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Posted: 9/3/2004 11:15:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 11:15:55 AM EST by Tactical_Jew]
Why does he call 5.56 a mouse-gun round and the M16 a poodle shooter?

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:16:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:18:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:19:09 AM EST
Because he's old.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:21:03 AM EST
Probably because the dust clouds he farts are bigger than .223
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:21:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:22:17 AM EST
If it is not a 308, 30-06, or 45 acp, Cooper is not interested and discourages the use of others not listed here.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:24:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By krazy_karl:
If it is not a 308, 30-06, or 45 acp, Cooper is not interested and discourages the use of others not listed here.




Except for the rounds that he was part of developing... which do not appear on that list
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:25:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By krazy_karl:
If it is not a 308, 30-06, or 45 acp, Cooper is not interested and discourages the use of others not listed here.




Except for the rounds that he was part of developing... which do not appear on that list



agreed
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:26:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
He likes big rounds.



He likes big rounds, and he cannot lie,
that you other brothers can't deny,
that when a girl walks in wit an itty bitty waist and a .308 in your face,
you get sprung.....

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:27:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By krazy_karl:
If it is not a 308, 30-06, or 45 acp, Cooper is not interested and discourages the use of others not listed here.




Except for the rounds that he was part of developing... which do not appear on that list



Damn, it's been a long time since I read it, but wasn't he behind the Bren-Ten pistol?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:28:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Luckystiff:
Because he's old.



Yep!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:28:59 AM EST
Senility.
As evidenced by the use of the English "we" all the fucking time.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:31:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 11:32:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
He likes big rounds.



Yep. Same reason he thinks .45acp is the only worthwhile pistol round.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:00:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 12:01:09 PM EST by AeroE]
Cooper's looking to kill what he shoots, not poke holes. Big holes up the odds of trauma.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:03:42 PM EST
I'm not all that found of it either. I want an AR in 7.62x39mm caliber. Hell, that right there is the best caliber ever laid to barrel..............
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:07:07 PM EST
Cuz he's an old Goat.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:11:15 PM EST
If the .223 is such an ass killer, I guess the military is screwing up going to the 6.8mm then, eh?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:16:31 PM EST
Because he measures the effectiveness of a rifle by it's kick, and the size of the round.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:17:22 PM EST
drill sergant told me 5.56 wasn't designed to kill . it was designed to wound. hit one and another has to give medical aid. thats 2 tangos out of the fight
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:24:30 PM EST

drill sergant told me 5.56 wasn't designed to kill . it was designed to wound. hit one and another has to give medical aid. thats 2 tangos out of the fight



unfortunately, most 3rd world countries, china, vietnam, ect. don't believe in that philosophy, that is helping their own...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:26:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Cuz he's an old Goat.



Yes and we all know the new way of things is so much better.

Old things work best because they are tried and true -- new things are used just for a change, or because they are lighter (big deal) anyway give me the tried and proven every time.

.223 is good for far shots your target will bleed out before he can hurt you
at up close ranges it zips through you like a laser beam - your dead , but you have a few minutes to inflict mayhem before you expire. The 308 rules, where the 223 is ok for long distance only -- no matter what lumpy's instructor said.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:46:22 PM EST
He has his biases. At his age and with his experience he's entitled. I took a course at Gunsite while he was still there, a very opinionated man. But we're all Americans, it's our birthright to have opinions.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 12:54:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By USMC_ARDefender:

drill sergant told me 5.56 wasn't designed to kill . it was designed to wound. hit one and another has to give medical aid. thats 2 tangos out of the fight



unfortunately, most 3rd world countries, china, vietnam, ect. don't believe in that philosophy, that is helping their own...



well noted

whilst in Iraq it frusturated me to have to put 3-4 even five hole in the rag head before he quit advancing
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:00:58 PM EST
Because all he has to carry is a Beretta.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:05:27 PM EST
He likes BATTLE RIFLES !!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:05:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By BobCole:
If the .223 is such an ass killer, I guess the military is screwing up going to the 6.8mm then, eh?



They're NOT going to 6.8mm

6.8mm is a 'Special Purpose Cartridge' for specifica applicaitons, not general issue...

