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Posted: 12/4/2007 10:10:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2007 11:53:31 AM EDT by david_g17]
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?

I find it hard to believe that they harass more people than other agencies like the IRS, EPA, OSHA, etc. and all they really do is make you fill out a form each time you buy a firearm. Yet, it seems that on gun boards the ATF is some sort of super-villain. Why do they have a reputation worse than any other .gov entity?

I've always despised them, but lately I'm questioning my own hatred. They've really never done me any direct harm. Certainly, they've never cost me more than the IRS.

Have any of you personally been harassed by the ATF? Every so often, a thread pops up about someone getting an FFL, and someone mentions how "professional" or "courteous" the agents they met are. Is this normal?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:11:19 AM EDT
Because this is a GUN board and the BATFE harasses GUN owners.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:11:21 AM EDT
more like why does the BATFE hate gun owners so much.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:11:34 AM EDT
I'm sorry if I'm not lovey dovey to the guys who are trying to take my guns and civil liberties away. That is all the ATF is about. I am not in the habit of loving my enemy.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:12:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:13:39 AM EDT by DWFAN]
Shoe laces....FTW!!!!!

ETA- They should also be a convenience store, not a .gov agency
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:13:25 AM EDT
Yes, that swinging axe blade over your head hasn't done you any harm... yet. Don't worry about it.

They have some professional and courteous agents, sure. But the agents don't make policy.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:14:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:14:13 AM EDT
Read No More Wacos and you'll totally understand...
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:14:21 AM EDT
Just when I think I've seen it all someone comes along and asks a question like this.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:14:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?

I find it hard to believe that they harass more people than other agencies like the IRS, EPA, OSHA, etc. and all they really do is make you fill out a form each time you buy a firearm. Yet, it seems that on gun boards the ATF is some sort of super-villain. Why do they have a reputation worse than any other .gov entity?

I've always despised them, but lately I'm questioning my own hatred. They've really never done me any direct harm. Certainly, they've never cost me more than the IRS.

Have any of you personally been harassed by the ATF? Every so often, a thread pops up about someone getting an FFL, and someone mentions how "professional" or "courteous" the agents they met are. Is this normal?


Maybe because when those organizations kill you, it is often slowely, and the people are scattered all over the place. When ATF kills you they chase you and everyone you know into a building and burn it down on top of you. Just a thought.

-Ben
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:15:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By killswitch1982:
I'm sorry if I'm not lovey dovey to the guys who are trying to take my guns and civil liberties away. That is all the ATF is about. I am not in the habit of loving my enemy.


+1

Couldn't have said it better. The sole fact that they are the enforcement end of gun laws makes them subject to such a bias by gun owners. If they were with us, they would be using their power to lessen gun laws and make their job easier. Clearly they are not with us.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:17:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:17:56 AM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
That's basically like asking why marijuana addicts hate the DEA.

Except there is no constitutional right to smoke tree which the government is ignoring as they regulate the drug industry.

Oh, and this didn't help alot either.

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:18:31 AM EDT
wow


Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:18:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?

Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:19:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:20:50 AM EDT by david_g17]

Originally Posted By shotar:
...The problem comes in when an agency is perceived as so bent on justifying its own purpose, that they bend and construe situations to create crimes where none was intended. No one likes the idea of the cops being " out to get " anyone. Few mind the idea of the cops detecting and prosecuting crime...


Let's take another example though. People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars. They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF.

Is this because of a negative "perception" alone? I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency? Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"?

I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with any agencies including the ATF.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:19:23 AM EDT
WTF, thats like saying "Why do you hate the bully and his cronies that take away and smash your toys?"

They keep making up BS laws and policies on a whim and then enforce them when it suits them.

If the ATF did what it was supposed to do and enforce the laws that existed they would run out of work in a short time and get shut down.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:19:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then.....


Sorta answers itself doesn't it?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:19:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:21:01 AM EDT
Because for EPA to pull a gun on you, shoot your dog, kick your door down, and keep you tied up on trumped up charges, it would take more than wiping your ass with a spotted owl.

It just seems the ATF is "itchin' to make some arrests" whether the violations are intentional or not.

Also, the scientific way they test firearms to determine a violation defies all logic and proceedure.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:22:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Let's take another example though. People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars. They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF.

