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Posted: 4/27/2014 12:58:49 PM EDT
I have two brown labs.

One is 7.5, owned since he was 8 weeks old. He's always been hyper and very active, never aggressive unless he's playing fetch.

Other is 3.5, owned since he was 2. Has the disposition of a lovable and retarded sloth. Never wants to do anything but lay around and sleep. Not aggressive about anything. except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.

When we got the second one, the older one quickly established dominance, there were few expected skirmishes, and all was well for a year and a half until the past couple weeks.

Out of the blue, any time the younger one lays eyes on the older one, he's trying to kill him. They both have multiple bloody wounds, though the older one is worse off. (I have bandaged the worse wounds and let them lick the minor ones)

This just started out of nowhere. And away from the older dog, the young one is his normal non aggressive lovable pussified self.

Any ideas on why they all of the sudden don't see eye to eye? A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:00:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 1:05:37 PM EDT by hightech_redneck]
Younger one trying or challenging the older for Alpha? My only guess.

I had 2 Akita's, male & Female. Female was Apha as she was our 1st, male is about 2 yrs younger.
She mothered him as a puppy, never any issues. Until they got older.

By the time they reached 6-7 yr mark, he was still big and goofy, and liked to play. She got stern. Actually cornered me coming in late one night trying to be
quiet not to wake everyone...just heard a VERY LOW growl....

Many times, she would "hit" him with a quick bite without warning or growl if he got near me or wife if she was getting companion time with us.
One day, she tore into him hard over some chicken livers I gave them, My female was only 90ish lbs..male was easy 125-130..but she fucked him up.

So, being older, and holding on to alpha lead could be the reason.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:00:44 PM EDT
Game of prison bitch gone wrong
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:04:06 PM EDT
I wish I knew, as I just went through what you are going through. Me took in an unwanted 3 yr old female blk lab and had two males aged 8 and 10. There were a few dust ups between the alpha male, but the lab established dominance after a few weeks. Recently the lab has been very aggressive to the one male, to the point of sending him to the vets for 4 hrs of work on his leg and head. Much to our daughter's heartbreak, the lab is now at the humane society as I cannot trust it free at the house.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:08:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
I have two brown labs.

...... A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
View Quote
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:10:16 PM EDT
First sentence of the first post nailed it. The younger on realizes that the older dog may be slowing a bit in their age and is challenging for dominance.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:20:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
I have two brown labs.

One is 7.5, owned since he was 8 weeks old. He's always been hyper and very active, never aggressive unless he's playing fetch.

Other is 3.5, owned since he was 2. Has the disposition of a lovable and retarded sloth. Never wants to do anything but lay around and sleep. Not aggressive about anything. except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.

When we got the second one, the older one quickly established dominance, there were few expected skirmishes, and all was well for a year and a half until the past couple weeks.

Out of the blue, any time the younger one lays eyes on the older one, he's trying to kill him. They both have multiple bloody wounds, though the older one is worse off. (I have bandaged the worse wounds and let them lick the minor ones)

This just started out of nowhere. And away from the older dog, the young one is his normal non aggressive lovable pussified self.

Any ideas on why they all of the sudden don't see eye to eye? A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
View Quote


aggressive unless he's playing fetch
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Problem #1

Not aggressive about anything. except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.
View Quote
Problem #2

Result: You have failed as pack leader and lost control (if you ever had it) of the pack.

As someone else said...this is normal behavior, sort of. But since they do not see you as pack leader they are both competing for that position now that the older one has reached that point in his life.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:27:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 1:27:27 PM EDT by mattellis2]
I agree it is a dominance thing, but it doesn't mean OP has done anything wrong. There is a whole pack hierarchy, not just alpha and everyone else.

Younger dog is not challenging OP, he's challenging the dog above him.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:34:05 PM EDT
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:40:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 1:41:32 PM EDT by Naamah]
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Originally Posted By brboyer:
Problem #1

Problem #2

Result: You have failed as pack leader and lost control (if you ever had it) of the pack.

As someone else said...this is normal behavior, sort of. But since they do not see you as pack leader they are both competing for that position now that the older one has reached that point in his life.
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Originally Posted By brboyer:
aggressive unless he's playing fetch
Problem #1

Not aggressive about anything. except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.
Problem #2

Result: You have failed as pack leader and lost control (if you ever had it) of the pack.

As someone else said...this is normal behavior, sort of. But since they do not see you as pack leader they are both competing for that position now that the older one has reached that point in his life.

