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Posted: 7/21/2013 8:48:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 8:51:26 PM EST
They would have gotten curbstomped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 8:52:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2013 8:52:40 PM EST by GarandM1]
Because Japan had toyed with the Soviets before, and were not too eager to repeat the experience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol

ETA: Beaten by less than a minute.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:12:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2013 9:12:38 PM EST by MonkeyGrip]
Nice Degtyaryov machine gun in a pic at that link:



I was just reading about those being used in the Spanish Civil War, a couple of years earlier.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:22:23 PM EST
They were planning Pearl Harbor so they could go get fuel.
We cut the japanese off from fuel resources and they struck.
We won the war because we starved the japanese and germans of fuel.
This in a nutshell.
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:24:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Spitcup:
They were planning Pearl Harbor so they could go get fuel.
We cut the japanese off from fuel resources and they struck.
We won the war because we starved the japanese and germans of fuel.
This in a nutshell.
View Quote

We won because we Saved Private Ryan.

Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:25:57 PM EST
Japan? Still bogged down by land wars in Asia and pretty newly at war with the US. Do you invade and seize the ripe western assets to your south or do you swing north and try to take marginal territory from the Soviets?
Link Posted: 7/21/2013 9:29:10 PM EST
They stood to gain more from the other places they took.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 2:13:18 AM EST
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Originally Posted By CaptainD:
Japan? Still bogged down by land wars in Asia and pretty newly at war with the US. Do you invade and seize the ripe western assets to your south or do you swing north and try to take marginal territory from the Soviets?
View Quote



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 2:36:43 AM EST
To this day i am still astounded that the Japanese leadership believed the USA would just roll over and be submissive if they executed the Pearl Harbor attack. Were they arrogant or misinformed?
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 2:39:02 AM EST
Because they weren't totally stupid.

Japan had a great army for fighting the Chinese. They were totally overmatched with all others. No effective combined arms, no tanks, crappy artillery, crappy small arms. What they had in the Pacific at the beginning of hostilities in 1941 was resources, limited. We did not. Once we moved resources to the Pacific the tide shifted, our resources were not limited.(in comparison to Japan)
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 2:54:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2013 2:55:58 AM EST by PanzerOfDoom]
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Originally Posted By KampusKop:



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.
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Originally Posted By KampusKop:
Originally Posted By CaptainD:
Japan? Still bogged down by land wars in Asia and pretty newly at war with the US. Do you invade and seize the ripe western assets to your south or do you swing north and try to take marginal territory from the Soviets?



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.

He understood that the US would be fighting against him, he understood all that that entailed.

It would seem to me that Hitler would have been unwilling to share a victory against the Soviets with anyone. I believe theirs was a partnership(axis)of necessity; not easy for me to believe Hitler did have the same untermenschen feelings for the Japanese.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 2:55:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By KampusKop:



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.
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Originally Posted By KampusKop:
Originally Posted By CaptainD:
Japan? Still bogged down by land wars in Asia and pretty newly at war with the US. Do you invade and seize the ripe western assets to your south or do you swing north and try to take marginal territory from the Soviets?



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.


I think by then the Japanese were tired of having their asses handed to them by the Soviets.

I can't remember the details, but it seems the Soviets kicked their teeth in 2 or 3 times between the world wars.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 2:56:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
To this day i am still astounded that the Japanese leadership believed the USA would just roll over and be submissive if they executed the Pearl Harbor attack. Were they arrogant or misinformed?
View Quote


I guess misinformed. The US in the late '30s and early '40s was very isolationist and pacifist and was seen as quite weak.

The military was not prepared.

Many reasons.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 3:17:28 AM EST
Japan was curb stomped by Zhukov and were afraid of the Russians. Additionally, the Imperial Japanese Army was already spread out over China chasing the Chinese. Their supply line was stretched thin (and so they supplemented it by taking food from the Chinese peasants). The Japanese realized that they could defeat the Chinese in battle, but couldn't crush the Nationalist (or Communist) Army as it could always flee. It was victory without conquest.

