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Posted: 6/19/2016 12:48:10 PM EST
Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:50:52 PM EST
[#1]
Quoted:
Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?
View Quote


9mm

The 1911 did the job quite well for decades. And when you are using hardball the 9mm simply lacked sufficient "stopping power." (Whether this is true or not is irrelevant. What matters is the perception at the time and 9mm was seen as a poor stopper.)

Then the 1911 got seriously worn out since we hadn't bought any new ones since the end of WWII. Congress wanted us to adopt a 9mm pistol to be NATO compatible. The military wasn't too keen on this so they set some impossibly high standards for reliability in the new tests. This started a major competition to create a pistol which could pass the impossible standards... and several pistols did.

That started the trend of modern ultra reliable 9mm handguns.

So, the reason we never adopted the Hi Power is that, by the time the military was forced to go to 9mm, there were many better options out there.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:51:29 PM EST
[#2]
FPNI

America doesn't do metric
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:51:58 PM EST
[#3]
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9mm
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Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


I'm sure the logistical part of dumping billions of rounds of .45 APC had a lot to do with it.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:52:36 PM EST
[#4]
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9mm
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Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:54:47 PM EST
[#5]
It was all about the money as usual.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:54:55 PM EST
[#6]
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Quoted:


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?
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Quoted:
Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?



By the time the powers that be saw the light of the 9mm goodness, the browning HP was an aging design and the market had several new contenders. The Sig 228 should have been our service pistol. I think it came down to cost though.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:57:19 PM EST
[#7]
I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 12:59:50 PM EST
[#8]
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Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?
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Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 1:01:43 PM EST
[#9]
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Quoted:


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.
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Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.


Fuck a bunch of NATO.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 1:04:23 PM EST
[#10]
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I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

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hypotethically say they switched to the hi power after WW2 if they would have had to replace it earlier than the 80s what would have switched to then?
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 1:05:19 PM EST
[#11]
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Fuck a bunch of NATO.
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Quoted:
Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.


Fuck a bunch of NATO.


Oh be quiet, the 9mm does the job.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 1:07:28 PM EST
[#12]

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Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?
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Quoted:


Quoted:

Just curious



as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?




9mm




Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?


Yeah but 9mm being adopted was decades after the BHP was introduced, hell when I was a kid 9mm was considered a "European cartridge" and good luck finding more than a box or 2 of it at the local gun store as the only people who needed it were ones that either bought or brought back a WWII European service pistol. It wasn't until the '80s that 9mm became very common at all around here, most of the guns in the US prior to that which used that ammo were European guns which had fairly limited followings.



During the interwar period there was no way the US military was going to go from .45 ACP because not only did they have large stocks of 1911s on hand, but there was also the fact that SMGs were still in common issue and they also all used .45 ACP; plus during that time period the US military wasn't spending any money they didn't have to. Cost of issuing new weapons in new calibers aside there was also institutional resistance to change, M1s weren't adopted in .276 and production FALs weren't chambered in .280, even though both rifles were designed in non-standard calibers but changed to accept standard ones for adoption. Militaries generally don't like change until they're forced to change.



 
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:05:15 PM EST
[#13]
The real question is; does it make any difference whatsoever what pistol the US military uses?

I mean, how often do pistols get fired in anger in the military? How often would one pistol fail to do what another does?

Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:16:55 PM EST
[#14]
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Quoted:  hypotethically say they switched to the hi power after WW2 if they would have had to replace it earlier than the 80s what would have switched to then?
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1911s.  
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:18:09 PM EST
[#15]
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Quoted:


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.

Most guns at that time could handle the higher pressure, but they weren't technically rated for it, so new guns with the designation have to be made.

I think it's a bunch of bullshit, because everything made since at least the 70s could handle 9 mm NATO.

Except maybe the Stars, but nobody was going to use them.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:23:11 PM EST
[#16]
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Quoted:


Oh be quiet, the 9mm does the job.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:



Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?


Technically it's 9mm NATO. And it was forced on the military by Congress back in the 1980s in order to be NATO compatible.


Fuck a bunch of NATO.


Oh be quiet, the 9mm does the job.

Not in ball it doesnt
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:23:17 PM EST
[#17]
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Quoted:
FPNI

America doesn't do metric
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The military sure as hell does.

Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:33:26 PM EST
[#18]

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Quoted:


I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.







 
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:40:45 PM EST
[#19]
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:42:55 PM EST
[#20]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg
 

Not just a British trooper
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:47:36 PM EST
[#21]
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Quoted:

Not just a British trooper
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg
 

Not just a British trooper


Prince shmince
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:48:29 PM EST
[#22]
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Quoted:


Prince shmince
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg
 

Not just a British trooper


Prince shmince

Royals and dictators (same thing?) dig the BHP.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:51:00 PM EST
[#23]
I dig the BHP, I demand a crown and my own island.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 2:53:27 PM EST
[#24]
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.

Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:02:09 PM EST
[#25]

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Quoted:


"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.



The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.



View Quote
I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.



 
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:05:01 PM EST
[#26]
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:05:56 PM EST
[#27]
Supposed lessons learned from the war in the Philippines. And pistols are stupid and no one took them seriously until the 80s.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:29:29 PM EST
[#28]
Fun fact:  the DOD wanted Glock to submit a modified 17 for the xm9 trials but they couldn't submit the samples on time.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:32:49 PM EST
[#29]
I needz me a Hi-Power.  Absolutely wonderful ergonomics.

Despite being full size in almost every respect it almost feels like a compact pistol.

Great sidearm.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:33:52 PM EST
[#30]
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Quoted:
I needz me a Hi-Power.  Absolutely wonderful ergonomics.

Despite being full size in almost every respect it almost feels like a compact pistol.

Great sidearm.
View Quote


Same here.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:34:21 PM EST
[#31]
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Quoted:
I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.

I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.
 


It is usually where you put the holes. Anyone charging you with a machete high on drugs isnt going to bleed out fast enough with anything less than .50

The amount of penetration and kinetic energy between pistol rounds  (in the 9-45 cal) is negligible. I would rather have more rounds to get that CNS hit or mobility kill to stop them in their tracks, then
fatally wound them with a bigger caliber while still letting them have enough time to mortally wound you.


also could have had this instead of the 1911.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:34:46 PM EST
[#32]
Legend is that if the US wanted to keep Aviano Air Base the US was going to select the Beretta.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:35:45 PM EST
[#33]
... the man in charge of the decision at the time had a larger cock
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:36:54 PM EST
[#34]
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Quoted:



By the time the powers that be saw the light of the 9mm goodness, the browning HP was an aging design and the market had several new contenders. The Sig 228 should have been our service pistol. I think it came down to cost though.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just curious

as well as if they did adopt say around the time the Hi-power came out along would it have lasted in our military?


9mm


Whats America's current service pistol chambered in again?



By the time the powers that be saw the light of the 9mm goodness, the browning HP was an aging design and the market had several new contenders. The Sig 228 should have been our service pistol. I think it came down to cost though.

It came down to us wanting to build a new base in Italy and already having enough bases in Germany.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:38:34 PM EST
[#35]
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Quoted:
I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.

I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.
 


Exsanguination is a fine incapacitation mechanism... For things that aren't trying to kill you back.  For that sort of thing it's not really relevant.

The .38 long Colt needed replacing because it was absolutely anemic, and even in RNL form couldn't penetrate enough to do any good.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:39:15 PM EST
[#36]

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Quoted:


FPNI



America doesn't do metric
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The Beretta M9 disagrees.



 
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:40:40 PM EST
[#37]
This was about the same time where diversity in competition was big... Give contracts to the 'special categories' to improve the acquisition process and gain a better product for reduced costs (yes, I said that with a straight face).  Since JMB had already designed 87% of all the small arms in use by the American military, it was decided to enable all those other disadvantaged companies in the competition in order to create a more socially diverse range of small arms suppliers.

No, really.  This is why.

Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:48:29 PM EST
[#38]
I love it when people quote old articles with the phrase "knock down power" as fact.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:51:15 PM EST
[#39]
Because pistols suck as a weapon of war and are mostly an afterthought or a status symbol. Most of the people issued them are so unlikely to ever see combat they don't want to give them a rifle but they want to give them something so blamo here is a pistol. The other group mainly consists of officers and or higher ranking NCOs showing off their swagger. There are a small number of combat oriented troops that carry them too but that number is small.

