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Posted: 5/21/2001 2:57:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 3:41:50 AM EDT
Sweep, While I understand, and I personally use the Jews in Nazi Germany as a PRIME example of gun control at its pinnacle, you have issues to face/deal with FIRST... I believe biblically the phrase is something about taking the mote out of YOUR eye before taking the beam out of your brothers eye. I am in Seattle. IIRC, The Jewish 'Temple' (hope I got THAT term right) sponsored/housed a HUGE anti movement here. Them of all people I was AMAZED.... As you know, not all Jews agree, like not all Pro Gun group members agree. As A (check this out) BLACK REPUBLICAN (MAJOR quadruple minority in Seattle) I explain gun control in terms of the holocaust AND slavery. With the underlyng point obvious. However obvious, the Jews AND Blacks STILL insist on giving their votes AND money to the DemoKommies. I agree the line is drawn, but I would urge you NOT TO go hardcore anti-pro gun...... An enemy of the anti gunners enemy (NRA) IS the antis gunnners friend....(puts you in the rack with Rosie..what a picture!)
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 4:10:38 AM EDT
What's the old sayng? "Don't let the perfect stand in the way of the good." Slowing the slippery ride is a good thing. Maybe even necessary to the eventual reversing. We'd all like to see the miserable, ineffective laws go away, but they're not going to, no matter how hard we hold our breath & turn blue. Half a step forward beats four steps forward. Norm
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 4:31:02 AM EDT
I agree with Norm, while not perfect, they have done more for us than GOA or any other group.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 6:07:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 6:30:59 AM EDT
Sweep, Do you get the NRA's new magazine, "First Freedom?" I am an Endowment Life Member of the NRA and over the years I, too, have been frustrated with the tactical moves they have had to make. I truly believe that they do the best they can with what they have and sometimes this looks like they are not as hard core as I would like for them to be. The new magazine has given me some hope, though. Articles about Nazi Germany, the UN, etc., are more consistent with my view of NRA's role at this point. I am a member of GOA and JFPO, too. They do a good job of driving a stake in the ground out there where it needs to be. However, when it comes to the power to destroy our enemies and reward our friends, the NRA is the only game in town. "God favors the heavy divisions."
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 6:57:45 AM EDT
Even though they are the #1 lobby group, they must still walk the fine line of PR. As it stands, they have 4.5M members out of 300M citizens, or about 1.5% of the population. The small percentage is not a strong indication of popular interest. They could do alot more with 10%-20% of the population, the way it should be. With only 4.5M members, they are as popular and vocal as Nader's Green party.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 7:13:16 AM EDT
I totally agree with you, the NRA is doing far less than they should to help their members. However, I am a life member because I would rather be counted as one of them than referred to as the "silent majority" who seem to all be in favor of giving the country back to england so we can confiscate all the guns and enact more strict socialist measures to deal with the jump in crime that results.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 7:30:54 AM EDT
For us to forsake an ally, a friend with common interests and goals, is wrong. Their goals are to stem the tide. But frankly, many more people can understand being part of the NRA, than the JPFO, and GOA. An entry point for anyone is into the NRA, with America's First Freedom magazine being listed, and then from there, you add in more. Each different group has their own focus, and their own benefits. I personally see the NRA as an educational tool and organization. They have trained my son, they have certified a number of people I know as instructors (I'va gotta get the time to do this), and they still promote, above all, gun safety, but not at the neglect of our 2nd Amendment rights. Besides Rosie, Gore, Lieberman, and the rest all hate the NRA. That's good enough for now!
