Why are we Americans so backward with cars and bikes?

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Posted: 7/16/2013 10:42:18 AM EDT

Seriously... I'm as patriotic as they come. I'm pretty convinced that The USA does just about everything better than just about every other country. But when it comes to motorized ground transport... we suck. I hat to be blunt, but that''s how I feel. We build crappy cars and crappy motorcycles. We're obsessed with sedans, and hate hatchbacks. We buy slow heavy motorized lawn furniture while the cutting-edge standards, sportbikes and dual-purpose bikes sit in showrooms getting dusty. The world watches F1, Rally, Le Mans, V-8 Supercars, and touring cars while we watch 1,500 consecutive left turns in 1960s technology. Even our "enthusiast" culture is going nuts... the car magazines are full of hybrid apologists and carbon dioxide emissions stats.

America used to be a car culture. America lends itself to a car culture, with our wide open spaces. What has happened to us?

Posted: 7/16/2013 11:01:23 AM EDT

[#1]

The average car owner would buy a car because they think it is "cute".

Unfortunately, Americans are stupid when it comes to vehicles, but it isn't anything new by any means. If it was a new problem, we wouldn't have cars in our past like 4 cylinder Mustangs and the original Volkswagen Beetle wouldn't have been as popular as it was.

As for motorcycles, Harleys are selling all over the world, so it isn't just us. While I admit most Harley owners own Harleys for the image, many still enjoy the riding experience of a smooth riding and comfortable bike. In addition, on a cruiser, you seem to enjoy the ride without the extreme and constant temptation of breaking the speed limit.

Posted: 7/16/2013 11:09:10 AM EDT

[#2]

I'm just blowing off steam... I'm frustrated.
Talking about the little Ford Fiesta ST in a thread over in GD. Such a neat little car, but we only get the 130-pound heavier, more expensive 5-door, not the 3-door.
It's the reverse of what it "ought to be"... Europe was expensive gas, draconian vehicle taxes, and a massive public transport system. We should be the nation or motoring enthusiasts, not them. But they thrash us soundly, and it just seems to keep getting worse.

Posted: 7/16/2013 11:16:31 AM EDT

[#3]

Not really sure what you mean, but as far as I and all my friends are concerned, the car culture is alive and well. Plenty of very fast and cool cars to choose from these days.

cadillac cts-v
corvette z06 and zr1
camaro zl1
mustang gt and boss302 and gt500
hemi challenger
ford gt

etc.etc...

Its a lot better than it used to be, Ford fiesta? is that a joke?

ETA: I hate nascar and watch formula 1 and motogp every weekend. :)

Posted: 7/16/2013 11:20:24 AM EDT

[#4]

I like my cars, trucks and bikes American, or at least semi-American. Not a race car driver wanna be or thrill seeker. I enjoy what I like, and I like my choices. My 2010 Challenger SRT8 has seen some mild customizing to send it even further back in time, looks wise anyway. I chose Victory over Harley but like Harley as well. Next bike will probably be a 2015 or 16 Indian. The only thing that pisses me off is that you cant get an American brand full sized gas powered 1/2 ton pickup with a standard shift.

Posted: 7/16/2013 11:21:28 AM EDT

[#5]

I think a lot of it has to due with insurance.

For a second throw the collision and emissions standards out the window, the thing that bars most crazy eruo and japanese cars from hitting our shores is insurance. The insurance companies would look at a hot hatch and say nope nope nope nope and charge you out the ass for it. And when you figure that the target demo for most of the low price, high performance vehicles are teens and young adults you realize they can't stomach both a car payment AND a ridiculous Jackie Chan Stunt Team insurance coverage payment.

When I was a young idiot I had an 87 Dodge Shelby Daytona and I shit you not I paid just as much a month in insurance premiums for that thing as I did for my car payment. My friend had a Toyota Celica Supra and he was in the same boat... insurance ate us alive.

Now figure that today's youth market is all about electronics packages, storage for all their crap and plus 40 mpg mileage and you can see why the tiny, slow boxes on wheels are so popular.

I also think that CAFE has cock-punched any sort of performance lineup from most American manufacturers. They have to offset their work trucks and SUVs with crap to appease the gods of emissions and safety, and adding hot hatches and other performance options into the mix will upset that delicate balance. ALSO American manufacturers are hyper sensitive to "self competition" these days. They don't want anything they make to be seen as "infringing" on anything else they make, so they don't want a hot hatch that will steal sales away from their higher markup six banger mustangs and camaros.

I can't speak to the bike market, but it's been my impression that the bike market has become more about "being seen riding" than actually riding... hence the continued popularity of Harley Davidson merchbikes. I have several good friends who are sport bike nuts and they too do not "get it" why sport bikes are not massively popular in the US.

Posted: 7/16/2013 11:47:03 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

America used to be a car culture. America lends itself to a car culture, with our wide open spaces. What has happened to us?

When you're ranked as one of the fattest/most obese countries in the world...what do you expect. People are to lazy to get off the couch or away from their tech to spend time out on the road, let alone work on their own vehicles.

I'm more disappointed in the fact that it's pretty hard to find a vehicle with a manual transmission nowadays in the US. Americans don't like them as a whole, only the niche market of econo-boxes and performance cars really has them, because it's harder to learn and doesn't allow them to "multi-task" while driving putting every other motorist at risk.

