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Posted: 9/5/2004 2:09:37 PM EST
I just saw a headline on Yahoo.com about missing records in Bush's ANG service. To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, Bush has released all of his military records including pay stubs and dental office visits

Why is NOBODY asking John Kerry to release his military records. He has released only the ones that makes him look good. The Swiftboat Veterans have repeatedly called for Form 180 (I have to admit I don't know what that is) and Kerry basically says, "Fuck You. I'm not releasing them"

There needs to be a serious call for Kerry to release all of his records just as Bush has
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:19:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:27:30 PM EST
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:29:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



and then he stabbed his fellow sailors in the back.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:33:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I don't think Bush's military record makes much of s difference this time around, he's a known quanity as a military commander. Kerry's the one with the uphill battle to convince people that a modern, lefty Democrat can be a strong military leader, much less one who turned on the military after he left active service.



I agree - but this is fueled by the claim GWB and Cheney are "chicken hawks" - folks that never served but are willing to send others to fight.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:39:37 PM EST
the way I understand it yes Bush's connections probably helped him get into the guard to become a pilot but he was a damn good pilot and volunteered for vietnam.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:47:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:53:41 PM EST
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:04:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 3:05:27 PM EST by Kahiel]

Originally Posted By Offspring:
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.



+1

What I am hearing is that they (whoever they are) are claiming that there *should* be records in GW's file regarding an investigation into his *not* taking his flight physical. What they don't mention is that GW didn't have any say either way into wheather that investigation was conducted or not. Of course, for the tin-foil hat brigade, that won't make a difference.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:08:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Offspring:
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.




DING DING DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:45:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.



Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:50:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.



Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.



I take it your are voting for the "war hero".
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:52:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By NAM:

Originally Posted By Offspring:
...to get attention off Kerry's military record.


DING DING DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!


Gets my vote.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:55:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Exept for these ones, the type of aircraft the president flew. If I remember right they were withdrawn from the theater when the threat of a NV air raid into the south was seen as unlikely.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:58:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
I take it your are voting for the "war hero".


Not at all. Just making an observation. I read something on this a while back that Bush's particular jets by and large were not being utilized in the war zone; of any combat model, supposidly his was the one least likely to be flown over there. I see someone else has posted something in the thread which may contradict that, so I'll read it and maybe get back to you.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:59:41 PM EST
What I remember right about air frame selection, especially for the ANG, the student pilot has very little say in what they fiy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:00:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Exept for these ones, the type of aircraft the president flew. If I remember right they were withdrawn from the theater when the threat of a NV air raid into the south was seen as unlikely.


See what I posted above. Wish I could dig up the article on this I read a while ago; it made a pretty well reasoned argument that Bush trained on the aircraft least likely to be deployed into the combat zone.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:01:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



For me, it's NOT about what Kerry did IN Vietnam. BUT, what he did AFTER he came back, those things he said to the Senate in '71, that testimony was used by the enemy against our POW's.... THAT says ALL I need to know about the man's character and fitness to sit behind the big desk in the Oval Office.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:03:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.

Exept for these ones, the type of aircraft the president flew. If I remember right they were withdrawn from the theater when the threat of a NV air raid into the south was seen as unlikely.


See what I posted above. Wish I could dig up the article on this I read a while ago; it made a pretty well reasoned argument that Bush trained on the aircraft least likely to be deployed into the combat zone.



As far as I am concerned, it is all irrelevant. Nevermind Kerry's questionable service in 'nam, what he did after he got home removes any and all consideration about him going to 'nam and GWB not going. It has nothing to do with it. Kerry's treason and lack of character, plus his lying about those that were still there, or had been there, is enough for me.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:18:53 PM EST
because the dem's are grasping at straws to try to win the election.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:26:48 PM EST
Because Kerry isn't a draft dodging piece of shit like Klinton it's now an issue.
When Klinton was up against Bush 1, who was a really heroic guy during WWII it wasn't an issue because the Dems didn't want it to be. Now it is.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:45:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do. hr


Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.



