Why are Bush's miltary records under a microscope?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why are Bush's miltary records under a microscope? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:09:37 PM EDT

I just saw a headline on Yahoo.com about missing records in Bush's ANG service. To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, Bush has released all of his military records including pay stubs and dental office visits

Why is NOBODY asking John Kerry to release his military records. He has released only the ones that makes him look good. The Swiftboat Veterans have repeatedly called for Form 180 (I have to admit I don't know what that is) and Kerry basically says, "Fuck You. I'm not releasing them"

There needs to be a serious call for Kerry to release all of his records just as Bush has

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:19:00 PM EDT

[#1]

I don't think Bush's military record makes much of s difference this time around, he's a known quanity as a military commander. Kerry's the one with the uphill battle to convince people that a modern, lefty Democrat can be a strong military leader, much less one who turned on the military after he left active service.

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:27:30 PM EDT

[#2]

Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:29:52 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

and then he stabbed his fellow sailors in the back.

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:33:38 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I don't think Bush's military record makes much of s difference this time around, he's a known quanity as a military commander. Kerry's the one with the uphill battle to convince people that a modern, lefty Democrat can be a strong military leader, much less one who turned on the military after he left active service.

I agree - but this is fueled by the claim GWB and Cheney are "chicken hawks" - folks that never served but are willing to send others to fight.

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:39:37 PM EDT

[#5]

the way I understand it yes Bush's connections probably helped him get into the guard to become a pilot but he was a damn good pilot and volunteered for vietnam.

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:47:47 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.

Posted: 9/5/2004 3:53:41 PM EDT

[#7]

...to get attention off Kerry's military record.

Posted: 9/5/2004 4:04:59 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.

+1

What I am hearing is that they (whoever they are) are claiming that there *should* be records in GW's file regarding an investigation into his *not* taking his flight physical. What they don't mention is that GW didn't have any say either way into wheather that investigation was conducted or not. Of course, for the tin-foil hat brigade, that won't make a difference.

Posted: 9/5/2004 4:08:43 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.

DING DING DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Posted: 9/5/2004 5:45:20 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.

Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Posted: 9/5/2004 5:50:55 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.

Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

I take it your are voting for the "war hero".

Posted: 9/5/2004 5:52:56 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.

DING DING DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Gets my vote.

Posted: 9/5/2004 5:55:06 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Exept for these ones, the type of aircraft the president flew. If I remember right they were withdrawn from the theater when the threat of a NV air raid into the south was seen as unlikely.

Posted: 9/5/2004 5:58:18 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I take it your are voting for the "war hero".

Not at all. Just making an observation. I read something on this a while back that Bush's particular jets by and large were not being utilized in the war zone; of any combat model, supposidly his was the one least likely to be flown over there. I see someone else has posted something in the thread which may contradict that, so I'll read it and maybe get back to you.

Posted: 9/5/2004 5:59:41 PM EDT

[#15]

What I remember right about air frame selection, especially for the ANG, the student pilot has very little say in what they fiy.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:00:53 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.
Exept for these ones, the type of aircraft the president flew. If I remember right they were withdrawn from the theater when the threat of a NV air raid into the south was seen as unlikely.

See what I posted above. Wish I could dig up the article on this I read a while ago; it made a pretty well reasoned argument that Bush trained on the aircraft least likely to be deployed into the combat zone.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:01:03 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

For me, it's NOT about what Kerry did IN Vietnam. BUT, what he did AFTER he came back, those things he said to the Senate in '71, that testimony was used by the enemy against our POW's.... THAT says ALL I need to know about the man's character and fitness to sit behind the big desk in the Oval Office.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:03:54 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.
Exept for these ones, the type of aircraft the president flew. If I remember right they were withdrawn from the theater when the threat of a NV air raid into the south was seen as unlikely.

See what I posted above. Wish I could dig up the article on this I read a while ago; it made a pretty well reasoned argument that Bush trained on the aircraft least likely to be deployed into the combat zone.