Is this because of a negative "perception" alone? I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency? Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"?

I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with anything like that.


The highway patrol doesn't use excessive ammounts of CS gas to burn your family alive and shoot you for having something that over performs.

Its not perception, its track record.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:22:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:22:41 AM EDT
I don't "hate" them but I dislike the bs. For example, I just filled out a 4473 and I'm sick of the fact that I can't abbreviate Michigan with MI and, if you do, you have to change it, initial it and date it using MM/DD/YYYY format. What the hell? What other government agency won't let you abbreviate "Michigan" with "MI" or "pounds" with "lbs"? Hell, my driver's license, which the clerk used to verify my address, says "MI" in the address. It's stuff like this that makes you realize that the ATF sees its job as trying to make life difficult for gun owners and gun shops rather than just upholding the law.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:23:29 AM EDT

Why do gun owners hate the ATF so much?


Because the ATF deserves it!
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:23:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.



Are you serious?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:23:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.


Because their purpose is enforce laws that should not be in existence in the first place.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:23:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.


Well, the IRS didn't burn down the Branch Davidian compound, and the EPA didn't start Ruby Ridge.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:24:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:28:04 AM EDT by A_Sibley]
I'll take 'Shooting Vicky Weaver in the Face' for $200, Alex.

I guess that was technically the FBI, but you get the idea.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:24:47 AM EDT
Because of the first 3 things you said. That's why I hate them.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:27:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.


Well, the IRS didn't burn down the Branch Davidian compound, and the EPA didn't start Ruby Ridge.


Ah, at that time, ATF was a branch of the IRS.....
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:27:58 AM EDT
Having read some accounts of people's interactions with them when they are fishing for a violation I have zero respect for the agency as a whole. There are decent folks working there but I think the ATF spend a great deal of effort in the twisting and bending of words to make the law conform as they wish at the moment.

If little beads of sweat don't appear when the ATF takes some interest in your semi-auto collection, you don't understand what's on the line and how far they can be willing to go to find some mud that sticks.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:28:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Let's take another example though. People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars. They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF.

Is this because of a negative "perception" alone? I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency? Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"?

I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with anything like that.


The highway patrol doesn't use excessive ammounts of CS gas to burn your family alive and shoot you for having something that over performs.

Its not perception, its track record.


I see where you're going (some others hinted at this as well), but in all fairness, they haven't done that often nor have they done it lately (maybe things have changed, and they've learned?). There have been cases of a few cops beating/shooting people; nonetheless, perhaps that was a bad example.



Originally Posted By shotar:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By shotar:
...The problem comes in when an agency is perceived as so bent on justifying its own purpose, that they bend and construe situations to create crimes where none was intended. No one likes the idea of the cops being " out to get " anyone. Few mind the idea of the cops detecting and prosecuting crime...


Let's take another example though. People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars. They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF.

Is this because of a negative "perception" alone? I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency? Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"?

I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with anything like that.


I think this speaks to the huge cost barrier to defending against the nearly limitless resources of the Federal Government. If you get a speeding ticket in your superfast car, you can spend a few hundred bucks and fight it in municipal court if you believe you were not speeding.

If you try to go against a federal agency, it will cost a few hundred thousand. It is a matter of resources and perceptions. Lawyers cost money and that money is directly proportional to how much the opposition is willing to spend to prove its case.


Excellent point. Maybe if we could start some kind of legal defense fund for "ATF abuse", we could change things.

If there were another Ruby Ridge type situation, I know I'd like to help the guy out.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:28:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:31:40 AM EDT by shotar]
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:30:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:32:00 AM EDT by david_g17]

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
I don't "hate" them but I dislike the bs. For example, I just filled out a 4473 and I'm sick of the fact that I can't abbreviate Michigan with MI and, if you do, you have to change it, initial it and date it using MM/DD/YYYY format. What the hell? What other government agency won't let you abbreviate "Michigan" with "MI" or "pounds" with "lbs"? Hell, my driver's license, which the clerk used to verify my address, says "MI" in the address. It's stuff like this that makes you realize that the ATF sees its job as trying to make life difficult for gun owners and gun shops rather than just upholding the law.