Of course, the fact that the 147th (Bush's unit) being deployed to the RVN from 1962-1969 matters not, eh? The unit lost 15 pilots there. The F-102 was called the most dangerous jet fighter ever deployed, by the man who wrote "The Right Stuff". Out of 875 made, 279 crashed or were lost in action. A total of 70 pilots were KIA in that model.

What the media is ignoring is the testimony of the men in his TANG unit who say Bush flew at least twice a week while he was there. He was rated as one of the top 5% of F-102 pilots. Flying a fighter is not an easy job, and is a very good way to get yourself killed in an accident. But I huess you are so skilled tcsd, that fluying jets is mere piffle.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:01:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.



Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.



Of course, the fact that the 147th (Bush's unit) being deployed to the RVN from 1962-1969 matters not, eh? The unit lost 15 pilots there. The F-102 was called the most dangerous jet fighter ever deployed, by the man who wrote "The Right Stuff". Out of 875 made, 279 crashed or were lost in action. A total of 70 pilots were KIA in that model.

What the media is ignoring is the testimony of the men in his TANG unit who say Bush flew at least twice a week while he was there. He was rated as one of the top 5% of F-102 pilots. Flying a fighter is not an easy job, and is a very good way to get yourself killed in an accident. But I huess you are so skilled tcsd, that fluying jets is mere piffle.



Don't bother arguing with tcsd1236 -- he won't listen to you, since he thinks he's always right. Probably comes from his career as a JBT


Of course....EVERYONE around here thinks they're always right as well, disregard the above
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:09:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:10:47 PM EST by Lord_Grey_Boots]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.



Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.



Wrong. F102s were deployed to Vietnam. 1st US fighter downed was an F102. There was a deployment of ANG F102s to Vietnam that GWB (along with 3 squadron mates) volunteered for, but he was rejected on the spot because he had less than 500 hrs flight time. 2 of the 4 ended up in Vietnam.

The F102 was a lousy plane for use there, no bombing capability, and not good enough dog fighter. It was a interceptor craft, for chasing Soviet Bombers.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:14:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
Why? Because its generally viewed that Bush used his NG service to escape going to VN. Kerry, even if his tour was ended prematurely, at least went.



Yup, flying those fighter jets is probably the safest thing someone could do.



Jets that had a zero chance of being deployed to a combat zone.



Of course, the fact that the 147th (Bush's unit) being deployed to the RVN from 1962-1969 matters not, eh?




Which would mean since GWB signed up in '68, it was to join a deployed unit, however it came back to Texas while GWB was still in advanced training.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:51:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 9:13:52 AM EST by KA3B]
Myth Buster time (again).

President Bush flew the F-102.

He was assigned to the 111th Fighter Squadron out of Ellington Field, Texas.

The 111th FS is part of the 147th Fighter Wing.

The 111th FS was an interceptor squadron.
In August 1960 the unit became one of the first to transition to the F-102A all-weather fighter interceptor and began a 24-hour alert to guard the Texas Gulf coast.

Neither the 111th FS or the 147th FW went to Vietnam.

The only F-102 squadrons that went to Vietnam were the 82nd and 509th Fighter Interceptor Squadrons, from Naha AB, Okinawa and Clark AB, Philippines respectivly.

There was a program called "Palace Alert" that took pilots from ANG units to cycle through the above mentioned squadrons (augment).
President Bush asked to do a Palace Alert rotation but was told that he did not have enough hours in the F-102 to participate, and that the Palace Alert program was ending.

By the time President Bush was a qualified F-102 pilot the F-102 the 111th FS had stopped flying 24 hour alert missions as its primary mission and had taken over as the training command for all F-102 pilots in the US for Air National Guard duty.

Sources:
home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_1.html

home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_2.html

www.txelli.ang.af.mil/index2.html

www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/147fw.htm

www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/111fs.htm

www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=002181;p=0

www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031773659263&path=!news&s=1045855934842
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:01:38 PM EST
bump
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:04:20 PM EST

Why are Bush's miltary records under a microscope?


because they're virtually nonexistant and invisible to the naked eye.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:25:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
But I guess you are so skilled tcsd, that flying jets is mere piffle.