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 7:41:57 AM EDT
Size does matter. Especially when it comes to political power and getting things the way we want. I don't agree with everything the NRA does, but all-in-all they do more to support our rights then any other group. When you drop support of the NRA to fund smaller groups you take some of the money. Money buys power, especially in DC. A large collective organization that represents 4million people is better than 1000 small groups representing 100 people each.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 7:43:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2001 7:45:30 AM EDT by DJbump]
For those who constantly repeat the 'Join The NRA, It's Our Only Hope' mantra, here's my opinion. If the NRA is our only hope, we have lost. With A man at their head who doesn't believe folks should own semiauto rifles, and an org as a whole with less backbone than a jellyfish, the battle is lost--if in fact that were the case. WHatever happened to the folks with the unflappable ability to NOT GIVE THESE FUCKERS ONE INCH, and stand firm in their convictions? I have heard it said that we are mental and moral midgets compared to our forefathers. If our "leadership" is any indication, then that is certainly the case. Fuck trying to make our message palatable to the soccer moms, and other anti-gunners. I am of the opinion that if I am the very last gun-owning individual out there, then I will try my damndest to win the war by myself. There are others like me, and that comforts me, I just wish we didn't have these wimps in charge of organizations that are held as 'our only hope'. Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. -- Senator Barry Goldwater "For so long as a hundred of us remain alive, we will never in any degree be subject to the Dominion of the English, since it is not for Glory, or Riches, or Honor we fight, but for Liberty Alone which no Good man loses but with his Life." Declaration of Arbroath 1320 AD. "When it comes time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home. -- Chief Aupumut, Mohican 1725.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 8:32:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2001 8:32:47 AM EDT by MG_ME]
[left]there are more forces in this world more than what our government is trying to do to us. U.N. for example! Here's the way I look at this we may be facing a ban on Semi auto's next this include's AR15'/AK's I get into it with people they tell me [b]"You Do not really Need a Semi Automatic"[/b]I really do not get this; we are fighting for our right's, and yet so called gun people make excuses's we do not have a right to own certain thing's you/me/and the NRA are wasting our breath. My way of thinking is save your breath because it does not matter. Be prepared to do with what you have.[/left]
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 9:05:48 AM EDT
the problem with comprimise is the only way the antis will comprimise if they get something out of the deal when we comprimise we lose! and thats why i keep rethinking the NRA alot lately. look at Project excile u know all those people that have stuff up in the attic they didnt know was illegal well of to jail with em or the guy that bought a "preban" from a shoddy dealer that had just slapped a pre uppper on a post lower well hes screwed.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 9:52:47 AM EDT
The reason why you don't see the NRA coming out and stating the TRUE reason for the 2nd Amendment (the closest was LaPierre's "it isn't about duck hunting") is that such a declaration would upset the "highbrow shooters" with their $15,000 shotguns and $10,000 target rifles that make most of the big contributions and life memberships. The NRA wants to appear "main stream" and does not want people like Neal Knox rocking the boat.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 10:02:28 AM EDT
Like it or not, the NRA has done more for gun owners than the GAO, JPFO, 2nd Amendment Foundation, and all the other "pro-gun" groups combined. You might not like all of the positions (I certainly don't!) but every gun owner in the country should be a member of the NRA first, and other groups second.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 10:10:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2001 10:11:22 AM EDT by MG_ME]
[left]Darm11: this is true but what get's me is why do you need a Semi auto is disturbing. It is inappropriate to own a AK47, I get this a lot "you do not need a Semi automatic" this pisses me the [B]FUCK OFF[/b] I do not go into there house and tell them what the fuck they can and cannot own.[/left]
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 11:04:19 AM EDT
If the NRA doesn't believe that we should have semi-autos as some of you claim, then why have their been no less than 3 articles featuring the AR15 in the last 6 months in the American Rifleman magazine or why do they give so much coverage to the Nationl Matches at Camp Perry where semi-autos are predominant? I don't like everything about the NRA either, but like it or not, they are the most effective voice we have. Maybe if some of you fence sitters and critics would get off of your cheap, lazy, whiny asses and help the cause the NRA would have even greater authority when speaking and acting on our behalf. No one would dare fuck with us if we hade 25-30 million members. Do those of us who are trying to be part of the solution a favor and don't bitch from the sidelines.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 11:07:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 12:17:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DJbump: With A man at their head who doesn't believe folks should own semiauto Originally Posted By MG_ME: what get's me is why do you need a Semi auto is disturbing.
View Quote
Charlton Heston, many years before he was the leader, or even a member of the NRA, was [b]anti-gun[/b] But things have changed. Chuck has realized the truth and that he was wrong, and has come full circle. So are you going to hold quotes against something I said when I was 16? Can I hold quotes against you from before you were educated on the reality of guns? Give the man a freakin' chance, cause you know what... he's one of the most prominent supporters we have now. Again, NRA first, even if all they do is slow the tide, because you know what? There is a chance that they might hold off long enough for the world to rethink it's position... Then again, we could take up arms today. But I don't exactly see a whole lot of you deciding to do that, do I?
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 12:46:03 PM EDT
my enemie's enemies are my friends
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 1:33:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 2:07:05 PM EDT
Paxton Quigley used to be an anti when she worked for Playboy, but since then she has converted masses or women, soccer moms, to our side. Heston's comment was about an AK-47 and he later narrowed his statement to the fact that a true AK was Full Auto. He has often said that he has slept with a Government Model on his night stand ("dictated by common sense and protected by the Second Amendment") since WWII, and that is a semi-auto. I believe that people should be allowed to have full auto. I believe all gun control laws more restrictive than the Second Amendment should be repealed as Unconstitutional. I believe that the CCW's themselves (which I favor under the circumstances) are fruit of the posionous tree in that they are an outgrowth of Unconstitutional restrictions on our god-given right to carry, that is to BEAR, arms. I even believe that convicted felons once released should not be restricted from possessing firearms. (The argument that they should be barred only serves to validate a bureaucracy dedicated to disarming all of us.) I believe that under the 14th Amendment, the Federal Government is obligated to intervene in cases where states attempt to enforce measures more restrictive than the Second Amendment and, by force if necessary, protect the gun rights of US Citizens in those states. Federal Marshals should be escorting California citizens to gun shows in L.A.!!! The NRA will never be in step with me on these issues -- at least not in public. The public's understanding of these issues has been so degraded that were the NRA to voice even one of them, they would loose all credibility and effectiveness. STILL, I support the NRA. And I do not think that is inconsistent. I think that if the NRA were not there, we would have lost our gun rights long ago. The trick is to win this thing politically, not to die alone in the hills and loose our country! If we are to win it politically, the NRA is the only game in town. Liberty Ship NRA Endowment Life Member GOA JFPO Certified Instructor, Personal Protection Proud Member of the Gun Culture
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 9:27:32 PM EDT
>>Darm11: this is true but what get's me is why do you need a Semi auto is disturbing. It is inappropriate to own a AK47, I get this a lot "you do not need a Semi automatic" this pisses me the FUCK OFF I do not go into there house and tell them what the fuck they can and cannot own.<< Doesn't matter if it is disturbing, doesn't matter if you get PO'd. What does matter is that the NRA is the only game in town when it comes to political effectiveness, and the sooner all gun owners realize that and get behind it the better we will be. I'd lay pretty good odds that if we had 50 million NRA members nobody at the top of the NRA would think we needed to tone down our position.
