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Posted: 1/23/2009 6:28:17 AM EDT
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.



Where am I wrong?
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:31:24 AM EDT
[#1]
More recoil and muzzle blast.  Diminished magazine capacity, require two arms to operate, slow reloads.  FWIW buckshot doesn't penetrate any more than 55gr M183.  If you are going to use a load to incapacitate a human being, it doesn't matter what it is, it will go through walls.

5.56 can penetrate body armor better as well.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:32:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Who said I was?
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:32:55 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm not
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:34:01 AM EDT
[#4]
FWIW, I do have a shotgun ready for home defense, but really the first thing that I would grab is my AR and my G21.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:34:27 AM EDT
[#5]
I'm not.

I keep a 590A1 handy for social work.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:36:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I'm not.

I keep a 590A1 handy for anti- social work.




fixed....
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:37:14 AM EDT
[#7]
I'm not.  



Mine has an optic and a light, and with 8 rounds of slugs or 00 buck, I'm fine with it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:38:33 AM EDT
[#8]
I'm not mine is an 8 shot Ithaca 37.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:38:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Mossberg 500a w/ 00 buck shot!
W/springfield 1911 as back up!
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:38:51 AM EDT
[#10]
I have killed a few animals with a .223 and a 12 gauge.


I prefer the .223 if my life was on the line.

You may not and I'm completely fine with whatever you choose to protect your life with.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:39:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
I'm not.  

http://www.aiad.it/upload/aziende/azienda_/Beretta_benelli.jpg

Mine has an optic and a light, and with 8 rounds of slugs or 00 buck, I'm fine with it.


That's pretty damn sweet.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:39:34 AM EDT
[#12]
I'd rather have a pistol over both but if I had to choose I would rather have an SBR or something compact. My 18.5" 870 is too long for my small house and a pistol grip would make a 2nd shot difficult, IMO. Muzzle flash on the AR could be blinding however. Like I said, pistol.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:40:09 AM EDT
[#13]
I want an AR-15 that makes a sound like a shotgun being racked. God that would be teh awesome!
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:40:53 AM EDT
[#14]
First gun I'm going to grab is the Remington 870 Marine Magnum, with 7 rounds of 3in 00 buck. Don't have to be quite as precise as its going to spread a little bit more.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:41:39 AM EDT
[#15]
I ususally don't use longarms for HD due to securing issues.

CCW is on me. CCW is retired to nightstand. I leave, it leaves. I sleep, it sits beside me.

Longarm: either I leave it unsecured for an invader to steal, I have to spend money I don't have at the moment for some convenient bedroom storage device, or I waltz it to and from the safe as I come and go. None of these options work out for me at this time.

That said, one of the big things you forgot is maneuverability. Collapsed carbines are easier to move around doorways. Moreover, there are lightweight options and there are light/laser/optic options that are more popular. more varied, and more likely to be purchased for the AR. Finally (at least off the top of my head) the AR gives a quicker rate of fire including followup speed.

Shotguns are very powerful and effective HD tools, but it seems that you have to "mean business" to set one up optimally for HD. It seems that the average AR hobbyist will purchase half of the beneficial things for HD (rail, maybe an optic) automatically for range use.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:43:25 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm not against shotguns for home defense, but I know that an AR carbine is a better choice. The combat shotgun is easily the most misunderstood of all small arms.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:43:36 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.



Where am I wrong?


You are not wrong.  Shotgun is an excellent HD weapon. It is a matter of preference.  Anyone who says otherwise is on the .


Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:43:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.

Where am I wrong?


You're wrong on number 2.  While .223 has been inching up in price (like all other ammo), it is not hard to find.

Your AR-15 advantage list is whacked.  You have two things on one line.  You also forgot precision, low recoil, potentially lighter weight, lighter ammo, high reliability, and ease of carrying extra ammo.

12ga recoil can be punishing, especially for smaller and/or weaker shooters.  If it hurts to practice, then the person probably won't.  No practice = bad.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:44:11 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
First gun I'm going to grab is the Remington 870 Marine Magnum, with 7 rounds of 3in 00 buck. Don't have to be quite as precise as its going to spread a little bit more.


