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4/22/2019 5:32:20 PM
Posted: 3/18/2013 2:57:56 PM EDT
A recent blog post of mine. Hope you like it!

I am often struck by the devotion so many Christians express for a God whom they cannot see. People throughout history have both lived and died in the service of an invisible King, enduring the cruelest of tortures in His name. It would be one thing if the Christian God asked nothing--or at least, very little--us of, but that is simply not the case; He demands the entirety of our being and will accept nothing less. The stakes are high, for at the end of it all the most valuable thing we have to offer is ourselves. Thus, I think it’s important to understand the hiddenness of God.

God is, among other things, a God of beauty. He both defines beauty and is maximally beautiful. Perhaps He is (in some Platonic sense) the form of Beauty itself. Regardless, in order to more fully understand the elusiveness of God, I believe we must start with this simple acknowledgement: God is beautiful.

I think it is in poetry that we see the relationship between beauty and the implicit most plainly. Even the most simple of truths can be more deeply apprehended and appreciated when garbed in the wit and wordplay of the master poet. In poetry we are not spoon-fed the message the author is trying to convey; we must work for it. The poet invites us to participate in the lyrics if we want to discover their meanings; we are not told outright what they are. This feature of poetry bestows on its truths a special kind of power, the power of a truth ascertained through reflective thought and consideration. In this sense then, we can say that poetry is a participatory rather than spectatorial endeavor.

Consider what would have happened if, instead of writing "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening," Robert Frost would have just written something like, "life is a journey and sometimes it's cool to just stop and take in the beauty of it all." Frost doesn't really say too much more than that, but the explicitly stated message, while true, lacks the impact and emotional force of the poem; it is “ugly,” or at the very least, plain. There may be some aesthetic element in truth itself, but when presented in the mode of the explicit it fails to achieve the same impact of truth adorned in the beauty of the implicit. .

Thus, if God is the God of beauty, then He is also the God of the implicit. I think we can most clearly detect the implicitness of God in the life of Christ. Jesus didn’t come as many expected He would. He wasn’t borne out of Heaven in a blaze of glory. He didn’t come to conquer the nations with the sword and the scepter. No, at his most “explicit” God’s eternal glory was made manifest to us in a mucous-covered, wailing babe whose grand entry into this world was witnessed not by kings and magistrates, but by unwashed shepherds and farm animals. The only “crown” He wore was one of thorns, His mighty throne the hill of thieves and murderers.

This is how the King of Glory revealed Himself to us. It was implicit, subtle, and perhaps even ironic. It wasn’t even close to what we expected. And yet, the story of Christ is of such beauty and aesthetic appeal that it has shaken history to its core and irrevocably changed the course of mankind.

Jesus said, “Blessed are they who have not seen, yet still believe.” It’s easy to regard what Christ said here as a simple commendation of the faithful, but it bears so much more significance. Christ is not only praising those who have taken the initiative to participate in the lyrics of God’s grand poem of creation, love, and redemption that they might “see” God and apprehend the truth of His being; He is also saying that they are more blessed than even those who saw the human incarnation of God Himself.

God invites us to join in this adventure, this quest, to discover Him. God values truth—which is, in a very real sense, God Himself—so much that He is not content to present it in any but the most beautiful way possible. He has not seen fit to reveal Himself by means of our crude, fragile senses. Surely they could not come close to apprehending the fullness of His beauty. They may be adequate tools for the scrutiny of a more mundane reality, but our God is anything but mundane. People ask why God is elusive as if it runs contrary to what we should expect of Him. I answer that He must; anything less would diminish His glory.