Actually, there's some kind of form I had to fill out when I got my job (maybe an "I-9"?). They wouldn't allow any of those abbreviations either. not even "St." for "street" or "dept" for "department" or state abbreviations.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:31:17 AM EDT
Because the BATFE makes up "rules" as they go along for no reason. They ban items and/or guns for no reason. They collect money for their pockets for adding items to your gun. They goto dealers and try to make them look like their doing something wrong when their not, Example: My local shop had the ATF come by for their yearly checkup and 4 agents counted the gunsmiths inventory and all 4 got the count wrong. The gunsmith had to go to his area and point out the guns he had in his inventory one by one like talking to a couple of infants and they finally saw he had everything.

There are so many more reasons need I go on tho?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:33:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
That's basically like asking why marijuana addicts hate the DEA.

Except there is no constitutional right to smoke tree which the government is ignoring as they regulate the drug industry.

Oh, and this didn't help alot either.

home.eol.ca/~dord/waco_fire02.jpg




not a tag
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:33:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because the BATFE makes up "rules" as they go along for no reason. They ban items and/or guns for no reason. They collect money for their pockets for adding items to your gun. They goto dealers and try to make them look like their doing something wrong when their not, Example: My local shop had the ATF come by for their yearly checkup and 4 agents counted the gunsmiths inventory and all 4 got the count wrong. The gunsmith had to go to his area and point out the guns he had in his inventory one by one like talking to a couple of infants and they finally saw he had everything.

There are so many more reasons need I go on tho?


Is that any different from going through an IRS audit?

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely curious.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:33:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By Fearlessleader01:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Let's take another example though. People who like to modify their engines to get really fast cars. They probably dislike their state highway patrol, but they don't seem to have the near religious fervor against the highway patrol as gunowners have for the ATF.

Is this because of a negative "perception" alone? I mean, truthfully, is the ATF any better or worse than any other agency? Do other agencies tend to "make things up as the go along"?

I really don't know, b/c I don't have much experience dealing with anything like that.


The highway patrol doesn't use excessive ammounts of CS gas to burn your family alive and shoot you for having something that over performs.

Its not perception, its track record.


I see where you're going (some others hinted at this as well), but in all fairness, they haven't done that often nor have they done it lately (maybe things have changed, and they've learned?). There have been cases of a few cops beating/shooting people; nonetheless, perhaps that was a bad example.


Yes they COULD have changed, but have they? Maybe they have.

The thing about the ATF is, once they decide you messed up they do everything they can to destroy you.

I don't know about you, but I can't sue the U.S. Govt. and not go bankrupt.

Give anyone a little bit of power with virtually unlimited resources and you will lose.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:39:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because the BATFE makes up "rules" as they go along for no reason. They ban items and/or guns for no reason. They collect money for their pockets for adding items to your gun. They goto dealers and try to make them look like their doing something wrong when their not, Example: My local shop had the ATF come by for their yearly checkup and 4 agents counted the gunsmiths inventory and all 4 got the count wrong. The gunsmith had to go to his area and point out the guns he had in his inventory one by one like talking to a couple of infants and they finally saw he had everything.

There are so many more reasons need I go on tho?


Is that any different from going through an IRS audit?

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm genuinely curious.


Well when I talked to the gunsmith he told me they were getting pissy about the miscount and all the shops inventory but they had everything filed perfectly the way a 5yo would be able to count it. The fact is everything was in plain sight, meaning if I put 5 blocks in front of you and you counted 4, and 3 more of your freinds counted 4 and I say theres five and you give me attitude that theres 4 and go back and see five in plain sight its kinda like they were trying to miscount on purpose.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:40:46 AM EDT
One thing that really chapped my ass was when the manufacturer of the Atkins Accelerator had a go ahead letter from the ATF, went into production, sold units and shipped them and THEN had the ATF come back and say "SORRY, we were wrong, we are going to call them machine guns now, though our official definition of machine gun doesn't apply."
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:42:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:44:23 AM EDT by clement]
Does the highway patrol go and ask your family (or if they arn't home your neighbors) what you are doing driving when you go out on the highway? Why should the ATF harass your family if you go to a gunshow?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:45:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW:
One thing that really chapped my ass was when the manufacturer of the Atkins Accelerator had a go ahead letter from the ATF, went into production, sold units and shipped them and THEN had the ATF come back and say "SORRY, we were wrong, we are going to call them machine guns now, though our official definition of machine gun doesn't apply."