Unless you live in a huge mansion, buckshot out of an improved cylinder, will hardly spread more than 5-7inches across a room.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:45:01 AM EDT
[#20]
I like my 1-shot stop chances with 12ga. 00 buck.  Inside the home gunfights are going to be quick, close, and nasty, IMHO if you think you will score COM on the first shot, go shotgun, if questionable, go AR for the rapid follow up shots.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:47:18 AM EDT
[#21]
Capacity, more compact size with non NFA barrel lengths, lower recoil, higher rate of fire...
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:47:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.



Where am I wrong?



Actually, if I read and remember correctly, the 12ga is going to over penetrate and present more of a threat than the 5.56 will after going through a wall or what have you. The idea is that the 5.56 sheds its momentum, and thus lethality, much quicker than 00 or a slug will due to its much lighter mass.

Of course, I could be wrong –– just something I read.


Quoted:
I like my 1-shot stop chances with 12ga. 00 buck.  Inside the home gunfights are going to be quick, close, and nasty, IMHO if you think you will score COM on the first shot, go shotgun, if questionable, go AR for the rapid follow up shots.


I'm not sure that in the event of a home invasion, or whatever, I want the defining point of my game plan to be "I hit bad guy and he goes down on the first shot".
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:49:44 AM EDT
[#23]
I'm not against using one at all, but..."pump action is more reliable than the AR15 gas tube"??  Where did you pull that one from?  Ever short-stroked a pump action shot gun?
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:51:14 AM EDT
[#24]
I'm not against using one, I just prefer an AR 15. I am more comfortable with the AR-15 platform than any other, so why would I switch?
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:51:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I ususally don't use longarms for HD due to securing issues.

CCW is on me. CCW is retired to nightstand. I leave, it leaves. I sleep, it sits beside me.

Longarm: either I leave it unsecured for an invader to steal, I have to spend money I don't have at the moment for some convenient bedroom storage device, or I waltz it to and from the safe as I come and go. None of these options work out for me at this time.

That said, one of the big things you forgot is maneuverability. Collapsed carbines are easier to move around doorways. Moreover, there are lightweight options and there are light/laser/optic options that are more popular. more varied, and more likely to be purchased for the AR. Finally (at least off the top of my head) the AR gives a quicker rate of fire including followup speed.

Shotguns are very powerful and effective HD tools, but it seems that you have to "mean business" to set one up optimally for HD. It seems that the average AR hobbyist will purchase half of the beneficial things for HD (rail, maybe an optic) automatically for range use.


+1 I like this guy, he can come over and fuk my sister.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:52:33 AM EDT
[#26]
Mossy500 full of 3" OO right by my bed.......a half step further than my S&W

Im the only one on this floor and live alone , so background isn't an issue.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:52:49 AM EDT
[#27]
i use both 12 ga and ar 15.  Whichever I get to first is the one ill be using if i ever need it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:53:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
FWIW buckshot doesn't penetrate any more than 55gr M183.  


No, buckshot penetrates a lot more than M193.  I had the opportunity to watch a video that was shot at 3,000 frames per second.  The gelatine blocks were 18" long and weighed approximately 40 pounds and all shots were made 10 feet from the block.

The following rounds were tested:
.40 S&W out of a UMP
.45 ACP out of a UMP
.223 Remington LE223 T3
6.8 SPC 115 Grain Bonded
12 Gauge 00 Buckshot
12 Gauge Slug

There was only one round that went all the way through the block of gelatine, that was the 00 Buck.


Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:53:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Not against it.  Just won't bite the it's the most super, mega, happy, great, awesome, ass-kicking, non penetrating, no aiming needed, master blaster.  It's a gun, it comes with trade-offs.  Depends on your proficiency and circumstances if it's best for you.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:55:37 AM EDT
[#30]
With the way that things have been going lately, I am thinking about switching to a 12g for home defense over an AR.  I feel much more at ease leaving a $300.00 shotgun out against my bed than a $1,000.00 AR when I leave the house.

Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:58:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Ultimately, I think both would work great - and both could be more effective than my ccw in some situations.  That said, I use my ccw most of the time simply because it is not an issue to secure.  Politically, I would prefer a self defense shotgun in most situations if securing it was not an issue - would really be interested in one that could reliably feed mini-shells.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:59:25 AM EDT
[#32]
In daylight, awake and aware or from a prepared position; sure I'd break out one of my AR's.