The Creator speaks in the whisper of the autumn breeze; He can be seen both in the mighty thunderhead and the delicate orchid. He can be felt in the heartbeat of a newborn babe, tasted in the spring honey that represents the life work of tens of thousands. His scent is that of the honeysuckle in the prime of its bloom. He has elected to reveal Himself in the implicit, the subtle, and the profound. On occasion He has afforded us brief glimpses of His being unadorned with the mystery of the Numinous, but this is not His standard modus operandi; indeed, we shouldn’t expect it to be. Perhaps, instead of thinking of God merely as the Creator of the universe, we should also come to regard Him as the master Poet and Songwriter. Thus, it is partly our responsibility to uncover the truths He has so artfully presented us in the grand masterpiece of creation and His revealed Word.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 4:57:16 PM EDT
That's pretty good. When an atheist starts their stuff I ask them how many different species of life there are. As of now we know of close to 2 million species of flora and fauna, bugs and critters, fish and fowl. Much less single cells living organisms.......And then I ask them if it all came free with no obligations to a Higher Power. They usually shut up about then. There is so much beauty that God created and it's free.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 5:48:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2013 5:49:26 PM EDT by Japle]
Posted by artman54:
When an atheist starts their stuff I ask them how many different species of life there are. As of now we know of close to 2 million species of flora and fauna, bugs and critters, fish and fowl. Much less single cells living organisms.......And then I ask them if it all came free with no obligations to a Higher Power. They usually shut up about then. There is so much beauty that God created and it's free.

I have to say, in all honesty, I don’t believe a word of that.

Why would an Atheist be impressed with your reference to a “higher power”? He’s an Atheist, after all. He doesn’t believe in a “higher power”.

What’s “free” got to do with anything? Why would bringing up something totally irrelevant shut anyone up? Do they think you’re some kind of looney? Do they just want to get away from you?

Every Atheist I know would laugh at your “argument”.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 6:35:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By artman54:
That's pretty good. When an atheist starts their stuff I ask them how many different species of life there are. As of now we know of close to 2 million species of flora and fauna, bugs and critters, fish and fowl. Much less single cells living organisms.......And then I ask them if it all came free with no obligations to a Higher Power. They usually shut up about then. There is so much beauty that God created and it's free.


Ah yes... But then some of us understand differential reproduction so it's not a big mystery.

Link Posted: 3/18/2013 6:42:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By artman54:
That's pretty good. When an atheist starts their stuff I ask them how many different species of life there are. As of now we know of close to 2 million species of flora and fauna, bugs and critters, fish and fowl. Much less single cells living organisms.......And then I ask them if it all came free with no obligations to a Higher Power. They usually shut up about then.

If they do shut up, perhaps it's because your question makes no sense to them.
There is so much beauty that God created and it's free.

Hmm. first you imply that it is NOT free, and has attached to it an obligation to a Higher Power.

Now you say it IS free, which means there is no such obligation. Which is it???
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 6:56:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
God is, among other things, a God of beauty. He both defines beauty and is maximally beautiful. Perhaps He is (in some Platonic sense) the form of Beauty itself. Regardless, in order to more fully understand the elusiveness of God, I believe we must start with this simple acknowledgement: God is beautiful.

An unwarranted conclusion. Perhaps God chooses to remain invisible because he is hideously ugly. Or maybe the reason God cannot be seen is simply because he does not exist.
The Creator speaks in the whisper of the autumn breeze; He can be seen both in the mighty thunderhead and the delicate orchid. He can be felt in the heartbeat of a newborn babe, tasted in the spring honey that represents the life work of tens of thousands. His scent is that of the honeysuckle in the prime of its bloom. He has elected to reveal Himself in the implicit, the subtle, and the profound. On occasion He has afforded us brief glimpses of His being unadorned with the mystery of the Numinous, but this is not His standard modus operandi; indeed, we shouldn’t expect it to be. Perhaps, instead of thinking of God merely as the Creator of the universe, we should also come to regard Him as the master Poet and Songwriter. Thus, it is partly our responsibility to uncover the truths He has so artfully presented us in the grand masterpiece of creation and His revealed Word.