Posted: 7/16/2013 12:01:54 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Not really sure what you mean, but as far as I and all my friends are concerned, the car culture is alive and well. Plenty of very fast and cool cars to choose from these days.

cadillac cts-v
corvette z06 and zr1
camaro zl1
mustang gt and boss302 and gt500
hemi challenger
ford gt

Sure, you can get a fast American car if you want to spend 60K+... and don't mind it being a pile of junk in 5 years.
What Europe does so much better is the small, affordable car that is fun to drive.

Posted: 7/16/2013 12:15:23 PM EDT

[#8]

The US motorcycle market evolved from our massive interstate system and incredible distances between cities, making a comfortable bike that is adept at cruising the most popular.

European/Japanese motorcycles were designed to be small, sporty things more capable of slicing through traffic.

Nowadays, who knows?

Posted: 7/16/2013 12:23:32 PM EDT

[#9]

CAFE standards.. when you're fleet average is supposed to be 50 mpg having a super awesome 12mpg bucket of fun isn't worth the fines.

That and my '11 Fiesta has 11 airbags. I think i heard the Euro has half that.

Posted: 7/16/2013 1:20:12 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

I'm just blowing off steam... I'm frustrated.

Talking about the little Ford Fiesta ST in a thread over in GD. Such a neat little car, but we only get the 130-pound heavier, more expensive 5-door, not the 3-door.

It's the reverse of what it "ought to be"... Europe was expensive gas, draconian vehicle taxes, and a massive public transport system. We should be the nation or motoring enthusiasts, not them. But they thrash us soundly, and it just seems to keep getting worse.

The Focus ST has a really slow 1/4 mile time, and there are still complaints about torque steer. The fact it doesn't even have a mechanical limited slip differential makes it a disappointment. If they called the Focus ST a Focus "Sport" package, I'd be fine - but they are touting it as some kind of hot compact performance car. They might as well throw in an automatic transmission to make it 100% mainstream.

Posted: 7/16/2013 1:27:20 PM EDT

[#11]

Meh. Sure there are some cool European cars....But as a guy who travels to Germany regularly, it's not like everyone in Europe is driving GTIs and BMW M3s (M4s?

) and whatnot, it's alot of Ford Ka's and small Citroens and Renaults and older Opels..Not something I'd wanna drive...I will take my understeer, FWD midsized sedan over on of them anyday

Sure they do have cool dual sports, and I see quite a few BMW twins........But for every one cool bike there is, there's got to be at least 15 50-100cc scooters, once again, not something I'd ever want...I'll keep my metric cruiser....even though a Bmw r1200 would be cool, if their dealer wasn't 85.7 miles away

Just different cultures I guess.. Here, if you drive a hatchback you're a weirdo...There, if you drive a car with a "weird trunk" then you're a weirdo.

I was recently in the market for a new car and considered the Fiesta ST as well...Until I sat in one(The top level Fiesta, can't imagine the Fiesta ST give's much more room) if you're over 5'2 good luck fitting, I can't remember a car I have been more cramped in, lol

Posted: 7/16/2013 1:41:08 PM EDT

[#12]

OP, what are some of the cars you have driven and/or owned both domestic and foreign?

Give us your real-world experiences and comparisons .....................

Posted: 7/16/2013 1:52:22 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
The US motorcycle market evolved from our massive interstate system and incredible distances between cities, making a comfortable bike that is adept at cruising the most popular.

European/Japanese motorcycles were designed to be small, sporty things more capable of slicing through traffic.

This applies to four-wheeled vehicles as well. They have whole countries smaller than our states, full of cities with tiny streets, no parking, and lots of public transportation. There is an almost total absence of pickups and far fewer full-size SUVs.

Take a look at a population density map, as well.

Posted: 7/16/2013 2:35:24 PM EDT

[#14]

The above post sums it up.

To put things in perspective the ENTIRE uk is about the geographical size of Arkansas and Louisiana combined. France or Germany is about the size of Texas. Lets face it Europe isn't really even a continent it's merely a small part of north western Asia

This difference of scale has an effect of the evolution of the auto. Why do you think Australian cars have been so similar to ours historically. A nimble little hot hatch that's a joy on English back roads would just be a chore to stay in on I40 all day between Memphis and Amarillo.

A real auto enthusiast can appreciate a big heavy floaty American Land barge that can devour the miles effortlessly. Only a shallow fanboy thinks a cars performance stats tell the entire tale.

Posted: 7/16/2013 2:56:03 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

This difference of scale has an effect of the evolution of the auto. Why do you think Australian cars have been so similar to ours historically. A nimble little hot hatch that's a joy on English back roads would just be a chore to stay in on I40 all day between Memphis and Amarillo.

A real auto enthusiast can appreciate a big heavy floaty American Land barge that can devour the miles effortlessly. Only a shallow fanboy thinks a cars performance stats tell the entire tale.

The majority of American car buyers don't seem to care about performance, at all. The number 1 best selling car has been the F-series pickup truck even with crazy gas prices. The Focus, Escape, and Fusion are also Ford's top sellers. None of these are performance oriented vehicles. Although the current Focus, Escape, and Fusion are actually European cars sold in the US. The 2012-up Focus, 2013 Escape/Kuga, and the 2013/2014 Fusion/Mondeo are almost purely European designs that meet US regulations. The high end models of the above run the 1/4 mile in 15.0-15.1 seconds or maybe high 14s if that.