Originally posted by Fanof the blackrifle:Don't bother arguing with tcsd1236 -- he won't listen to you, since he thinks he's always right. Probably comes from his career as a JBT


Why are you guys making this so personal? have I made any personal claims of any expertise flying? Hmmm? Does every post I make on any topic have to come back to my job? HMMM ....Wonder why I bother posting on any topic not relating to LE. I see that K38 has posted additional information corroborating what I said, but you guys are now suddenly silent...hhhmmmmmmm...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:33:18 AM EST
Not really, it proves that type of air frame from the NG was sent to VN prior to the Pres joining (meaning it could have happen in a later date). Also doesn't address how pilots are assigned the aircraft type they are, most don't have a say they end up flying what the military wants them to fly (here is a clue ask about ever pilot who flies a cargo plan and ask him what he wanted to fly when he joined, I can almost guarantee he won't say a C130 or C5).

Also it seems most who discuss the Presidents military record don't seem to know allot about how the military or NG function specifically how drill points and AT govern if someone had a sat year or not.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:39:03 AM EST
Ahh, screw both of them Kerry and Bush. We have 290,000,000 and these are the best we have to offer.

Some times I cry at night
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 4:00:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By STLRN:
Also it seems most who discuss the Presidents military record don't seem to know allot about how the military or NG function specifically how drill points and AT govern if someone had a sat year or not.



Well, the drill point thing is a valid point; when we were deployed to help the ANG last year, my Army Guard guys were amazed to find out that an Air Guardsman can schedule in an entire years worth of drills consecutively in one fell swoop. To my guys who have to do the one drill a month and two weeks in the summer, and that drill inevitably falls right on the weekend when some other thing or things is going on in your life, the ability to schedule a years worth of drills , get them out of the way and then get on with the rest of your life is the kind of quality of life thing that will drive many of my guys to go Blue when their current enlistments are up.

I don't expect anyone who has not been in the military to understand the military; one reason why I support the idea of mandatory national service, so that more people would have tat foundation of knowledge when they discuss military issues. Of course, the very liberals who need that knowledge the most would be the ones taking advantage of whatever waiver system would be in place, so they wouldn't have that knowledge after all......
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 4:05:17 AM EST
You actually can in any reserve or NG do all your point at one time or at your convenience, but its up to your CO to sign off on it. Some wil some won't.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 4:55:57 AM EST
In the army guard you can even get annual training or drill waived. I got an entire summer off for the first year of law school just by asking. (1/4 of the Michigan law school class starts in the summer)
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 5:39:56 AM EST
Bush's records also don't show what the liberals hoped they would--they seem to show he did his guard duty as expected, and if anything put in more time than required.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:31:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By STLRN:
You actually can in any reserve or NG do all your point at one time or at your convenience, but its up to your CO to sign off on it. Some wil some won't.



Actually, in the Army Guard, the policy for SUTAs is a 90 day window around the scheduled drill date. I have heard from some of the Alaska guys that due to weather conditions their units will string together a few MUTA 10's and 12's so people don't hafve to drill during the worst months of the year, but I have never heard of an Army Guard unit that let you srting a whole years worth of MUTAs and AT together into one long drill the way the Air Guard apparently can.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:49:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
Ahh, screw both of them Kerry and Bush. We have 290,000,000 and these are the best we have to offer.

Some times I cry at night



+1
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:09:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
...he's a known quanity as a military commander....



The greatest since Napoleon.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:26:22 AM EST
they should have been completed and released years ago, if only in the interest of laying this issue to rest!! GW may realize that he didn't go the the varsity team and he was on the JV team, but Cheney--I didn't know that he had 5 defferments, and my only brother served!!
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:27:49 AM EST
The fuck if I am backing you up jackass.

Not one fucking stateside F-102 squadron went to Vietnam.

By your way of thinking every last swinging dick, from the commanding officer to the newest recruit that was in the stateside F-102 program was using F-102 service to get out of Vietnam.