At 0430, without my glasses and awakened from sleep to a bump in the night?
I'll roll out from the bed with the Mossberg.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:02:03 AM EDT
[#33]
SAIGA 12!
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:03:43 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I like my 1-shot stop chances with 12ga. 00 buck.  Inside the home gunfights are going to be quick, close, and nasty, IMHO if you think you will score COM on the first shot, go shotgun, if questionable, go AR for the rapid follow up shots.


I'm not sure that in the event of a home invasion, or whatever, I want the defining point of my game plan to be "I hit bad guy and he goes down on the first shot".


Er, what should be my goal there?  Goal- personal survival.  Method- most rapid incapacitation of a threat possible.  

I live alone, so the hostage scenario, headshot only thing is unlikely.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:03:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads?

2. Easier to mount a weapon light.
3. lighter weight.
4. Easier to operate with one hand if/when necessary.
5. Able to penetrate commonly available soft body armor.

Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:04:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I ususally don't use longarms for HD due to securing issues.

CCW is on me. CCW is retired to nightstand. I leave, it leaves. I sleep, it sits beside me.

Longarm: either I leave it unsecured for an invader to steal, I have to spend money I don't have at the moment for some convenient bedroom storage device, or I waltz it to and from the safe as I come and go. None of these options work out for me at this time.

That said, one of the big things you forgot is maneuverability. Collapsed carbines are easier to move around doorways. Moreover, there are lightweight options and there are light/laser/optic options that are more popular. more varied, and more likely to be purchased for the AR. Finally (at least off the top of my head) the AR gives a quicker rate of fire including followup speed.

Shotguns are very powerful and effective HD tools, but it seems that you have to "mean business" to set one up optimally for HD. It seems that the average AR hobbyist will purchase half of the beneficial things for HD (rail, maybe an optic) automatically for range use.


This is exactly what I think also.

Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:04:52 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.



Where am I wrong?


My biggest point  w/ an AR is mag capacity and length.  I run either an AR pistol or SBR most of the time.  I'll take short (10.25 - 11.5) AR over 18" shotgun in the house.  I am also more comfortable w/ the higher mag capacity of the AR.  If things are bad enough that I'm shooting tangos in my bedroom there is no such thing as too much ammo.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:05:32 AM EDT
[#38]
I keep my 870 by the bed for late night encounters.  I figure it would be an easier weapon to grab and wield while I am still half asleep.  on my night table resides my G30 with night sights...and 5 steps away, on the dresser, is an AR.  I can grab that is the S really HTF and i am a bit more awake.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:06:38 AM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:08:04 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I'm not against using one at all, but..."pump action is more reliable than the AR15 gas tube"??  Where did you pull that one from?  Ever short-stroked a pump action shot gun?


No, I have never short-stroked a pump.  I know it's possible and I tried to make myself short stroke but I couldn't get it to do it.  

If I were to short-stroke it, I'm confident I could clear it very quickly even under high-stress conditions.  OTOH, I have had ARs jam up on me that required much more time to clear.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:08:36 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
In daylight, awake and aware or from a prepared position; sure I'd break out one of my AR's.

At 0430, without my glasses and awakened from sleep to a bump in the night?
I'll roll out from the bed with the Mossberg.


This.

Not opposed at all. More than likely the sound of that 870 chambering a round will stop most confrontations on the spot. If not, well I'm more comfortable with the increased hit probability due to my old eyes and glasses. You can adjust shot size to decrease over-penetration if you're in an urban area. If it gets really serious then my 870 will see me to where the M4 is stored.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:10:01 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I like my 1-shot stop chances with 12ga. 00 buck.  Inside the home gunfights are going to be quick, close, and nasty, IMHO if you think you will score COM on the first shot, go shotgun, if questionable, go AR for the rapid follow up shots.


I'm not sure that in the event of a home invasion, or whatever, I want the defining point of my game plan to be "I hit bad guy and he goes down on the first shot".


Er, what should be my goal there?  Goal- personal survival.  Method- most rapid incapacitation of a threat possible.  

I live alone, so the hostage scenario, headshot only thing is unlikely.


Well, obviously the goal should be to incapacitate and eliminate the threat as soon as possible. I just thought it a little funny that you more or less said, "If I feel like I can do it with one shot, I'll grab the shotgun. If I'm feeling less accurate or there are multiple threats, I'll grab the AR."