I don't think there are many large "floaty" American land barges anymore, except for a few exceptions like the Ford Taurus/MKS and Impala with severe understeer. Most of the newer car designs have improved chassis dynamics.

Posted: 7/16/2013 3:39:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not really sure what you mean, but as far as I and all my friends are concerned, the car culture is alive and well. Plenty of very fast and cool cars to choose from these days.

cadillac cts-v
corvette z06 and zr1
camaro zl1
mustang gt and boss302 and gt500
hemi challenger
ford gt

Sure, you can get a fast American car if you want to spend 60K+... and don't mind it being a pile of junk in 5 years.
What Europe does so much better is the small, affordable car that is fun to drive.

If you would like to purchase a Camaro or a Challenger for $60,000, please contact me immediately.

Quoted:
The US motorcycle market evolved from our massive interstate system and incredible distances between cities, making a comfortable bike that is adept at cruising the most popular.

European/Japanese motorcycles were designed to be small, sporty things more capable of slicing through traffic.

Nowadays, who knows?

I don't agree with this. I remember the 1970s. Harley was the brand. Everything else was sneered at by American riders. Japanese bikes were derided for their appearance and inexpensive price. They were not without issues. Seats fell apart, chrome was garbage, mufflers rotted, etc.

What they did was inspire new demographics to buy motorcycles. These were people who couldn't afford a Harley, or didn't want to be part of the public culture of Harley Davidson. How you feel about that culture doesn't matter. What matters is that there was another market, and the Japanese makers filled it.

As they found the new customers for their bikes, they had to innovate to compete. If you wanted a Harley, you bought a Harley. If you wanted a Japanese bike, you could buy Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki. They had to offer something else to attract buyers. Make it go faster and handle better. Harley probably misinterpreted the comments of its customers when they said they hated "Jap bikes." They kept making cruisers and building their following. Success can be a trap. Harley Davidson makes a fortune. Why mess with it?

Now the foreign makers are trying to copy the Harley style. Harley screwed up Buell pretty badly, but their thinking is at least, understandable. They were wrong, but I think in the next ten years, they will try the sportbike market again. If not, they will find themselves surrounded by an ocean of foreign cruisers who test their ideas all over the world, and Harley will find its share of that market shrinking badly.

Posted: 7/16/2013 3:56:18 PM EDT

[#17]

This is America, get both!

Many of the points have been hit, mainly the divergent design of our transport systems and some culture thrown in. The US transport system was designed in a post industrial revolution/modern era. Our cities, streets and highways are designed from the outset to move autos. Europe had to work around a millennia of infrastructure already in place for foot and horse traffic.

These constraints plus the divergent cultural views(US generally individualistic, Europe more collective) focused the euros on heavy public transport after WWII versus the US interstate and suburb system. These developed into the US producing larger vehicles to do it all: commute, haul people and cargo and cruise down enormous stretches of straight interstate while the euros generally needed less do-it-all transport but something that would move people efficiently without taking up a ton of space or money.

And as has been mentioned as well, not everyone was driving triumphs, 2002's, etc etc. the hot hatches were a result of some of the suburbanizing of Europe as well, requiring a bit more for the car than straight people moving.

Posted: 7/16/2013 4:03:44 PM EDT

[#18]

As for the "quality" disparity... Sure, some euro cars were/are built better than the domestic counterparts. The US consumer historically had more disposable income than Europeans, so getting a new car every few years wasn't entirely uncommon. Other stuff the euros built was just a cheap/bad as the US. Build to a price point. And of course import tariffs on us vehicles to Europe didn't help.

Posted: 7/16/2013 4:15:20 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not really sure what you mean, but as far as I and all my friends are concerned, the car culture is alive and well. Plenty of very fast and cool cars to choose from these days.

cadillac cts-v
corvette z06 and zr1
camaro zl1
mustang gt and boss302 and gt500
hemi challenger
ford gt

Sure, you can get a fast American car if you want to spend 60K+... and don't mind it being a pile of junk in 5 years.
What Europe does so much better is the small, affordable car that is fun to drive.

You dont know much about cars I think. The europeans that you think make such nice things, buy a tremendous amount of the components from US companies. I dont know the content %, but BMWs use a hell of a lot of US stuff and GM specifically.

As for US cars being crap after 5 years, I think your full of it on that one. The cars I chose last longer than anything from Europe and easily. I also dont really care for much from Europe as its all pretty much the same ole thing and I guess I grew tired of it all. Stupid as hell to pay what they are asking as well.

Its all really a matter of perceived preference at this point.

Posted: 7/16/2013 4:21:10 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I'm just blowing off steam... I'm frustrated.
Talking about the little Ford Fiesta ST in a thread over in GD. Such a neat little car, but we only get the 130-pound heavier, more expensive 5-door, not the 3-door.
It's the reverse of what it "ought to be"... Europe was expensive gas, draconian vehicle taxes, and a massive public transport system. We should be the nation or motoring enthusiasts, not them. But they thrash us soundly, and it just seems to keep getting worse.

You have the wrong target. Blame the government not the American consumer.

The root cause is the NHTSA and DOT. Crash testing in the USA does not allow modeling simulation for alternate configurations like Europe. So we get one chassis and one or two powertrain options. The cost of destroying several cars to pass the needed testing, results in limiting what cars and configurations we can get.