I don't know about God, but clearly you are quite a poet.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 7:12:56 PM EDT
The Bible is a good story that's been passed, reworded, translated, published, and told by word of mouth for a two thousand years.

Even better, a MAN named King James came along. Changed it to his liking.

What could ever be wrong.


Faith. Either you have it from the beginning, Or you never truly do.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 9:26:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
God is, among other things, a God of beauty. He both defines beauty and is maximally beautiful. Perhaps He is (in some Platonic sense) the form of Beauty itself. Regardless, in order to more fully understand the elusiveness of God, I believe we must start with this simple acknowledgement: God is beautiful.

An unwarranted conclusion. Perhaps God chooses to remain invisible because he is hideously ugly. Or maybe the reason God cannot be seen is simply because he does not exist.
The Creator speaks in the whisper of the autumn breeze; He can be seen both in the mighty thunderhead and the delicate orchid. He can be felt in the heartbeat of a newborn babe, tasted in the spring honey that represents the life work of tens of thousands. His scent is that of the honeysuckle in the prime of its bloom. He has elected to reveal Himself in the implicit, the subtle, and the profound. On occasion He has afforded us brief glimpses of His being unadorned with the mystery of the Numinous, but this is not His standard modus operandi; indeed, we shouldn’t expect it to be. Perhaps, instead of thinking of God merely as the Creator of the universe, we should also come to regard Him as the master Poet and Songwriter. Thus, it is partly our responsibility to uncover the truths He has so artfully presented us in the grand masterpiece of creation and His revealed Word.

I don't know about God, but clearly you are quite a poet.


I am not a poet. I both have a degree in and teach philosophy however

Of course, that just makes me a philosopher I imagine; not necessarily a good one
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 9:30:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MadRyan:
Originally Posted By artman54:
That's pretty good. When an atheist starts their stuff I ask them how many different species of life there are. As of now we know of close to 2 million species of flora and fauna, bugs and critters, fish and fowl. Much less single cells living organisms.......And then I ask them if it all came free with no obligations to a Higher Power. They usually shut up about then. There is so much beauty that God created and it's free.


Ah yes... But then some of us understand differential reproduction so it's not a big mystery.



Well, I do happen to understand "differential reproduction" (I have a degree in environmental biology), and it's still a mystery to me. If it's not a mystery to you, then (and take no offense) it is clear that you know less about it than you think you do.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:26:44 AM EDT
While I cannot vouch for all of the information in this video, it is relevant to this topic and causes me to doubt any chance of randomness in the universe.

http://youtu.be/0hvD5kLqjuw

There are numerous similar videos, many much longer and more explanatory, than this.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:10:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By artman54:
That's pretty good. When an atheist starts their stuff I ask them how many different species of life there are. As of now we know of close to 2 million species of flora and fauna, bugs and critters, fish and fowl. Much less single cells living organisms.......And then I ask them if it all came free with no obligations to a Higher Power. They usually shut up about then. There is so much beauty that God created and it's free.

It came about through billions of years of slow evolution. In fact, 99.9 percent of every species to every exist on the planet Earth is currently extinct. If all God made is beautiful he obviously needs work on maintenance.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:30:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By Bizzarolibe:
God is, among other things, a God of beauty. He both defines beauty and is maximally beautiful. Perhaps He is (in some Platonic sense) the form of Beauty itself. Regardless, in order to more fully understand the elusiveness of God, I believe we must start with this simple acknowledgement: God is beautiful.

An unwarranted conclusion. Perhaps God chooses to remain invisible because he is hideously ugly. Or maybe the reason God cannot be seen is simply because he does not exist.
The Creator speaks in the whisper of the autumn breeze; He can be seen both in the mighty thunderhead and the delicate orchid. He can be felt in the heartbeat of a newborn babe, tasted in the spring honey that represents the life work of tens of thousands. His scent is that of the honeysuckle in the prime of its bloom. He has elected to reveal Himself in the implicit, the subtle, and the profound. On occasion He has afforded us brief glimpses of His being unadorned with the mystery of the Numinous, but this is not His standard modus operandi; indeed, we shouldn’t expect it to be. Perhaps, instead of thinking of God merely as the Creator of the universe, we should also come to regard Him as the master Poet and Songwriter. Thus, it is partly our responsibility to uncover the truths He has so artfully presented us in the grand masterpiece of creation and His revealed Word.