Agreed. OP is not in charge of this pack, and the aggressive behavior on the part of both his dogs indicates that.

A palace coup is happening, and OP hasn't lost control. He never had it in the first place.


ETA: I would recommend getting your older dog in for a vet visit.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:45:58 PM EDT
Global warming.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 2:09:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fisherman:
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
View Quote
Well, "letting the dogs sort out", in any pack situation with humans and dogs, is asking for it.

It's the responsibility of the alpha to direct what the pack is doing, what's allowed, and what's not allowed. Depending on what kind of dogs, letting them sort things out can sometimes lead to a burial. Might be OK in the wild canines, but you seriously saying that sort of behavior is OK in domestic dogs?

Not a bad call on the med exam though, dogs hide stuff until it's often too late to help them out.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 2:16:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fisherman:
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
View Quote



very real possibility as well. Younger may "know" something medically is wrong...still comes to Alpha challenge
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 2:16:55 PM EDT
are they fixed?
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 2:23:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By czechsix:
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.
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Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
I have two brown labs.

...... A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.
kind of this,show them there place in the pack
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 2:44:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 2:44:35 PM EDT by JRCmx]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By czechsix:
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
I have two brown labs.

...... A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.

This
I've owned 13 dogs in my life and I'm the boss.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 2:49:26 PM EDT
czechsix nailed it. Be alpha, stop the behavior including being nasty about food. Living with two large male Weims. One 3 and one 9. 105 and 95 lbs.

The 3 year started that crap about 10 months ago. Not acceptable. Didn't take long for him to figure out what is acceptable to me. No fighting. No bumping. No stink eye.

Alpha up or get rid of the young dog if you are not willing to. He does not deserve to end his days this way even though it is the way nature works.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 3:09:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Naamah:

Agreed. OP is not in charge of this pack, and the aggressive behavior on the part of both his dogs indicates that.

A palace coup is happening, and OP hasn't lost control. He never had it in the first place.


ETA: I would recommend getting your older dog in for a vet visit.
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Originally Posted By Naamah:
Originally Posted By brboyer:
aggressive unless he's playing fetch
Problem #1

Not aggressive about anything. except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.
Problem #2

Result: You have failed as pack leader and lost control (if you ever had it) of the pack.

As someone else said...this is normal behavior, sort of. But since they do not see you as pack leader they are both competing for that position now that the older one has reached that point in his life.

Agreed. OP is not in charge of this pack, and the aggressive behavior on the part of both his dogs indicates that.

A palace coup is happening, and OP hasn't lost control. He never had it in the first place.


ETA: I would recommend getting your older dog in for a vet visit.

These two cover it. Exactly what I was going to say. You need to address any even minor food aggression right fast. That's where the dog starts thinking they're the pack leader... The pack leader eats first and controls the food for the others.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:16:14 PM EDT
Are both dogs male/female or a mix? If they are both males, there may be a female within smelling distance going into heat. I've seen pack dogs (namely huskies) develop sudden issues and even not eating temporarily under those circumstances.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:29:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fisherman:
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
View Quote

That's what I was wondering. One of the dogs may be sick, so take them BOTH for a checkup at the vet. We had a younger dog attack an older dog randomly, and it turned out the younger one had an infection and was feeling vulnerable.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:33:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 5:34:06 PM EDT by 2nd_amandment]
Do they get enough exercise?
The main resons why this may happen have been posted, but not much for the solutions.
One solution that works well for pretty much all dog behavior problems is to give them plenty of daily exercise.

Do any one of them get more attention than the other?
If so, the human master is the one who's promoting one's status over the other.
If that's the case try giving them equal attention.


Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:36:13 PM EDT
Brown on brown crime. Same as it ever was.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:38:01 PM EDT
Been through it twice now, when one gets old seem like pain sets in. Then will start fight and make the other want to fight more.

Sad
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:50:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
I have two brown labs.

One is 7.5, owned since he was 8 weeks old. He's always been hyper and very active, never aggressive unless he's playing fetch.

Other is 3.5, owned since he was 2. Has the disposition of a lovable and retarded sloth. Never wants to do anything but lay around and sleep. Not aggressive about anything. except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.

When we got the second one, the older one quickly established dominance, there were few expected skirmishes, and all was well for a year and a half until the past couple weeks.

Out of the blue, any time the younger one lays eyes on the older one, he's trying to kill him. They both have multiple bloody wounds, though the older one is worse off. (I have bandaged the worse wounds and let them lick the minor ones)

This just started out of nowhere. And away from the older dog, the young one is his normal non aggressive lovable pussified self.