Link Posted: 5/21/2001 9:37:25 PM EDT
You know they may not be perfect but they are the best we got. You know its not easy to represent over 4 million people at the same time. You know if we did not have the NRA we would be lucky to have squirt guns. Six
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 4:07:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 4:13:10 AM EDT by Sweep]
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:20:13 AM EDT
WHatever makes you all warm and comfy and allows you to sleep at night, I guess. I refuse to identify a chrome plated pile of shit as anything other than what it is--a chrome plated pile of shit. The truth is the NRA has done as much as many anti-gun efforts to disarm us. SImple fact. No amount of waffling or wishy-washy pontification will change that. Having two piss-poor political candidates for president does not garner ANY vote from me either. I am not one to say this piss-poor system we have is the reality therefore it must be dealt with. I am of the opinion that if it ain't right, then we gotta fix it. It's only logical, but then judging by the replies, maybe it's only logical to me. So be it. Whenever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to ensure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery.-- Benjamin Disraeli, 1874
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:24:31 AM EDT
The NRA has always reminded me of Neville Chamberlain. -Andy "Can you describe the suspect?" "Um, it was some guy in a hat...."
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:46:53 AM EDT
I agree in part with the original post, and have to admit that, IMHO, the NRA wastes A LOT of good money on fancy mail campaigns to the already-converted instead of buying air time to take the battle to the enemy. On the other hand, they are (for the most part) all that stands between us and the likes of Hillary, Chuckie, Teddy, and the rest of that gun-grabbing yet armed-bodyguard-surrounded bunch. I've always said that the best thing that NRA could do is (as the most-recognized pro-gun-rights lobby) UNITE with JPFO, GOA, and all the other groups. WE HAVE FAR MORE IN COMMON THAN THAT WHICH SEPARATES US! Sure, JPFO is more strident than NRA, and perhaps NRA is more politically saavy than JPFO. But if both groups meet in the middle and join forces, LOOK OUT. The same goes for GOA, and any other groups I may have left out. Just my .02. Hope the heads of NRA, GOA, JPFO, etc. are reading.... Keep your powder dry!
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:04:22 AM EDT
Hey DJ- Quit yer bitchin and join the NRA. By knocking their imperfect organization, run by imperfect human beings, you only kick the 2nd Amendment in the balls. Like somebody said, do you think they would have to be so moderate if every one of the nearly 100 million gun owners was an NRA member? Take a few deep breaths and think reasonably about it. Then get five of your buddies to join NRA, and have them do the same. Networking baby! The NRA continues to protect our 2nd Amendment, whether you like their tactics or not. I beg you to rethink your position. Happy shooting. -Rich
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:37:36 AM EDT
Forget 50 million or 100 million. We are at 4 1/2 million right now in the NRA, and if we could get to 8 million by the next presidential election, we are talking some SERIOUS advancement. If the NRA grows faster than the Million Misguided Morons (whooops, it already did), and it grows faster than other non-profits (whoops, it already did), and it grows faster than a dot-com (getting there!!!), then the powers at the top will have to listen. Remember that the NRA is a political organization, and they need to be careful while they are small. Just as a previous poster said, when the NRA has 50 million members, the power to stop the encroachment on our freedoms will be greater, and the compromises will not be needed. The NRA compromises because they need to appear reasonable and also grow in size. When they have 50 million people in their ranks, whatever they say will be considered the reasonable answer.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:45:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:33:58 AM EDT
Fellas I have posted this IMHO b/f. I don't care what group you are talking about whether it be NRA, GOA, your local church, your Union org. or whatever, the real power starts at the bottom up. Leaders have no more real power than its members give them.In any one's wildest dreams the power of the NRA if its membership were to just double, this would still leave an estimated 72,000,000 people sitting out there doing nothing. APATHY is the most dangerous thing that faces this country today. I read somewhere that our legislative leaders count 1000 heads per letter or phone call.Does this mean this one pearson is the only one in a thousand to actually put action to his thoughts?
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