I don't know about God, but clearly you are quite a poet.

I am not a poet. I both have a degree in and teach philosophy however

You are too modest. Your blog post was beautiful and poetic.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:42:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
99.9 percent of every species to every exist on the planet Earth is currently extinct.

One would think that if God is perfect, he would've got it right the first time instead of doing so much trial and error...
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 12:50:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
99.9 percent of every species to every exist on the planet Earth is currently extinct.

One would think that if God is perfect, he would've got it right the first time instead of doing so much trial and error...


Right? Religions also never seem to mention the 3 other bi-ped "humanoids" which roamed the Earth until roughly 50,000 years ago.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 1:07:06 PM EDT


Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 1:27:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:


Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.


The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 3:31:07 PM EDT
I don't believe that we are ever meant to see God while here on earth. I believe in order to see God, we must have faith in his existence and live by his guidance and will for our life. Then after we die, if we lived a life according to God's will, our prize will be eternal life in His Kingdom of Heaven where we will meet face to face.

God only shows his presence to those who believe in Him. Those who believe know when his presence is with them while people who don't believe wouldn't have any clue.

This is just my observation after being on both ends of the spectrum. YMMV
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 4:34:49 PM EDT
From Exodus 33:

18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

We are imperfect and cannot look at perfection in its own right.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 4:43:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 4:44:30 PM EDT by bluefalcon]
I can. I'm sorry that you don't want to.


ETA: that was directed at the OP, not the post above.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:15:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 8:33:32 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:


Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.


The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.




And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead. And their gods are dead too because they always were. Yahweh has been worshipped since day one, is worshipped now and will be worshipped until the end.

Perhaps I may never convince you, though I would try, but we will all find out soon enough.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:47:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:57:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 8:58:47 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.


My point is, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit and Christ will always be worshipped, throughout time. He is a living God. The gods of man come and go. Buddha and Krishna are relatively new false gods. False gods are created all ther time. It's as simple as making a golden statue. They cannot stand the test of time. Maybe money. Some people have probably been worshipping that close to as long.

As for getting out alive, the goal is to get your soul out alive. Your body will be wormdirt in about 75-100 years.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 10:11:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
I can. I'm sorry that you don't want to.


ETA: that was directed at the OP, not the post above.


Wait, wut?
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 6:21:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:


Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.


The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.




And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead. And their gods are dead too because they always were. Yahweh has been worshipped since day one, is worshipped now and will be worshipped until the end.

Perhaps I may never convince you, though I would try, but we will all find out soon enough.


Yahweh has been worshiped for for the (at least) 100,000 years humans have been on this planet in this current form? What evidence do you have of this?
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 6:23:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.


My point is, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit and Christ will always be worshipped, throughout time. He is a living God. The gods of man come and go. Buddha and Krishna are relatively new false gods. False gods are created all ther time. It's as simple as making a golden statue. They cannot stand the test of time. Maybe money. Some people have probably been worshipping that close to as long.

As for getting out alive, the goal is to get your soul out alive. Your body will be wormdirt in about 75-100 years.


Hinduism is the oldest recorded religion.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 7:27:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.


My point is, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit and Christ will always be worshipped, throughout time. He is a living God. The gods of man come and go. Buddha and Krishna are relatively new false gods. False gods are created all ther time. It's as simple as making a golden statue. They cannot stand the test of time. Maybe money. Some people have probably been worshipping that close to as long.

As for getting out alive, the goal is to get your soul out alive. Your body will be wormdirt in about 75-100 years.


