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Posted: 2/26/2009 4:00:38 PM EDT
Inspired by this thread.



I was typing a reply when that thread got locked.  Let's try again but without the personal attacks, mkay?



Several of the self-professed liberal gun owners stated that the GOP stance on issues like abortion, gay marriage and education (creationism vs. evolution, in particular) were what kept them from "being Republicans".  Somebody even said that aside from these issues that they were more in agreement with the GOP than with the Democrats.



For me, this is the epitome of putting the cart before the horse.



I don't agree with the GOP on abortion.  I don't think there should be any federal laws on the subject at all.  It matters little anyways as that horse is dead and buried.  Abortion is legal and will remain so.  The GOP can keep that plank in their platform to placate the religious right but in reality it is a non-issue.



I don't agree with the GOP on farriage.  That's gay marriage to you.  Again, it matters little as it's a lost cause.  Someday soon anybody will be able to marry anybody so long as they're not too closely related or underage.  Again, this is a non-issue.



Creationism in public schools would not be the end of the world.  I'm not an advocate but again it matters little.  The national GOP is not pushing for creationism in public schools in any real way and they won't start anytime soon.  Most kids will hear Genesis chapter one before they get too old and some will believe it and some won't.  It's not like they're going to stop teaching evolution anytime soon, so again we have a non-issue.



Three "deal breakers" that are, in reality, non issues.  Yet apparently we have more than a few ARFcommers that let these minor, emotion-driven issues keep them from voting Republican.



On the other side of the same coin...



Gun rights.  This being AR15.com it makes sense that this would be a slam-dunk issue in favor of the GOP.



Taxes.  Anybody that thinks the Democrats have a better tax plan than the Republicans is either unfamiliar with the effect of taxation on an economy or willfully socialist.



Immigration/National Security/Foreign Policy.  I'm not in lock-step with the GOP here but the Democrats are marching to a tune I can't even hear.



And so on.



The big issues.  The ones that really matter.  When it comes to the issues that genuinely mean something in the grand scheme of things the GOP is hands-down the party with the right answers.



Conversely, the Democrats are kings of emotional non-issues that get people all worked up over nothing.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:19:55 PM EDT
[#1]
I had to take this persuasive writing class a few quarters ago and one of the first points the professor made was that we were assuming everyone would look at your argument logically.

... I think that's a pretty big assumption
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:23:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:25:07 PM EDT
[#3]
the people who personally attack DLoken and other pro-gun liberals are the exact, 180 degree opposite of what we need to be doing... we should be WINNING OVER liberals, not running them off.  Save the personal attacks for people on our side who would rather throw in the towel and give in to Obama.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:27:35 PM EDT
[#4]
I agree with you 100%

I sort of hijacked Dlokens retarded thread and was having an interesting discussion with Strongbow regarding this very theme, when the thread was locked.

I don't believe in Biblical Creationism,  but it doesn't threaten me in the least.   Even if some children are taught to believe in Creationism, it doesn't detract from their value as a citizen or as a human.  It is a non-issue.

I cannot for the life of me understand why somebody like Strongbow would feel more threatened by the Religious right, then by the likes of Obama, Pelosi and Biden.  

Perhaps he will weigh in and attempt to explain his fears.

The only explanation I can come up with is the the Liberal Media has successfully exploited the issue to propagandize voters who haven't yet mastered their critical thinking skills.

The Liberals have masterful propaganda and very few are immune to it's effects.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:27:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Inspired by this thread.

I was typing a reply when that thread got locked.  Let's try again but without the personal attacks, mkay?

Several of the self-professed liberal gun owners stated that the GOP stance on issues like abortion, gay marriage and education (creationism vs. evolution, in particular) were what kept them from "being Republicans".  Somebody even said that aside from these issues that they were more in agreement with the GOP than with the Democrats.

For me, this is the epitome of putting the cart before the horse.

I don't agree with the GOP on abortion.  I don't think there should be any federal laws on the subject at all.  It matters little anyways as that horse is dead and buried.  Abortion is legal and will remain so.  The GOP can keep that plank in their platform to placate the religious right but in reality it is a non-issue.

I don't agree with the GOP on farriage.  That's gay marriage to you.  Again, it matters little as it's a lost cause.  Someday soon anybody will be able to marry anybody so long as they're not too closely related or underage.  Again, this is a non-issue.

Creationism in public schools would not be the end of the world.  I'm not an advocate but again it matters little.  The national GOP is not pushing for creationism in public schools in any real way and they won't start anytime soon.  Most kids will hear Genesis chapter one before they get too old and some will believe it and some won't.  It's not like they're going to stop teaching evolution anytime soon, so again we have a non-issue.

Three "deal breakers" that are, in reality, non issues.  Yet apparently we have more than a few ARFcommers that let these minor, emotion-driven issues keep them from voting Republican.

On the other side of the same coin...

Gun rights.  This being AR15.com it makes sense that this would be a slam-dunk issue in favor of the GOP.

Taxes.  Anybody that thinks the Democrats have a better tax plan than the Republicans is either unfamiliar with the effect of taxation on an economy or willfully socialist.

Immigration/National Security/Foreign Policy.  I'm not in lock-step with the GOP here but the Democrats are marching to a tune I can't even hear.

And so on.

The big issues.  The ones that really matter.  When it comes to the issues that genuinely mean something in the grand scheme of things the GOP is hands-down the party with the right answers.

Conversely, the Democrats are kings of emotional non-issues that get people all worked up over nothing.