Got the same floorpan and crush zones between the 5-door and the 3-door? Does not matter, the change in B & C pillar location and shape between the two means full rounds of testing for each. That is big $$ relative to sales and manufacturing margins. You get test the highest volume configuration and that is what will be marketed.

Posted: 7/16/2013 4:21:49 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Sure, you can get a fast American car if you want to spend 60K+... and don't mind it being a pile of junk in 5 years.
What Europe does so much better is the small, affordable car that is fun to drive.

Right... considering the sheer abuse, road conditions, and things like salt (thank you midwest) that cars here have to put up with, I think one would realize that all the "cool cars that they only get in Europe" would simply dissolve or shake themselves apart in far less time than most "crappy American cars" would. Fuck, they did for decades before finally pulling their godforsaken garbage off of our market...

What would last well? Peugeot? Renault? Alfas? Even more Fiats?

I'll take my chances with a Mustang, thanks.

One can reasonably expect one to stay in one piece.

Posted: 7/16/2013 5:38:49 PM EDT

[#22]

Americas problems are not the vehicles themselves, but the idiots operating them, Ins. Companies, and .gov..

You have more freedoms in your vehicle than you do in your home.......kill someone in a car crash Vs. shooting an intruder.
THAT is my frustration.

Now, I hate the fact that an MC is considered a "toy", lane splitting is on par with eating the baby Jesus, and some dinky ass 84 mpg 3 wheeler is considered gay.

Posted: 7/16/2013 5:51:11 PM EDT

[#23]

I think to many of you look at vehicles as fun, sporty ect. For most people vehicles are for going to and from work and the store. If you drive in traffic everyday, there is no reason to have a car that will do 0-60 in 4 seconds, because you can't do any of that on the street.
I drive a crew cab f150 because they are comfortable and I can move stuff like my motorcycles with it.

Posted: 7/16/2013 7:06:10 PM EDT

[#24]

"Well our research shows, _____ is not in high demand and there is no market for it." Coming from a company who has never made _____, no shit there is no demand for something you do not sell.

And round and round we go...

We need more bold companies that are willing to explore and take risks. With the economy the way it is, I don't see that happening any time soon.

Posted: 7/16/2013 7:10:45 PM EDT

[#25]

It is bullshit that a 500cc sport bike can run off and leave a 1500+cc HD.

I currently ride a Harley and have owned an R6 so I have no hate for either....its just depressing.

Posted: 7/16/2013 7:21:55 PM EDT

[#26]

The answer is Unions. In all seriousness that is why American cars suck today as much as they do.

Companies are not free to take risks and develop quality vehicles bc of the razor-thin margin on all of their vehicles. This is due largely to the UAW.

When you have accountants deciding what design gets produced you get crap cars.

Posted: 7/16/2013 9:15:44 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
It is bullshit that a 500cc sport bike can run off and leave a 1500+cc HD.

I currently ride a Harley and have owned an R6 so I have no hate for either....its just depressing.

You may have your correct tool for the job thing mixed up.

Posted: 7/16/2013 10:06:18 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm just blowing off steam... I'm frustrated.
Talking about the little Ford Fiesta ST in a thread over in GD. Such a neat little car, but we only get the 130-pound heavier, more expensive 5-door, not the 3-door.
It's the reverse of what it "ought to be"... Europe was expensive gas, draconian vehicle taxes, and a massive public transport system. We should be the nation or motoring enthusiasts, not them. But they thrash us soundly, and it just seems to keep getting worse.

You have the wrong target. Blame the government not the American consumer.

The root cause is the NHTSA and DOT. Crash testing in the USA does not allow modeling simulation for alternate configurations like Europe. So we get one chassis and one or two powertrain options. The cost of destroying several cars to pass the needed testing, results in limiting what cars and configurations we can get.

Got the same floorpan and crush zones between the 5-door and the 3-door? Does not matter, the change in B & C pillar location and shape between the two means full rounds of testing for each. That is big $$ relative to sales and manufacturing margins. You get test the highest volume configuration and that is what will be marketed.

You forgot the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety..... they're probably worse than DOT or NHTSA, because they work for the Insurance industry. They get away with bigger and better lies.

Posted: 7/16/2013 10:21:19 PM EDT

[#29]

Huh... cars these days are faster, handle better, are safer, and more reliable than any time in history (domestic and foreign). Even "crappy" base model vehicles have twice the horsepower and much higher handling than the days of "classic" American muscle.

I guess I don't see what the complaint is. There's tons of stuff to choose from. It wasn't like back in the day there wasn't a plethora of relatively mundane transportation available. It's hard to find anything you're looking for these days from anyone for less than $30k, but there are a few out there.

Posted: 7/17/2013 12:40:25 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Huh... cars these days are faster, handle better, are safer, and more reliable than any time in history (domestic and foreign). Even "crappy" base model vehicles have twice the horsepower and much higher handling than the days of "classic" American muscle.

I guess I don't see what the complaint is. There's tons of stuff to choose from. It wasn't like back in the day there wasn't a plethora of relatively mundane transportation available. It's hard to find anything you're looking for these days from anyone for less than $30k, but there are a few out there.

+1

Any pissant car today will last 10+ years. The mainstream cars these days run as fast as the performance cars from 10-15 years ago. The fuel economy is also much better.