Any ideas on why they all of the sudden don't see eye to eye? A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
View Quote

Pit bull
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:52:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By czechsix:
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.
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Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
I have two brown labs.

...... A coup by the younger one to be the alpha male?
See what the issue is here?

Here's a hint: You're not the alpha male...because the alpha simply doesn't put up with shit like this.

Go be the alpha dog.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 5:52:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
except occasionally food, and only if you try to take his while he's eating.
View Quote


You should be able to take away their food anytime, NEVER use any agression to train them into it, agression begets agressions.

Try giveing them a little bit of the food for example and hold on to the rest, when they eat the small potion they'll most likely beg for the rest, don't give it to them right away, but with some delay and in exchange for obeying a command. That's one example of non-agressive training that establishes domination.

They shouldn't think the food they get is free or if it's is a right, (like welfare people do). They should only get it as a reward for something that they do for you.

Link Posted: 4/27/2014 6:09:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By czechsix:
Well, "letting the dogs sort out", in any pack situation with humans and dogs, is asking for it.

It's the responsibility of the alpha to direct what the pack is doing, what's allowed, and what's not allowed. Depending on what kind of dogs, letting them sort things out can sometimes lead to a burial. Might be OK in the wild canines, but you seriously saying that sort of behavior is OK in domestic dogs?

Not a bad call on the med exam though, dogs hide stuff until it's often too late to help them out.
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Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
Well, "letting the dogs sort out", in any pack situation with humans and dogs, is asking for it.

It's the responsibility of the alpha to direct what the pack is doing, what's allowed, and what's not allowed. Depending on what kind of dogs, letting them sort things out can sometimes lead to a burial. Might be OK in the wild canines, but you seriously saying that sort of behavior is OK in domestic dogs?

Not a bad call on the med exam though, dogs hide stuff until it's often too late to help them out.

Where did I say it was OK? Stop attributing comments to my post that were not made. My post was about the "why" not the "fix".
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 6:10:29 PM EDT
never had that problem with my Goldens
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 7:05:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fisherman:

Where did I say it was OK? Stop attributing comments to my post that were not made. My post was about the "why" not the "fix".
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Originally Posted By fisherman:
Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
Well, "letting the dogs sort out", in any pack situation with humans and dogs, is asking for it.

It's the responsibility of the alpha to direct what the pack is doing, what's allowed, and what's not allowed. Depending on what kind of dogs, letting them sort things out can sometimes lead to a burial. Might be OK in the wild canines, but you seriously saying that sort of behavior is OK in domestic dogs?

Not a bad call on the med exam though, dogs hide stuff until it's often too late to help them out.

Where did I say it was OK? Stop attributing comments to my post that were not made. My post was about the "why" not the "fix".
"You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three." implies that this is a done deal, and a behavioral pattern that is unavoidable in domesticated dogs.

So before you get your panties bunched, read what you wrote. The way you stated it, there's no way to stop their behavior. Which is BS.

Humans have to be alpha animals to their dogs, period. Don't care what breed, how many, how old or whatever.


Link Posted: 4/27/2014 7:45:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 7:49:07 PM EDT by fisherman]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By czechsix:
"You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three." implies that this is a done deal, and a behavioral pattern that is unavoidable in domesticated dogs.

So before you get your panties bunched, read what you wrote. The way you stated it, there's no way to stop their behavior. Which is BS.

Humans have to be alpha animals to their dogs, period. Don't care what breed, how many, how old or whatever.


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Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Originally Posted By czechsix:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Dogs come preprogrammed to make damn right sure there is a line of succession. My guess it would be a good idea too take the old dog for a serious medical exam. The younger dog may be sensing cancer or another illness in advance of your noticing it.

Also I don't think I agree with the comment that the problem is you are not alpha and that is why this started. You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three.
Well, "letting the dogs sort out", in any pack situation with humans and dogs, is askindg for it.

It's the responsibility of the alpha to direct what the pack is doing, what's allowed, and what's not allowed. Depending on what kind of dogs, letting them sort things out can sometimes lead to a burial. Might be OK in the wild canines, but you seriously saying that sort of behavior is OK in domestic dogs?

Not a bad call on the med exam though, dogs hide stuff until it's often too late to help them out.