I read a PoW's book, Never Plan Tomorrow. He was in Manchuria when the war ended. Since the guards departed, he grabbed a bicycle and pedaled around to see what was outside the camp. A Japanese Army captain and his company tried to surrender to the PoW. The captain told the PoW that they did not want to be prisoners of the Russians and preferred to surrender to the Americans. The PoW refused to accept their surrender and pedaled away. The captain and his company tried to keep up to no avail.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 3:18:47 AM EST
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Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:

He understood that the US would be fighting against him, he understood all that that entailed.

It would seem to me that Hitler would have been unwilling to share a victory against the Soviets with anyone. I believe theirs was a partnership(axis)of necessity; not easy for me to believe Hitler did have the same untermenschen feelings for the Japanese.
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Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:
Originally Posted By KampusKop:
Originally Posted By CaptainD:
Japan? Still bogged down by land wars in Asia and pretty newly at war with the US. Do you invade and seize the ripe western assets to your south or do you swing north and try to take marginal territory from the Soviets?



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.

He understood that the US would be fighting against him, he understood all that that entailed.

It would seem to me that Hitler would have been unwilling to share a victory against the Soviets with anyone. I believe theirs was a partnership(axis)of necessity; not easy for me to believe Hitler did have the same untermenschen feelings for the Japanese.



The feeling was mutual. The Japanese thought THEY were from the Heavens; the Germans were just another foreign devil that they needed to do business with.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 3:20:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2013 3:23:07 AM EST by paris-dakar]
The IJA had their fill of the Red Army in their earlier combat in Mongolia, the Battle of Khalkhin Gol.

Zhukov dismantled them and they never wanted any part of the Soviets after that.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 3:21:26 AM EST
I suspect it's because they got stomped into the ground in every border action with the Soviets they got involved in.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 3:22:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:

We won because we Saved Private Ryan.

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Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
They were planning Pearl Harbor so they could go get fuel.
We cut the japanese off from fuel resources and they struck.
We won the war because we starved the japanese and germans of fuel.
This in a nutshell.

We won because we Saved Private Ryan.





Everyone knows we won because of The Tuskegee Airmen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:27:53 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Moose:




Everyone knows we won because of The Tuskegee Airmen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
They were planning Pearl Harbor so they could go get fuel.
We cut the japanese off from fuel resources and they struck.
We won the war because we starved the japanese and germans of fuel.
This in a nutshell.

We won because we Saved Private Ryan.





Everyone knows we won because of The Tuskegee Airmen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



Flyin around, talkin all ghetto, and shootin down Jerry, Yo.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:39:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
To this day i am still astounded that the Japanese leadership believed the USA would just roll over and be submissive if they executed the Pearl Harbor attack. Were they arrogant or misinformed?
View Quote

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:43:32 AM EST
I am going to guess that they were impressed with their friend Hitler's propaganda that his conquering Russia would all be over in just another few weeks. Why bother?
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:44:04 AM EST
Japan was waiting for Germany to get into Moscow itself before it launched its attack on Vladivostok.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:58:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By KampusKop:



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.
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Originally Posted By KampusKop:
Originally Posted By CaptainD:
Japan? Still bogged down by land wars in Asia and pretty newly at war with the US. Do you invade and seize the ripe western assets to your south or do you swing north and try to take marginal territory from the Soviets?



Let's say that hadn't attacked Pearl...

I remember reading that Hitler was livid with Japan over the attack on the U.S.

I assume because he wanted Japan on board for the attack on the Soviets.


The Christian Science Monitor published an article about Hitler and Pearl Harbour in Dec 2011. In the article, British historian Ian Kershaw is quoted saying that Hitler was delighted by the attack on Pearl Harbour (Barbarossa wasn't going as well as hoped at that time so news of a dramatic voctory by an Axis ally was a big morale boost to Hitler).
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/1207/Pearl-Harbor-Day-How-did-Adolf-Hitler-react-to-the-attack
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:58:10 AM EST
When Japan started planning it military moves in the 1920's there were two factions. The Strike North faction and the Strike South faction. Strike North was in favor of attacking Russia. Strike South favored expansion into the Pacific and Southeast Asia. The Strike South faction won the argument and the rest is history so to speak. In the Axis pact, there was no obligation to declare war if one of the other members did.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 7:21:56 AM EST
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Originally Posted By sigp226:

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.
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Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
To this day i am still astounded that the Japanese leadership believed the USA would just roll over and be submissive if they executed the Pearl Harbor attack. Were they arrogant or misinformed?

