down time.

Oh, and the Israelis are in the wrong with this firearms technique. But, whatever works for you.

We all know that America rules when it comes to hand held firearms.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:13:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Schulze:
I heard an Israeli post here that they lose their right to carry a gun if they have an ND, so they always carry chamber empty. Just what I heard.



I always carry with a chamber empty. I may not lose my right to carry if I have a ND, I may lose something much more important than that.

I only chamber a round when I am about to fire that round...PERIOD. And yes I practice like that.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:16:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 5:20:07 AM EDT by ocuppier]
We carry our weapons a few different ways- depending on the situation that you are in.

When you are going home for the weekend, you carry with the magazine out of the gun- but if you live in the territories, then you are supposed to carry with the magazine in.

When you are doing guard duty in the terittories you carry the weapon loaded but no round in the chamber- the thinking is that on work like that oyu can tell when oyu will need to be shooting, and you will have that 1 second to chamber- this has helped prevent many accidental discharges when returning to base.

When you go out on an operation, before boarding the helicopters or vehichles you chamber a round.

more elite units are taught "c" which is when you cock, pull trigger, and hten load- safety is off, but the hammer is not cocked- you walk with one hand on the charging handle so you just pull and start shooting- this is mainly used when doing dignitary protection.

we have some of the strictest gun safety rules in the world- our range safety is by far the strictest that i have seen anywhere- when we worked out with Force Recon they were surprised by our range safety officer when he freaked out on them.


oh and that stuff about our infantry sucking, and using outdated pistol techniques- dont just post stupid shit that enters your heads- i was in excersises with Marines FOrce Recon, Rangers, and regular Marine divisions- we kicked the snot out of them each time.
if our pistol techniques suck so much then why is Adam always full of americans learning at our counter terror achool- why is there a whole american base in sirkin?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:17:27 AM EDT
Sounds like a great way to add user-induced malfunctions to your weapon.

Pistol - draw, rack slide, oops! My hand slipped off. Let me try again. Hey, bad guy, give me a second! Stop shooting! Hey, ouch! That hurts. Oof! Again with the bullets? ...cold, dark...

Rifle - bring up weapon, pull trigger. Oops, no round. Pull charging handle. Magazine is not seated because you inserted it with the bolt closed. Tap magazine, pull charging handle. Hold on bad guys, I didn't get to cover because I was clearing a malfunction! Oof! A 7.62 to the chest, that's gonna leave a mark.

G
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:18:43 AM EDT
Chamber and fire.

Makes sense to me.

Max
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:37:06 AM EDT
Chocolate and vanilla
What ever dims your lightbulb.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:57:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By rtech:
There is simply no merit to this style of carry in today's society.





It would be nice to see stats on who was saved by firing a few second earlier vs. how many were killed by their own firearms. I doubt said stats exist, but...




As stated before, most cops don't train with thier firearms after leaving the academy and they only hit the range if forced. Most cops are simply not proficient with thier firearms, unless they are "gun nuts" and into guns.

Are you really going to tell me that a cop going against a banger, cop draws faster, gets on target faster, gets a CNS strike and stops his attacker before being hit by enemy fire, would not be saved?

Getting on target faster, with accurate fire will stop the fight - unless said attacker has armor, and there is a procedure for that. A CNS hit will usually stop a fight right then.

I know of many times when cops who returned more accurate fire faster to their aggressor, stopped the fight and lived to fight another day.

If the Israeli style of carry were so good and safe, why doesn't American Law Enforcement adopt this method? There are many, many documented cases of cops having AD's or ND's all the time. I know of a few personally and could dig up video documentation as well. It would seem that they need it most.

I would think that if you had a place seething with bad guys, especially bad guys who have bombs strapped to themselves, and the only way you could stop them would be a lead injection to the mellon before they hit the "dead man switch", that you would want a firearm to be put into action as quick as possible, to avoid an suicide bomber before he blew himself up.

It doesn't make sense and a good, solid, modern training program would prevent ND's and AD's, no matter who or how many carried.

If you feel comfortable with this style of carry, go for it and practice lots. Maybe it works for you. It doesn't work for me and probably a majority of others who carry a firearm in the US every day.

FWIW, I have used my sidearm a few times in my life to protect my life. Drawing, racking a round and pushing it out to the target might have given them more time to draw and return fire on me. Or they might have thought that I wasn't smart enough to load my gun before a firefight and taken action. As it was, I got the drop on them and they decided that it was not a good day to die for them. I went home and sometimes they went home or to jail, depending on what happened. Everytime I had to draw, I was justified. My training and the way I carry worked for me. Of course, it might be different for you.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:12:04 AM EDT
ocuppier,

Thanks for posting and clearing up a few things.

I only posted an excerpt from an article written by another author. It was not "just out of my head." It was published work and I imagine that the author did the research before he published it. You just can't go publishing BS in the American press, you will get sued if it's wrong or inaccurate - most of the time. Sorry if you don't agree with it.

Hey, whatever works for you and how you train. For me, the way I train and practice works for me.

BTW, I was an Infantryman and attended Ranger school and have attended many firearms classes from Gunsite and LFI. I have fired in defense of my life while employed by the US government. I have drawn my firearm as a civilian, but have yet to fire a shot, thank God. I really can't afford the liability if I had to.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:31:36 AM EDT
I carry hot. I TRAIN hot. I have competed in SWAT competitions where, for SAFETY, a round had to be chambered at the line. After TRAINING to draw, rack, fire, there was no significant difference in speed. Think about realistic scenarios. In an old west duel absolute speed would be critical. Now imagine an active shooter scenario. You hear shots in area, you draw, rack, ready. I PREFER to carry hot but, I can certainly see a valid argument for "Israeli"
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:44:44 AM EDT
You need to be very careful comparing CHL holders firearms incidents to police firearms incidents. My dept has not had an ND since 1997, and that was a uncased shotgun in a car trunk.

CHL holders ND at an amazing rate. The only time you really hear about it is when some bystander suddenly gains an unwanted hole. They also LOSE guns daily. (what IS it about CHL holders and bathrooms? One guy had visited the toilet in four different locations in three hours. We had to search for his Glock in each one. Didn't find it.)

The majority of CHL holder interactions with police come about because of some sort of weapons mishandling. (aside from DWI's)

When you get dispatched to a "stolen firearm" call, it's a pretty good chance it's just been "lost".

As for the Israeli method, they do it that way because it works for them. I don't see a problem with that.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:55:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BobP:

What I heard was that when Isreal was a young poor country, they got pistols from whatever source they could. There was a mis-matched collection of pistols, some single action, some double action, safeties in various locations and modes of operation. It was easier to teach one method which worked with all pistols, chamber empty, safety off. To fire the same motion was required no matter what you had, rack the slide and pull the trigger.



This makes sense.
The problem I have with this technique is that that first manually chambered round is a prime candidate for a FTF. I'd feel much more confident knowing for sure that the first round out of the mag actually was in the chamber ahead of time.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:12:04 AM EDT
Which is louder? that soft click in a firefight, or the round going off that hit's you. I probably don't have time to draw and fire if someone has a gun pointed at me, I KNOW I don't have time to draw rack and fire if they do. No one's brought that up yet. In a lot of situations it'd be best to be able to draw and fire with the least possible movement so they notice it later. It may only buy you a forth of a second, but when lead is flying that fourth (or less) of a second can be a life saver. All that being said, I've seen video of some israelis doing there lil dance and I'm amazed at how fast they are at it. Not as fast I can draw and shoot but pretty fast.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:20:48 AM EDT
AGNTSA.
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