We already had the 1911 it worked well enough at being a holster weight and was already in the system so why change and buy new pistols / parts / ammo / come up with a new training program for a marginal improvement on a weapon system that really doesn't matter a whole lot. Especially when you factor in how poor the us military was at the time the high power was developed. I mean we had guys walking around in plywood tanks and broom handles made to look like mgs with guys yelling bang for training. Then post war we had a huge number of 1911s so why dump them. By the time the 1911's were worn out the hi power was outdated.

I have a theory that a lot of procurement comes down to crappy maintenance making a lot of a certain piece of equipment start to fail so big army jumps to something else and dumps the whole line of old stuff since that's easier than going through and individually weeding out beat to shit stuff and salvaging what's still good to go. Hence why the 1911's where kicked when they where, why the m9 is in perpetual let's replace it more as well. I mean it's easier to replace a few hundred thousand units spread across the world than make sure a competent armour checks out and fixes or deadlines each one.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:53:10 PM EST
[#40]
We already had a shitload of 1911s by the time 1935 rolled around.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:56:15 PM EST
[#41]
Replacing obsolete 1910's tech with obsolete 1930's tech didn't make sense.  Also, the Army is notoriously cheap and doesn't maintain what they purchase.  99.9% of M9 problems could be solved for less than $50 by issuing a locking block kit, recoil spring, and Mec-Gar magazine.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 3:56:58 PM EST
[#42]
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Quoted:
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.

View Quote

They love to omit the part about how the .30-40 Krag was not cutting it against the Moros, either.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:02:35 PM EST
[#43]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg
 

Could that actually be an Arcus (Hi Power clone) from the Afghan military?  I seem to recall either either Iraq and or Afghanistan used that particular pistol.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:08:13 PM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Could that actually be an Arcus (Hi Power clone) from the Afghan military?  I seem to recall either either Iraq and or Afghanistan used that particular pistol.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg
 

Could that actually be an Arcus (Hi Power clone) from the Afghan military?  I seem to recall either either Iraq and or Afghanistan used that particular pistol.


I doubt that the Prince would not carry an original L9A1
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:08:43 PM EST
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Could that actually be an Arcus (Hi Power clone) from the Afghan military?  I seem to recall either either Iraq and or Afghanistan used that particular pistol.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg  


Could that actually be an Arcus (Hi Power clone) from the Afghan military?  I seem to recall either either Iraq and or Afghanistan used that particular pistol.


Read the link you quoted carefully.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:14:44 PM EST
[#46]
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Quoted:
I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.

I've read that and it has always been consistent with my feelings that the larger the hole you poke in a person, the faster they bleed out.
 

Heavy bullet @ low velocity = trauma + wound
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:16:19 PM EST
[#47]
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Quoted:

They love to omit the part about how the .30-40 Krag was not cutting it against the Moros, either.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.


They love to omit the part about how the .30-40 Krag was not cutting it against the Moros, either.


The 1911 in .45acp was chosen because of Cavalry Horses.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:21:01 PM EST
[#48]
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Quoted:

They love to omit the part about how the .30-40 Krag was not cutting it against the Moros, either.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Handguns of the world : military revolvers and self-loaders from 1870 to 1945" has an epic write up of how the 1911 came to be.

The .38 was not cutting it in the Philippines, they needed a .45 punch to take down the Moros.


They love to omit the part about how the .30-40 Krag was not cutting it against the Moros, either.


This was also the reason why Black Jack Pershing brought about the use of the trench gun, model 1897 Winchester. They also reissued colt model 1973's in 45 long colt. And almost 100 years later, the us govt makes the same mistake again.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:22:10 PM EST
[#49]
It's always politics.
Link Posted: 6/19/2016 4:38:07 PM EST
[#50]
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I love both my 1911 and my Hi Power, but it just seems that the BHP is much more dainty/fragile. I'm pretty sure they would have replaced the BHP much sooner than the '80s when they replaced the 1911

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


British trooper in Afghanistan 2008.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN-465x640.jpg
 



British Prince.

Also, if the Brit's can switch to glocks for service pistol we should be able to also.
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