The 2013 Toyota Camry V6 is about as fast as a stock 99-04 Mustang GT, while the 2013-2014 Fusion Titanium EcoBoost is slower, but still respectable for a performance sedan back in the late 1990s. The Chevy Equinox / GMC Terrain / Caddy SRX has 301-308 hp from a V6 engine. That's like the output of a 1999 Mustang Cobra or a 2003 Mercury Marauder.

Posted: 7/17/2013 3:05:53 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Huh... cars these days are faster, handle better, are safer, and more reliable than any time in history (domestic and foreign). Even "crappy" base model vehicles have twice the horsepower and much higher handling than the days of "classic" American muscle.

I guess I don't see what the complaint is. There's tons of stuff to choose from. It wasn't like back in the day there wasn't a plethora of relatively mundane transportation available. It's hard to find anything you're looking for these days from anyone for less than $30k, but there are a few out there.

+1

Any pissant car today will last 10+ years. The mainstream cars these days run as fast as the performance cars from 10-15 years ago. The fuel economy is also much better.

The 2013 Toyota Camry V6 is about as fast as a stock 99-04 Mustang GT, while the 2013-2014 Fusion Titanium EcoBoost is slower, but still respectable for a performance sedan back in the late 1990s. The Chevy Equinox / GMC Terrain / Caddy SRX has 301-308 hp from a V6 engine. That's like the output of a 1999 Mustang Cobra or a 2003 Mercury Marauder.

No its not.

1984 Honda Civic hatchback.....46 mpg with an idiot surfer/skater at the wheel. Probably could have done 50 mpg

Posted: 7/17/2013 4:35:14 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm just blowing off steam... I'm frustrated.
Talking about the little Ford Fiesta ST in a thread over in GD. Such a neat little car, but we only get the 130-pound heavier, more expensive 5-door, not the 3-door.
It's the reverse of what it "ought to be"... Europe was expensive gas, draconian vehicle taxes, and a massive public transport system. We should be the nation or motoring enthusiasts, not them. But they thrash us soundly, and it just seems to keep getting worse.

You have the wrong target. Blame the government not the American consumer.

The root cause is the NHTSA and DOT. Crash testing in the USA does not allow modeling simulation for alternate configurations like Europe. So we get one chassis and one or two powertrain options. The cost of destroying several cars to pass the needed testing, results in limiting what cars and configurations we can get.

Got the same floorpan and crush zones between the 5-door and the 3-door? Does not matter, the change in B & C pillar location and shape between the two means full rounds of testing for each. That is big $$ relative to sales and manufacturing margins. You get test the highest volume configuration and that is what will be marketed.

You forgot the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety..... they're probably worse than DOT or NHTSA, because they work for the Insurance industry. They get away with bigger and better lies.

So true. I stand corrected.

Posted: 7/17/2013 4:40:52 AM EDT

[#33]

People should not be allowed to purchase what they want. The OP should be the arbiter of all things automotive.

Posted: 7/17/2013 4:47:39 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

I'm just blowing off steam... I'm frustrated.

Talking about the little Ford Fiesta ST in a thread over in GD. Such a neat little car, but we only get the 130-pound heavier, more expensive 5-door, not the 3-door.

It's the reverse of what it "ought to be"... Europe was expensive gas, draconian vehicle taxes, and a massive public transport system. We should be the nation or motoring enthusiasts, not them. But they thrash us soundly, and it just seems to keep getting worse.

Smaller cars have more appeal in Europe for a bunch of reasons, gas prices, and it seems like there are narrower streets, more restricted parking, not sure about taxes and registration. A fast hatchback there makes sense, in the US how many people really want a fast hatchback instead of a Mustang (or whatever)?

Personally I think fast hatchbacks are cool. I had a housemate who had a 80s GTI which was the neatest little car ever. But unless you are a single metrosexual/gay dude how practical are they? Is an american family really going to pile into a suped up little economy car hatchback to drive to Virginia beach for a week?

Posted: 7/17/2013 4:49:44 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
This is America, get both!

Many of the points have been hit, mainly the divergent design of our transport systems and some culture thrown in. The US transport system was designed in a post industrial revolution/modern era. Our cities, streets and highways are designed from the outset to move autos. Europe had to work around a millennia of infrastructure already in place for foot and horse traffic.

These constraints plus the divergent cultural views(US generally individualistic, Europe more collective) focused the euros on heavy public transport after WWII versus the US interstate and suburb system. These developed into the US producing larger vehicles to do it all: commute, haul people and cargo and cruise down enormous stretches of straight interstate while the euros generally needed less do-it-all transport but something that would move people efficiently without taking up a ton of space or money.

And as has been mentioned as well, not everyone was driving triumphs, 2002's, etc etc. the hot hatches were a result of some of the suburbanizing of Europe as well, requiring a bit more for the car than straight people moving.

I'd say it's sort of the opposite - Europeans tend to shop more for something that will "do it all." Or, at least all they need it to do. This, there is more emphasis on versatility. Some American wioth a sports sedan might also have a pickup. The German with the Mercedes Wagon makes do with one vehicle. Those people who buy the dual sports motorcycles ride them year-round, rain or shine, winter or summer. American motorcycle riders tend to ride as a hobby, when the weather is nice. They have a car otherwise.

Posted: 7/17/2013 5:13:15 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

I'd say it's sort of the opposite - Europeans tend to shop more for something that will "do it all." Or, at least all they need it to do. This, there is more emphasis on versatility. Some American wioth a sports sedan might also have a pickup. The German with the Mercedes Wagon makes do with one vehicle. Those people who buy the dual sports motorcycles ride them year-round, rain or shine, winter or summer. American motorcycle riders tend to ride as a hobby, when the weather is nice. They have a car otherwise.