Go fuck yourself asshole, there were other missions that were required to be done other than going to Vietnam.

There are plenty of people in the reserve military who didn't step one foot outside of the USA during WWII, Korea, GW1 and GW2. Do you also paint them with your fucking crayon that they used the reserves to stay out of combat?

Fuck off asshole.



Originally Posted By tcsd1236:
I see that K38 has posted additional information corroborating what I said, but you guys are now suddenly silent...hhhmmmmmmm...

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:28:43 AM EST
I heard on the radio this morning that the Pentagon was going to have a non-partisan research group explore all of Kerry's medals and citations due to claims made by the Swift boat guys.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:47:26 AM EST
don't cover my ass numb-nuts..i can see you never served in any way, wannabe!!
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:53:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:59:15 AM EST
yep, kerry went to war ..bush did't.....clinton and cheyney deferred. it's pretty easy to judge who stood behid beliefs.. bush and kerry are skull&bones..etc yada,yada,yada...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:18:05 AM EST
More on F-102's in Vietnam from a website.

On a side note , 2 years ago some hunters found an intact 102 canopy from an ejection / crash in N. Idaho and brought it in and gave it too our Unit thinking it was from one of our 102's but it was from a Montana? ANG plane. They researched the tail # on the canopy and the pilot was still alive and lived in W. Washinton. Except for the plexiglass being hazed and sheared hinge pins it was in excellent shape...

[ A few Pacific-based squadrons got F-102s, the first being the 16th FIS based at Naha AFB on Okinawa which re-equipped in March of 1959. It was in the Pacific theatre that the F-102 was to achieve its only taste of combat. Aircraft from the 590th Fighter Interceptor Squadron were transferred to Tan Son Nhut AFB near Saigon in South Vietnam in March of 1962 to provide air defense against the unlikely event that North Vietnamese aircraft would attack the South. F-102As continued to be based there and in Thailand throughout much of the Vietnam war. F-102As stood alert at Bien Hoa and Da Nang in Sout Vietnam and at Udorn and Don Muang in Thailand. The F-102A was finally withdrawn from Southeast Asia in December of 1969. The F-102A established an excellent safety record in Vietnam. In almost ten years of flying air defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, only 15 F-102As were lost. Although a few missions were flown over North Vietnam, the Southeast Asia-stationed F-102As are not thought to have actually engaged in air-to-air combat. However, one of my references has an F-102A of the 509th FIS being lost to an air-to-air missile fired by a MiG-21 while flying a CAP over Route Package IV on February 3, 1968. Two F-102As were lost to AAA/small arms fire and four were destroyed on the ground by the Viet Cong and eight were lost in operational accidents.

Strange as it may seem, the F-102A actually did fly some close-support missions over the South, even though the aircraft was totally unsuited for this role. These operations started in 1965 at Tan Son Nhut using the 405 FW alert detachment. Operating under the code-name "Project Stovepipe", they used their heat sinking Falcon missiles to lock onto heat sources over the Ho Chi Minh trail at night, often Viet Cong campfires. This was more of a harassment tactic than it was serious assault. They would even fire their radar-guided missiles if their radars managed to lock onto something. The pilots were never sure if they actually hit anything, but they would sometimes observe secondary explosions.
]
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:21:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 8:36:47 AM EST by Johnny_Reno]
I think it's fair to examine both of the candidate's records.

For GWB, I'm disappointed that at one time in his life, he received a DUI.

For Kerry, I'm disappointed that at one time in his life, he betrayed his fellow servicemembers and his nation.


Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:22:31 AM EST
Tangeant, spot on!! KA3B still wanna be...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:24:00 AM EST
johnny-reno, +1
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:27:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 8:32:35 AM EST by brasspile]
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:01:07 AM EST
No, not a vote-call...i'll excercise my right to privacy. but let me guess, someone who showed up for work everyday versus someone who didn't/couldn't and should have. I voted for him the first time around, just where was he and what was he doing when he didn't report in? rumor has it that was due to his admitted drinking problem in his past. any comments?
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:04:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 9:06:36 AM EST by WSAR15]
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