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.


My personal thought is that perhaps the Japanese were expecting a repeat of the Battle of Tsushima between Japan and Russia in 1905. Basically Japan mopped the floor with Russia in that naval battle, to the extent where the Russian navy was severely crippled and Japan was able to dictate peace terms to Russia. Since they'd done that to Russia in 1905, I suspect Japan thought they could do the same to the US in 1942, deliver a crushing blow to the USN and then force the US to accept Japan's terms for peace.

On a side note, in a strange twist of irony, in the early 1920's the UK had a significant hand in helping to set up the pilot training program of the IJN. as well as showing blueprints of UK aircraft carrier designs of that time to the Japanese (the UK expected to get sales contracts for ships and arcraft with Japan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sempill_Mission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill#Japanese_spy
The BBC made a documentory about William Sempill not that long ago.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 7:22:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By gaweidert:
When Japan started planning it military moves in the 1920's there were two factions. The Strike North faction and the Strike South faction. Strike North was in favor of attacking Russia. Strike South favored expansion into the Pacific and Southeast Asia. The Strike South faction won the argument and the rest is history so to speak. In the Axis pact, there was no obligation to declare war if one of the other members did.
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The odd thing is that Hitler declared war on the USA AFTER the Pearl Harbor attacks.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:17:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By sigp226:

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.
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Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
To this day i am still astounded that the Japanese leadership believed the USA would just roll over and be submissive if they executed the Pearl Harbor attack. Were they arrogant or misinformed?

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.


The best part is FDR's speech to congress after. It was the statesman version of Ric Flair shouting ''TO BE THE MAN, YOU GOTTA BEAT THE MAN. WHOOOOOOOOOOO!"
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:25:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By sigp226:

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.
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Originally Posted By sigp226:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
To this day i am still astounded that the Japanese leadership believed the USA would just roll over and be submissive if they executed the Pearl Harbor attack. Were they arrogant or misinformed?

I believe they thought that if they got rid of the U.S. Navy, they could have the Pacific all to themselves for a few years, consolidate their position, and negotiate a peace as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. In theory, it would have worked, although it wasn't a very good theory.


Correct. The attack on the US Navy at Pearl Harbor was to cripple the US fleet and protect the IJN flank as they proceeded to take over the western pacific. It was never thought to have been a knock out punch but to buy time for the land grab. A huge error on their part which resulted in in cementing our resolve for unconditional surrender with no chance of negotiations.

It would have been a very different war had Japan not attacked us.

As for Japan attacking Russia, they had already been handily beat before by them and plus their resources were stretched thin throughout the Pacific, China and Burma.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:47:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Tomtbo:




The odd thing is that Hitler declared war on the USA AFTER the Pearl Harbor attacks.
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Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
When Japan started planning it military moves in the 1920's there were two factions. The Strike North faction and the Strike South faction. Strike North was in favor of attacking Russia. Strike South favored expansion into the Pacific and Southeast Asia. The Strike South faction won the argument and the rest is history so to speak. In the Axis pact, there was no obligation to declare war if one of the other members did.




The odd thing is that Hitler declared war on the USA AFTER the Pearl Harbor attacks.



Yes he did and his military was not informed of it before hand. He simply announced it during a speech.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:09:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
Nice Degtyaryov machine gun in a pic at that link:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/MNRA_soldiers_1939.jpg

I was just reading about those being used in the Spanish Civil War, a couple of years earlier.
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Why does everyone in that pic have their eyes closed?






















Link Posted: 7/25/2013 10:11:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 10:30:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Bradders:


No, it was because of Bangalore torpedos and sticky bombs
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Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By Spitcup:
They were planning Pearl Harbor so they could go get fuel.
We cut the japanese off from fuel resources and they struck.
We won the war because we starved the japanese and germans of fuel.
This in a nutshell.

We won because we Saved Private Ryan.





Everyone knows we won because of The Tuskegee Airmen.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


No, it was because of Bangalore torpedos and sticky bombs



That they used at the Bulge.
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