I probably should have specified a bit more - they do need something to do a lot of things (haul people, groceries, the dog, etc), but not at the scale that the US does, due to the differences in taxes, fuel and space. Whereas an american could buy a fullsized station wagon and not have any issues (which the full sized station wagon could haul everyone, their stuff, tow, and get pretty much anywhere in the US without issue) a euro couldn't have the same car, so they need something that will fit their needs but still fit their area - hence smaller cars. Often a byproduct of the smaller cars of all types was lighter weight and better performance going in directions other than straight.

And divergent from us, euros aren't going to drive 2,000 miles on vacation; they'll hop on a train to get where they're going.

Posted: 7/17/2013 5:20:30 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'd say it's sort of the opposite - Europeans tend to shop more for something that will "do it all." Or, at least all they need it to do. This, there is more emphasis on versatility. Some American wioth a sports sedan might also have a pickup. The German with the Mercedes Wagon makes do with one vehicle. Those people who buy the dual sports motorcycles ride them year-round, rain or shine, winter or summer. American motorcycle riders tend to ride as a hobby, when the weather is nice. They have a car otherwise.

I probably should have specified a bit more - they do need something to do a lot of things (haul people, groceries, the dog, etc), but not at the scale that the US does, due to the differences in taxes, fuel and space. Whereas an american could buy a fullsized station wagon and not have any issues (which the full sized station wagon could haul everyone, their stuff, tow, and get pretty much anywhere in the US without issue) a euro couldn't have the same car, so they need something that will fit their needs but still fit their area - hence smaller cars. Often a byproduct of the smaller cars of all types was lighter weight and better performance going in directions other than straight.

And divergent from us, euros aren't going to drive 2,000 miles on vacation; they'll hop on a train to get where they're going.

The ones that do drive, buy the big station wagons.

The market for the little hatchbacks is indeed based on the realities of the environment. They are also cars that try to do everything. Spend a week parking in urban parking garages even in the US, and you appreciate small cars. When that is your only car, and you occasionally haul shit, you appreciate a hatchback.

To most Americans who will only buy a small sporty car to fart around in, and use a different car to haul groceries, a bicycle, etc., they are all too often just dismissed as "ugly."

We see that in thread after thread here.

Posted: 7/17/2013 5:25:39 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'd say it's sort of the opposite - Europeans tend to shop more for something that will "do it all." Or, at least all they need it to do. This, there is more emphasis on versatility. Some American wioth a sports sedan might also have a pickup. The German with the Mercedes Wagon makes do with one vehicle. Those people who buy the dual sports motorcycles ride them year-round, rain or shine, winter or summer. American motorcycle riders tend to ride as a hobby, when the weather is nice. They have a car otherwise.

I probably should have specified a bit more - they do need something to do a lot of things (haul people, groceries, the dog, etc), but not at the scale that the US does, due to the differences in taxes, fuel and space. Whereas an american could buy a fullsized station wagon and not have any issues (which the full sized station wagon could haul everyone, their stuff, tow, and get pretty much anywhere in the US without issue) a euro couldn't have the same car, so they need something that will fit their needs but still fit their area - hence smaller cars. Often a byproduct of the smaller cars of all types was lighter weight and better performance going in directions other than straight.

And divergent from us, euros aren't going to drive 2,000 miles on vacation; they'll hop on a train to get where they're going.

The ones that do drive, buy the big station wagons.

The market for the little hatchbacks is indeed based on the realities of the environment. They are also cars that try to do everything. Spend a week parking in urban parking garages even in the US, and you appreciate small cars. When that is your only car, and you occasionally haul shit, you appreciate a hatchback.

To most Americans who will only buy a small sporty car to fart around in, and use a different car to haul groceries, a bicycle, etc., they are all too often just dismissed as "ugly."

We see that in thread after thread here.

Indeed.

Posted: 7/17/2013 5:43:49 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

The average car owner would buy a car because they think it is "cute".

Unfortunately, Americans are stupid when it comes to vehicles, but it isn't anything new by any means. If it was a new problem, we wouldn't have cars in our past like 4 cylinder Mustangs and the original Volkswagen Beetle wouldn't have been as popular as it was.

As for motorcycles, Harleys are selling all over the world, so it isn't just us. While I admit most Harley owners own Harleys for the image, many still enjoy the riding experience of a smooth riding and comfortable bike. In addition, on a cruiser, you seem to enjoy the ride without the extreme and constant temptation of breaking the speed limit.

Harley /=/ smooth riding and comfortable bike.

They don't go, they don't stop, and they don't go around corners.

They do turn gasoline into noise pollution very well, however.

Posted: 7/17/2013 6:23:22 AM EDT

[#40]

Europeans also typically don't have the kinds of "stuff" we have that a vehicle may need to move.

Riding lawn mowers
Hay
Utv's
Hot tubs
Pontoon boats
Race cars
Home remodel supplies
Lots of guns and ammunition
Dead prostitutes
Beer
Firewood

We buy a vehicle to handle the logistics of moving such items. Europeans either don't have the space for such things or they just hire someone or rent them. A hot hatch would just be a commuter for me ANYTHING I actually DO requires a much more spacious vehicle for me.