Not looking to start a war but I'm always puzzled how liberals say "why do Republicans make such a big deal over gay marriage, who cares who somebody marries, if you're not marrying them why does it matter" but then apparently it's such a big deal that as a member of Calguns put it 2 years ago "I'm pro second amendment, against hi taxes and government regulation but I can't cross over to the republicans because of their views on gay marriage" which leaves me thinking, is it a big deal or not?
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:29:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Every bill churned out by Congress has economic implications. On the other hand, social issues like abortion and gay marriage almost never are an issue in legislation.

From a purely pragmatic matter, one should vote on economic issues, forign policy issues, and issues like tort reform, asset forfiture, and gun control that have a high impact.

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:36:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
[Not looking to start a war but I'm always puzzled how liberals say "why do Republicans make such a big deal over gay marriage, who cares who somebody marries, if you're not marrying them why does it matter" but then apparently it's such a big deal that as a member of Calguns put it 2 years ago "I'm pro second amendment, against hi taxes and government regulation but I can't cross over to the republicans because of their views on gay marriage" which leaves me thinking, is it a big deal or not?



Ironic, since it was the black and latino Obama voters who made Prop 8 a slam dunk. The liberal elite of the Dem Party may love gays, but the bulk of Dem voters are homophobic.

Voting Donky Part due to social issues is basically a stuck on stupid emotional response. But most voters vote their emotions. The main problem Republicans face among blacks and hispanics is perception. Perception largely based upon feelings.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:38:26 PM EDT
[#8]
Being victimized gives them that orgasmic rush that Michael Moore says he gets when he votes for his favorite commie.

1. Express your views in the most obnoxious way.

2. Scream oppression when your even asked to be respectful.

3. Stand in the way of an officer or some form of security personnel  hoping that they may brush into you so you can yell "NAZI FASCISM RACIST" or something like that.

4. Go post on your blog that you were a victim of police brutality!


Shit i could be a Harvard professor

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:38:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
the people who personally attack DLoken and other pro-gun liberals are the exact, 180 degree opposite of what we need to be doing... we should be WINNING OVER liberals, not running them off.  Save the personal attacks for people on our side who would rather throw in the towel and give in to Obama.


You must of missed it, but DLoken proudly proclaimed that he Supported Obama, Voted For Obama, and in fact Still Supports Obama to the point of gloating about his victory.    He is far beyond any chance for redemption imho.    

However, some like Strongbow can probably benefit from a civil discourse, if only to strengthen their immunity to the propaganda that we all face everyday.

By the way, N_T, you could benefit greatly by taking your own advice.

You are a Master of Hypocrisy.

For those who might have missed N_T's classic rant earlier today:

Originally Posted by:

Napoleon_Tanerite


Posted: Today 6:03:01 AM MST
You are nothing but a spineless, gutless, yellow, chickenshit, limp dicked, defeatist COWARD. You are worthless scum not worthy of calling yourself a man, let alone a patriot. Your attitude is infectious, and a cancer to our cause. How can you expect to inspire others to fight for a cause if you yourself believe it is lost? Imagine if Ike's d-day letter said "good luck, but you're up against a continent full of pissed off Grrmans, so you're fucked.". Real inspiring, right? Ike had his doubts, but he exuded confidence and his men believed in him. If you believe your cause is lost, you'll have no trouble convincing others. Grow a spine and stop hurting our cause with your defeatist shit. Write, call, make a fucking stink. Be heard, and be a POSITIVE voice for our cause. Stop being a worthless cowardly piece of shit, because this site is damn full of them right now.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:40:45 PM EDT
[#10]
B/c they are communist liberal assholes
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 4:55:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Most people don't want to deal with the GOP because of their strong relationship between what our laws should be and what the sky faeries tell them they should be.

Its not abortion or gay marriage per se, its that the members of the GOP are against abortion and gay marriage BECAUSE SKY FAERIES TOLD THEM IT WAS BAD.

This is the hang up for most people.
Link Posted: 2/26/2009 5:19:50 PM EDT
[#12]
The NYT had an article or opinion piece that essentially said public discourse has become a "good versus evil" argument, which can clearly be seen on this site.  Minds are completely closed to the idea that people who disagree with them could be acting in good faith.  It's too bad.

Do you really think gun owners voted for Obama over gay marriage and so-called emotional issues?

Link Posted: 2/26/2009 6:40:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
The NYT had an article or opinion piece that essentially said public discourse has become a "good versus evil" argument, which can clearly be seen on this site.  Minds are completely closed to the idea that people who disagree with them could be acting in good faith.  It's too bad.

Do you really think gun owners voted for Obama over gay marriage and so-called emotional issues?




I would agree with that sentiment to some extent.  Yes, there are actually people here, who proudly vote for politicians who are KNOWN to support legislation which would turn us into criminals overnight.   I know it's hard to believe but a number of them have admitted it, some have even bragged about it.

Hundreds of thousands of Good Americans have died defending our Constitution, and those who would seek to destroy that precious document, deserve to be considered evil.  There is just no way to sugarcoat it.   I know it is simplistic thinking, but we are in a cultural war, and wars are not won by treating the Enemy with tolerance and understanding.  

For about 50 million Americans the situation is becoming clearer by the day.  There are those who support Liberty, and those who support Tyranny.  The ones who support Tyranny are the Enemy.  

A lot of decent Americans are tired of compromise, tired of accommodation and tired of feeling guilty for who they are.  I'm not just talking about Gun people either.  I hear it from people in all walks of life.  Taxation, Affirmative Action, Government interference in every part of our lives.  Frustration is building, and yes, these are all matters of Good Vs. Evil.

  We live in interesting times.
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