Yeah, I had forgotten about the AA. That was wrong. Very wrong. But they didn't burn down his house / shoot his wife / etc. So, maybe this ATF isn't like the "old" ATF?

Do other government agencies do things that are wrong? I'm sure they do. I'm just trying to see if I believe the extreme hatred of this agency is justified (and it may be).
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:45:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rosenrot:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.



Are you serious?


DU'er?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:46:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clement:
Does the highway patrol go and ask your family (or if they arn't home your neighbors) what you are doing driving when you go out on the highway? Why should the ATF harass your family if you go to a gunshow?


I've gone to many, many gun shows, and the ATF has never harassed my family.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:47:07 AM EDT
I think a lot of people hate, strongly dislike, or completely distrust the ATF because they arbitrarily change things and at least appear to be out to get people for technical violations w/ no intent. In this case it's not like the IRS came after you. The stuff the ATF comes after you for is a felony. Big lawyer bills, jail time, no voting, no firearms, little chance of a good job afterwards. What is there to *LIKE* about them?
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:47:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:48:55 AM EDT by david_g17]

Originally Posted By tyman:

Originally Posted By Rosenrot:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
Yes, they are unconstitutional; yes, they are screwy with their rules; yes, they've been known to cause some people trouble every now and then, but why is there so much hatred for the ATF?



Ummmm...isn't that enough?



I guess my real question is, what makes them so much worse than the other .gov programs and agencies? They seem to be singled out.



Are you serious?


DU'er?


Sorry, I was a DU'er, but they locked all of my accounts.

It was the night Bush was re-elected, if you didn't have fun on DU, you missed out.

But anyway, i'm not trolling; just looking for an explanation.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:47:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
That's basically like asking why marijuana addicts hate the DEA.

Except there is no constitutional right to smoke tree which the government is ignoring as they regulate the drug industry.

Oh, and this didn't help alot either.

home.eol.ca/~dord/waco_fire02.jpg

Eggs-actly, wrt all three statements.

You should write for the textbook.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:47:51 AM EDT
Cant say that I hate them persay.

I do not trust them as far as I could throw them. Like others have said, and their track record shows, they do things and then try to 'make the ends meet'.

One minute they are saying that there is a cache of illegal weapons... that gets shot down and they move onto the next excuse. They flip-flop on decisions.. one day something is legal and the next it isn't and 'hand them all in'.

Although every single dealing I had with BATFE agents was completely professional, I did have to sometimes call and talk to a couple different people to get a straight answer that they would put into writing.

Yup, don't hate them persay...... but Im for sure not going to be inviting them into the gunroom for a beer.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:50:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By clement:
Does the highway patrol go and ask your family (or if they arn't home your neighbors) what you are doing driving when you go out on the highway? Why should the ATF harass your family if you go to a gunshow?


I've gone to many, many gun shows, and the ATF has never harassed my family.


You haven't gone to the ones in question. Some people have and the story was carried in a newspaper.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:51:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2007 10:52:51 AM EDT by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By clement:
Does the highway patrol go and ask your family (or if they arn't home your neighbors) what you are doing driving when you go out on the highway? Why should the ATF harass your family if you go to a gunshow?

I've gone to many, many gun shows, and the ATF has never harassed my family.

They tend to leave alone the people wearing the same jackets they do.....


ETA: Without putting a state location in your profile, we can't tell if you're from Virginia, either.
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:54:31 AM EDT
I hate the ATF, they should not exist, they only exist because the revenuers that were stuck without anything to do after prohibition

If you ever got a Pres to kill the MG bans, they would be out of business, they do more for firearms than they ever did for alcohol or tobacco
Link Posted: 12/4/2007 10:55:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wise_jake:

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By clement:
Does the highway patrol go and ask your family (or if they arn't home your neighbors) what you are doing driving when you go out on the highway? Why should the ATF harass your family if you go to a gunshow?

I've gone to many, many gun shows, and the ATF has never harassed my family.

They tend to leave alone the people wearing the same jackets they do.....


ETA: Without putting a state location in your profile, we can't tell if you're from Virginia, either.


[casablanca]
What nationality are you?
I'm a drunkard.
[/casablanca]

But seriously, Knoxville, TN if it'll put your mind at ease. I don't work for any government agency. I believe smaller government starts with me.
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