Posted: 7/17/2013 7:00:25 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Europeans also typically don't have the kinds of "stuff" we have that a vehicle may need to move.

Riding lawn mowers
Hay
Utv's
Hot tubs
Pontoon boats
Race cars
Home remodel supplies
Lots of guns and ammunition
Dead prostitutes
Beer
Firewood

We buy a vehicle to handle the logistics of moving such items. Europeans either don't have the space for such things or they just hire someone or rent them. A hot hatch would just be a commuter for me ANYTHING I actually DO requires a much more spacious vehicle for me.

I would guess that in an overwhelming majority of instances, Americans who buy trucks that can haul that kind of stuff would have been better off financially simply renting a truck each time they actually needed to use it. Most haulers do about as much hauling as off road vehicles go off road.

Posted: 7/17/2013 7:19:51 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Huh... cars these days are faster, handle better, are safer, and more reliable than any time in history (domestic and foreign). Even "crappy" base model vehicles have twice the horsepower and much higher handling than the days of "classic" American muscle.

I guess I don't see what the complaint is. There's tons of stuff to choose from. It wasn't like back in the day there wasn't a plethora of relatively mundane transportation available. It's hard to find anything you're looking for these days from anyone for less than $30k, but there are a few out there.

+1

Any pissant car today will last 10+ years. The mainstream cars these days run as fast as the performance cars from 10-15 years ago. The fuel economy is also much better.

The 2013 Toyota Camry V6 is about as fast as a stock 99-04 Mustang GT, while the 2013-2014 Fusion Titanium EcoBoost is slower, but still respectable for a performance sedan back in the late 1990s. The Chevy Equinox / GMC Terrain / Caddy SRX has 301-308 hp from a V6 engine. That's like the output of a 1999 Mustang Cobra or a 2003 Mercury Marauder.

No its not.

1984 Honda Civic hatchback.....46 mpg with an idiot surfer/skater at the wheel. Probably could have done 50 mpg

And they could barely go uphill when full of passengers. Several modern cars today can do that, and if you count hybrids exceed that mileage--and they do it with far better safety and creature comforts. How many cars in 1984 hit 40+ MPG?

Posted: 7/17/2013 8:00:52 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The average car owner would buy a car because they think it is "cute".

Unfortunately, Americans are stupid when it comes to vehicles, but it isn't anything new by any means. If it was a new problem, we wouldn't have cars in our past like 4 cylinder Mustangs and the original Volkswagen Beetle wouldn't have been as popular as it was.

As for motorcycles, Harleys are selling all over the world, so it isn't just us. While I admit most Harley owners own Harleys for the image, many still enjoy the riding experience of a smooth riding and comfortable bike. In addition, on a cruiser, you seem to enjoy the ride without the extreme and constant temptation of breaking the speed limit.

Harley /=/ smooth riding and comfortable bike.

They don't go, they don't stop, and they don't go around corners.

They do turn gasoline into noise pollution very well, however.

All the Harleys i've ever ridden were definately smooth and really comfy, excellent interstate machines. In fact, a Heritage Softail almost made me want to give up my Thruxton. Almost....

Maybe you rode all the wrong ones?

Posted: 7/17/2013 8:22:32 AM EDT

[#44]

There's some excellent discussion happening here... I'm glad I got frustrated and went on a mini-rant yesterday.

Posted: 7/17/2013 8:46:24 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Europeans also typically don't have the kinds of "stuff" we have that a vehicle may need to move.

Riding lawn mowers
Hay
Utv's
Hot tubs
Pontoon boats
Race cars
Home remodel supplies
Lots of guns and ammunition
Dead prostitutes
Beer
Firewood

We buy a vehicle to handle the logistics of moving such items. Europeans either don't have the space for such things or they just hire someone or rent them. A hot hatch would just be a commuter for me ANYTHING I actually DO requires a much more spacious vehicle for me.

I would guess that in an overwhelming majority of instances, Americans who buy trucks that can haul that kind of stuff would have been better off financially simply renting a truck each time they actually needed to use it. Most haulers do about as much hauling as off road vehicles go off road.

This has got to be the dumbest comment of the entire thread. I'm guessing you're an early 20 something urbanite living in an apartment who doesn't actually OWN ANYTHING.

Why would I want to buy AND PAY FOR a vehicle that DOESN'T do what I need it to do AND rent one that does? How dumb would you have to be to own something that needs towed or hauled but plan on RENTING the vehicle to do it? SERIOUSLY? How does that work? "Hey baby you wanna take the boat out after work?" "Sure let me call around and rent a pickup."

Why own an AR when a handi rifle will do what you need? If you find yourself actually needing more then one shot you can just go borrow one.

Posted: 7/17/2013 9:24:06 AM EDT

[#46]

OP, I have the same feelings after I went on my Top Gear UK binge.

Posted: 7/17/2013 10:02:57 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Europeans also typically don't have the kinds of "stuff" we have that a vehicle may need to move.

Riding lawn mowers
Hay
Utv's
Hot tubs
Pontoon boats
Race cars
Home remodel supplies
Lots of guns and ammunition
Dead prostitutes
Beer
Firewood

We buy a vehicle to handle the logistics of moving such items. Europeans either don't have the space for such things or they just hire someone or rent them. A hot hatch would just be a commuter for me ANYTHING I actually DO requires a much more spacious vehicle for me.