Where did I say it was OK? Stop attributing comments to my post that were not made. My post was about the "why" not the "fix".
"You may or may not be alpha for your pack but the dogs are sorting out what they are gonna to sort out for position two and three." implies that this is a done deal, and a behavioral pattern that is unavoidable in domesticated dogs.

So before you get your panties bunched, read what you wrote. The way you stated it, there's no way to stop their behavior. Which is BS.

Humans have to be alpha animals to their dogs, period. Don't care what breed, how many, how old or whatever.


Before I respond I'm going to need to know a little more about you, how long you've been training and what breeds of dogs you have had under the same roof living with you, training with you etc at the same time.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 7:55:52 PM EDT
52
Male
Grew up on a ranch
Worked as a field archaeological tech for some years, pretty much always had the ridgeback with me in the field.
Had GSD's, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Plott Hounds, Yellow Labradors, Corgis, Chihuahuas, Dachshunds, Airedale Terriers, Pharaoh Hounds, Grayhounds, and some other muttly types. Family has shown Pharaoh Hounds, Grayhounds, etc.

Spent 12 years in retail/wholesale pet trade, to include grooming, breeding, sales in both retail and wholesale.

Your turn. Feel free to PM if you'd like.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 7:59:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:
Younger one trying or challenging the older for Alpha? My only guess.
View Quote


Link Posted: 4/27/2014 8:31:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By czechsix:
52
Male
Grew up on a ranch
Worked as a field archaeological tech for some years, pretty much always had the ridgeback with me in the field.
Had GSD's, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Plott Hounds, Yellow Labradors, Corgis, Chihuahuas, Dachshunds, Airedale Terriers, Pharaoh Hounds, Grayhounds, and some other muttly types. Family has shown Pharaoh Hounds, Grayhounds, etc.

Spent 12 years in retail/wholesale pet trade, to include grooming, breeding, sales in both retail and wholesale.

Your turn. Feel free to PM if you'd like.
View Quote

Will do but it may be tomorrow. Take care and we well talk more.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 8:49:02 PM EDT
They are competing for the Alpha spot in the pack since the one they are in doesn't currently have one. Change that.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 9:01:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:
Younger one trying or challenging the older for Alpha? My only guess.

I had 2 Akita's, male & Female. Female was Apha as she was our 1st, male is about 2 yrs younger.
She mothered him as a puppy, never any issues. Until they got older.

By the time they reached 6-7 yr mark, he was still big and goofy, and liked to play. She got stern. Actually cornered me coming in late one night trying to be
quiet not to wake everyone...just heard a VERY LOW growl....

Many times, she would "hit" him with a quick bite without warning or growl if he got near me or wife if she was getting companion time with us.
One day, she tore into him hard over some chicken livers I gave them, My female was only 90ish lbs..male was easy 125-130..but she fucked him up.

So, being older, and holding on to alpha lead could be the reason.
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Responses like yours show why the whole "Alpha" concept with domestic dogs is fucking retarded. By letting one dog be Alpha over the other, you have shown the dogs that you have no control.

You and OP didn't establish proper boundaries with your dogs, and let the dogs be dogs amongst themselves. In a domestic situation, it's never OK for dog's to fight out rank order, or at any time attempt to.

Any attempt at dogs fighting, or attempting to show dominance over another should be dealt with by separating the dogs from the situation, and re creating the situation in a way that YOU as an owner are in control.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 9:02:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bigred1001:
I wish I knew, as I just went through what you are going through. Me took in an unwanted 3 yr old female blk lab and had two males aged 8 and 10. There were a few dust ups between the alpha male, but the lab established dominance after a few weeks. Recently the lab has been very aggressive to the one male, to the point of sending him to the vets for 4 hrs of work on his leg and head. Much to our daughter's heartbreak, the lab is now at the humane society as I cannot trust it free at the house.
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Why the fuck do you let your dogs fight in the first place?

As the handler, you should be on scene for all interactions with the new dog to prevent any behavior like that. Your vet bills show that your dogs control the dog world, and you just exist in it.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 9:06:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mattellis2:
I agree it is a dominance thing, but it doesn't mean OP has done anything wrong. There is a whole pack hierarchy, not just alpha and everyone else.

Younger dog is not challenging OP, he's challenging the dog above him.
View Quote


OP though should be leader, and he should be able to step in and let the dogs know that their behavior isn't acceptable. I've never had a fight amongst dogs in my house, even with strays I've brought in, and my GSD is very unfriendly to dogs.

It's all about if your dog respects you as a handler, and trusts that you won't let harm come to them.
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