It just conjured images in my mind of you shooting at someone with the shotgun, missing, and then thinking to yourself, "Man, I wish I'd brought the AR," or shooting at someone and a second person shows up –– "Crap! Not fair badguy #2. I brought my shotgun counting on a 1 on 1 fight. You wait your turn."

Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:11:02 AM EDT
[#43]
For me, it's a Remington 870 Tactical with either 1 buck or 00 buck.  I feel the best about it.  Just my personal preference.  Second choice is a Smith & Wesson wheel gun.  There's just something about a pump and wheel gun that makes me feel a bit more in control if I experience a bad round or jam.

Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:12:22 AM EDT
[#44]
I love my shotguns, for the first 9 rounds at least.  Then things get more complicated.



P.S. At close range its no problem to do the "hostage rescue" headshot with a shotgun.  You need to know the pattern of your ammo at close ranges.  In general, if you aim above the bad guy's ear, on the side of his head opposite from the hostage, you'll still get a few 00 buck pellet strikes in his head without hitting the hostage at all.  You need to train to do it but once you incorporate it into your training regimen it becomes just another drill.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:12:24 AM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:15:02 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
2. Easier to mount a weapon light.  
3. lighter weight.
4. Easier to operate with one hand if/when necessary.
5. Able to penetrate commonly available soft body armor.



2) I disagree with, you can get $25 weapons light clamp at any decent gun store that attaches to the magazine tube, takes all of 30 seconds to attach.  Add pressure switch to the slide and you're in business.

3) and 4) are both true, and 5), body armor penetration, may become a big deal as criminals start wearing more vests, but BA on a bad guy is still pretty rare.  Ask me again in a couple years, though.

One thing I like in a shotgun is the weight and solid construction.  I butt stroked someone once with an 870 in a home defense situation, took him out of the fight.  That wouldn't happen with the collapsible stock on an AR, might even disable the gun.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:17:41 AM EDT
[#47]
I've put a lot of rounds through 870s over the many years and have never short-stroked one, nor have I seen anyone else.  Never even heard of the phenomena until reading here.

At any rate, there are a lot of firearms that would be just fine for home defense, including shotguns.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:22:01 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.



Where am I wrong?


I had this debate with myself and I weighted the pros and cons ended up putting my shot gun in the safe and have an AR in the bedroom now.  I came at it from the other direction: is there anything that a shotgun can do that an AR can't?  Other than breaching and loading different types of ammo?

1) I'm not breaching anything for home defense so I don't care.  
2) yes a shotgun can shoot slugs, #4, #2, #8, etc.  In a home defense gun I used to just keep 00 in it.  I couldn't imagine sitting there in the dark...  "hmmm...  if this guy has body armor, I should load a slug, but if I miss it will go through all the walls in my house so let me put in a #6 so it doesn't over penetrate.  What if it is a grizzly bear and not a person in my living room?  I better put the slug back on top."

Some things you may not have considered:
- Longer
- Heavier
- More Recoil
- Slower Follow-up Shots
- Less Capacity
- Slower Reload
- Less Ergonomic (a small or large person can manipulate an AR, not the same with the reach needed to effectively work the slide on many shotguns)
- Less control over where the extra projectiles are going
- More skill/training to operate effectively - My wife can pick up my AR, run the charging handle and go to town with a 30 rnd mag in it and won't really have to manipulate the weapon too much to cover the bedroom door and scream into the phone at 911.

But really, go with what you're comfortable with and where your experience lies.  If you've been shooting a shotgun for 20 years don't run out and get your first AR because some guy on the internet said so.

One factors in my decision to use an AR for defense was the fact that I was in the military for a long time.  I am comfortable with the AR and I know I can manipulate, load, unload, clear malfunction, etc in the dark.  I think confidence and competence have a lot to do with it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:22:25 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:23:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
I realize this is ar15.com not remington870.com, but I have to ask anyway.  Lord knows this has never been asked here before.  

AR-15 advantages:
1. Higher capacity with lightning-fast reloads


Remington 870 advantages:
1. Pump action is more reliable than ar-15's gas tube
2. Ammo is easily available for practicing
3. Less range = less risk of hitting neighbors house.  Sure, slugs will go through walls but they don't have much range at all compared to the supersonic 5.56 NATO.



Where am I wrong?



Talk about being picky and choosy about the things you choose to bring up.


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