I would guess that in an overwhelming majority of instances, Americans who buy trucks that can haul that kind of stuff would have been better off financially simply renting a truck each time they actually needed to use it. Most haulers do about as much hauling as off road vehicles go off road.

This has got to be the dumbest comment of the entire thread. I'm guessing you're an early 20 something urbanite living in an apartment who doesn't actually OWN ANYTHING.

Why would I want to buy AND PAY FOR a vehicle that DOESN'T do what I need it to do AND rent one that does? How dumb would you have to be to own something that needs towed or hauled but plan on RENTING the vehicle to do it? SERIOUSLY? How does that work? "Hey baby you wanna take the boat out after work?" "Sure let me call around and rent a pickup."

Why own an AR when a handi rifle will do what you need? If you find yourself actually needing more then one shot you can just go borrow one.

I'm actually a 16 year old transvestite living in my Mom's basement. From the view from my little basement windows, though, I see a lot of trucks that have never hauled more than a "No Fear" sticker.

Posted: 7/17/2013 10:04:03 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Europeans also typically don't have the kinds of "stuff" we have that a vehicle may need to move.

Riding lawn mowers
Hay
Utv's
Hot tubs
Pontoon boats
Race cars
Home remodel supplies
Lots of guns and ammunition
Dead prostitutes
Beer
Firewood

We buy a vehicle to handle the logistics of moving such items. Europeans either don't have the space for such things or they just hire someone or rent them. A hot hatch would just be a commuter for me ANYTHING I actually DO requires a much more spacious vehicle for me.

I would guess that in an overwhelming majority of instances, Americans who buy trucks that can haul that kind of stuff would have been better off financially simply renting a truck each time they actually needed to use it. Most haulers do about as much hauling as off road vehicles go off road.

This has got to be the dumbest comment of the entire thread. I'm guessing you're an early 20 something urbanite living in an apartment who doesn't actually OWN ANYTHING.

Why would I want to buy AND PAY FOR a vehicle that DOESN'T do what I need it to do AND rent one that does? How dumb would you have to be to own something that needs towed or hauled but plan on RENTING the vehicle to do it? SERIOUSLY? How does that work? "Hey baby you wanna take the boat out after work?" "Sure let me call around and rent a pickup."

Why own an AR when a handi rifle will do what you need? If you find yourself actually needing more then one shot you can just go borrow one.

I'd wager he's not talking about people who say, buy a boat or a trailer full of ATVs to haul around. The majority of people live in cities, and the majority of people can get by 99% of the time with a plain old car, and rent a truck for when they need it. If you only need to haul something 3-4 times a year, and generally your use is better served by something else, it doesn't make sense to have a F350 sitting in the driveway. We went down to one car, and will be getting more when our needs change. It costs me $30-40 to rent a Uhaul trailer to haul something big behind my 4Runner. Buying a crappy cargo trailer would cost me 10 rentals, likely several years of rental service, and that doesn't include the hassle of storing it, licensing it, and maintaining it.

If you're on a farm, or have a bunch of toys that necessitate a truck, then you need to buy a truck. I love trucks, I've owned plenty of them, and I've lived on acreages and farms and understand the importance of a truck. I'm working on an old one right now. But, most of the things on that list can be handled by a SUV, and most Americans aren't hauling hay, hot tubs, race cars or riding lawn mowers.

Posted: 7/17/2013 10:07:04 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Europeans also typically don't have the kinds of "stuff" we have that a vehicle may need to move.

Riding lawn mowers
Hay
Utv's
Hot tubs
Pontoon boats
Race cars
Home remodel supplies
Lots of guns and ammunition
Dead prostitutes
Beer
Firewood

We buy a vehicle to handle the logistics of moving such items. Europeans either don't have the space for such things or they just hire someone or rent them. A hot hatch would just be a commuter for me ANYTHING I actually DO requires a much more spacious vehicle for me.

I would guess that in an overwhelming majority of instances, Americans who buy trucks that can haul that kind of stuff would have been better off financially simply renting a truck each time they actually needed to use it. Most haulers do about as much hauling as off road vehicles go off road.

This has got to be the dumbest comment of the entire thread. I'm guessing you're an early 20 something urbanite living in an apartment who doesn't actually OWN ANYTHING.

Why would I want to buy AND PAY FOR a vehicle that DOESN'T do what I need it to do AND rent one that does? How dumb would you have to be to own something that needs towed or hauled but plan on RENTING the vehicle to do it? SERIOUSLY? How does that work? "Hey baby you wanna take the boat out after work?" "Sure let me call around and rent a pickup."

Why own an AR when a handi rifle will do what you need? If you find yourself actually needing more then one shot you can just go borrow one.

Congratulations, you missed his point entirely. Just because YOU use your truck that way does not negate the fact that many, many trucks never haul or tow anything of note. So their owners are paying lots of money for capabilities they never use.

Posted: 7/17/2013 10:47:27 AM EDT

[#50]

How do you guys know these trucks don't haul anything? I See people make this statement all the time, but how would you know? I have a bed cover on my truck, so how would you safely assume it's not loaded to the top with all my hunting gear, camping gear, transporting product from work, work tools, dirt, rocks, plants, or whatever....

Just because you drove by it, and it didn't have something in tow at the time doesn't mean it wont be hooked to a work trailer for 75% of it's life.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why are we Americans so backward with cars and bikes? (Page 1 of 3)

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