Hinduism is the oldest recorded religion.


No it isn't. It does not appear in Genesis.Worship of Yahweh does.

There are no seculalr histories that go back as far as the Holy Bible. Even the histories of Josephus and Tacitus only record the New Testament era. Found tablets and Cuneiform take us back as far as the Hittites, we have the glyphs of the pharoahs and the cave drawings, but nothing exists in secular history about hinduism from the pre-flood era as far as we know, or it does has not been found yet.

Link Posted: 3/20/2013 8:18:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.

My point is, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit and Christ will always be worshipped, throughout time. He is a living God. The gods of man come and go.

The trouble is, there's no more proof for the existence of Yahweh than there is for Thor.

I don't presume to know what deities, if any, will be worshipped a couple thousand years from now.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 9:17:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.

My point is, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit and Christ will always be worshipped, throughout time. He is a living God. The gods of man come and go.

The trouble is, there's no more proof for the existence of Yahweh than there is for Thor.

I don't presume to know what deities, if any, will be worshipped a couple thousand years from now.


Then, and at the risk of sounding condescending, I would submit that you either know very little of either Thor or the Christian God (or both).

To begin with, the notion of "proof" is a flawed concept. Nothing can be proved absolutely. Some propositions can be shown more reasonable than others; that's about the extent of it.

Secondly, the Christian God possesses attributes which are in fact evidenced in the created order and that are consistent with the explanatory schema of the Christian theistic hypothesis. Thor is more of a "superman" than a god, much like the Greek and Roman deities.

If I were you, I would pick up some works by C.S. Lewis. If you have a background in philosophy, perhaps look into some of Alvin Plantinga's material (although I HATE HATE HATE his epistemology ). It seems to me that you've been reading a bit too much Dawkins/Harris et. al., but I very well be wrong about that.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 11:57:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2013 12:00:39 PM EDT by thatwhichisnt611]
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By stanc:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By thatwhichisnt611:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Everytime I venture away from the man made areas, and into nature, I see God in just about everything.

The same can be said about those who believed in Zeus, Allah, Krishna, and around 3,000 other gods mono/poly-theist gods people have worshiped throughout human history.

And where are the worshippers of Baal, Astarte and Zeus? All dead.

As are most of the worshippers of Yahweh who have ever lived. Nobody gets out of life alive, not even the most faithful of believers.


My point is, Yahweh, the Holy Spirit and Christ will always be worshipped, throughout time. He is a living God. The gods of man come and go. Buddha and Krishna are relatively new false gods. False gods are created all ther time. It's as simple as making a golden statue. They cannot stand the test of time. Maybe money. Some people have probably been worshipping that close to as long.

As for getting out alive, the goal is to get your soul out alive. Your body will be wormdirt in about 75-100 years.


Hinduism is the oldest recorded religion.


No it isn't. It does not appear in Genesis.Worship of Yahweh does.

There are no seculalr histories that go back as far as the Holy Bible. Even the histories of Josephus and Tacitus only record the New Testament era. Found tablets and Cuneiform take us back as far as the Hittites, we have the glyphs of the pharoahs and the cave drawings, but nothing exists in secular history about hinduism from the pre-flood era as far as we know, or it does has not been found yet.

http://i45.tinypic.com/ncnhgx.jpg


Using the bible to prove the bible. Solid logic right there.

Yes, secular histories go way back before the formation on the Bible. According to the Bible, the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Given the Earth is closer to 4.8 billion we can see much, much, much before the formation of scripture. To say anything other is living in some form of ignorance I can not even comprehend.

The earth is no where near as young as the bible claims, there was no world-wide flood, and there was no literal adam and eve. That is at least 3 errors in the first 6 chapters of the bible. The rest doesn't magically get better.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 12:43:04 PM EDT
If God was visible, to what would atheists (per definition in the dictionary) convert?
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