As far as I am concerned, it is all irrelevant. Nevermind Kerry's questionable service in 'nam, what he did after he got home removes any and all consideration about him going to 'nam and GWB not going. It has nothing to do with it. Kerry's treason and lack of character, plus his lying about those that were still there, or had been there, is enough for me.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:18:53 PM EDT

[#19]

because the dem's are grasping at straws to try to win the election.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:26:48 PM EDT

[#20]

Because Kerry isn't a draft dodging piece of shit like Klinton it's now an issue.
When Klinton was up against Bush 1, who was a really heroic guy during WWII it wasn't an issue because the Dems didn't want it to be. Now it is.

Posted: 9/5/2004 6:45:10 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do. hr

Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Of course, the fact that the 147th (Bush's unit) being deployed to the RVN from 1962-1969 matters not, eh? The unit lost 15 pilots there. The F-102 was called the most dangerous jet fighter ever deployed, by the man who wrote "The Right Stuff". Out of 875 made, 279 crashed or were lost in action. A total of 70 pilots were KIA in that model.

What the media is ignoring is the testimony of the men in his TANG unit who say Bush flew at least twice a week while he was there. He was rated as one of the top 5% of F-102 pilots. Flying a fighter is not an easy job, and is a very good way to get yourself killed in an accident. But I huess you are so skilled tcsd, that fluying jets is mere piffle.

Posted: 9/5/2004 7:01:33 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.

Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Of course, the fact that the 147th (Bush's unit) being deployed to the RVN from 1962-1969 matters not, eh? The unit lost 15 pilots there. The F-102 was called the most dangerous jet fighter ever deployed, by the man who wrote "The Right Stuff". Out of 875 made, 279 crashed or were lost in action. A total of 70 pilots were KIA in that model.

What the media is ignoring is the testimony of the men in his TANG unit who say Bush flew at least twice a week while he was there. He was rated as one of the top 5% of F-102 pilots. Flying a fighter is not an easy job, and is a very good way to get yourself killed in an accident. But I huess you are so skilled tcsd, that fluying jets is mere piffle.

Don't bother arguing with tcsd1236 -- he won't listen to you, since he thinks he's always right. Probably comes from his career as a JBT

Of course....EVERYONE around here thinks they're always right as well, disregard the above

Posted: 9/5/2004 8:09:46 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.

Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Wrong. F102s were deployed to Vietnam. 1st US fighter downed was an F102. There was a deployment of ANG F102s to Vietnam that GWB (along with 3 squadron mates) volunteered for, but he was rejected on the spot because he had less than 500 hrs flight time. 2 of the 4 ended up in Vietnam.

The F102 was a lousy plane for use there, no bombing capability, and not good enough dog fighter. It was a interceptor craft, for chasing Soviet Bombers.

Posted: 9/5/2004 8:14:07 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.

Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.

Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Of course, the fact that the 147th (Bush's unit) being deployed to the RVN from 1962-1969 matters not, eh?

Which would mean since GWB signed up in '68, it was to join a deployed unit, however it came back to Texas while GWB was still in advanced training.

Posted: 9/5/2004 8:51:58 PM EDT

[#25]

Myth Buster time (again).

President Bush flew the F-102.

He was assigned to the 111th Fighter Squadron out of Ellington Field, Texas.

The 111th FS is part of the 147th Fighter Wing.

The 111th FS was an interceptor squadron.
In August 1960 the unit became one of the first to transition to the F-102A all-weather fighter interceptor and began a 24-hour alert to guard the Texas Gulf coast.

Neither the 111th FS or the 147th FW went to Vietnam.

The only F-102 squadrons that went to Vietnam were the 82nd and 509th Fighter Interceptor Squadrons, from Naha AB, Okinawa and Clark AB, Philippines respectivly.

There was a program called "Palace Alert" that took pilots from ANG units to cycle through the above mentioned squadrons (augment).
President Bush asked to do a Palace Alert rotation but was told that he did not have enough hours in the F-102 to participate, and that the Palace Alert program was ending.

By the time President Bush was a qualified F-102 pilot the F-102 the 111th FS had stopped flying 24 hour alert missions as its primary mission and had taken over as the training command for all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty.

Sources:
home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_1.html

home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_2.html

www.txelli.ang.af.mil/index2.html

www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/147fw.htm

www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/111fs.htm

www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=002181;p=0

www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031773659263&path=!news&s=1045855934842

Posted: 9/5/2004 9:01:38 PM EDT