The future is heavier & longer, not wider...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:07:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:10:38 PM EST
Lump's a grump.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:11:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:13:51 PM EST
Col Cooper is a WW2 Marine Vet. M1 and the 1911 were his compat weapons. Big bullets will knock the BG's down and keep them down. Cooper has a place in firearms history I respect his opinions but they don't keep me from making judgments based on my own experience.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:13:58 PM EST
That's just too damn funny!!!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:14:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By USMC_ARDefender:

drill sergant told me 5.56 wasn't designed to kill . it was designed to wound. hit one and another has to give medical aid. thats 2 tangos out of the fight



unfortunately, most 3rd world countries, china, vietnam, ect. don't believe in that philosophy, that is helping their own...



It should be noted that (a) .223 has a MUCh higher wounding & killing potential than 'The Obselect Communist Caliber' (7.62x39) deployed by 'Most 3rd World Countries'...

If size is all that matters, how 'come the Russians chose an EVEN SMALLER round for the AK74(5.45x39)????

7.62x39 might as well be 30-30...

7.62x51 (.308) is a good sniper & GPMG round, but is poorly suited as a general-issue cartridge, which is why it hasn't been used as such since the early days of Vietnam. It was also our SHORTEST LIVED general-issue cartridge.

At ranges where .223 will zip right thru w/o fragmentation, .308 is going to do THE EXACT SAME THING, and the extra 0.085" of hole isn't gonna make a whit of difference...

No round is a magic 'down-now' weapon except maybe .25mm short... A target that took 5 rds of .223 may very well take 5 rds of 7.62x51...

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:16:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Lump's a grump.



No, Lump just has respect for people that have earned it.



Col. Cooper is often incredibly insightful. His observations about human behavior, are often dead on.

I think his personal biases about weapons, 1911 good, Glock = plastic = bad, etc. Aren't as always as insightful.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:18:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By bostonirish67:
Col Cooper is a WW2 Marine Vet. M1 and the 1911 were his compat weapons. Big bullets will knock the BG's down and keep them down. Cooper has a place in firearms history I respect his opinions but they don't keep me from making judgments based on my own experience.



Yeah no one was ever wounded, and continued to fight in WW-I, WW-II, everyone that was shot was killed instantly............
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:21:33 PM EST
I guess you would have to ask Col. Cooper...with out wetting yourselves in the presence of a real Man.

MT
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:27:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Lump's a grump.



No, Lump just has respect for people that have earned it.



I'm sticking to Grump, I was joking anyway. Any inflamatory, disruptive remark to stir the fires of controversy...
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:31:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By DeadSled:
drill sergant told me 5.56 wasn't designed to kill . it was designed to wound. hit one and another has to give medical aid. thats 2 tangos out of the fight



He also told you that koren whores had slanted pussys, just like their eyes. You figured out that was a lie, didn't you?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:32:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Lump's a grump.



No, Lump just has respect for people that have earned it.



Col. Cooper is often incredibly insightful. His observations about human behavior, are often dead on.

I think his personal biases about weapons, 1911 good, Glock = plastic = bad, etc. Aren't as always as insightful.



Cooper doesn't dislike the Glock because it is plastic. He dislikes it because he prefers the crisp 1911 trigger. Cooper once wrote with approval of the Styre AUG's plastic lockwork--from a durability perspective. He didn't care that much for it with respect to the AUG's crispness.

The current knowledge of 5.56 mm fragmentation as a wounding mechinism dates to the late 80s. By then, Cooper had already decided 5.56 was a dud. If all 5.56 had the wounding potential of Wolf 5.56, he would be right.

Maybe, if Cooper read up on his Fackler, he would change his mind. Maybe someone with a contact could send him some catch-up reading on it.

Cooper might be old, but by my reading he isn't all that conventional. He could probably be persuaded by the right argument.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:41:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By DonS:
Fackler
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:41:18 PM EST
Simple way to end the "5.56 is a pussy round" argument is to ask the opposer if he would like to be shot with that round, since the hole will be soo tiny, precise and clean as a pin hole, little dammage could occur right?

Bandaid would fix that up quick, right?

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:43:00 PM EST
Non of this would matter if GI's could use soft or hollow points
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:43:28 PM EST
.25mm?? That's a wee bit small...but damn...think of all the ammo you could carry. What's the velocity like?




Originally Posted By Dave_A:

No round is a magic 'down-now' weapon except maybe .25mm short... A target that took 5 rds of .223 may very well take 5 rds of 7.62x51...


Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:45:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By bostonirish67:
Col Cooper is a WW2 Marine Vet. M1 and the 1911 were his compat weapons. Big bullets will knock the BG's down and keep them down. Cooper has a place in firearms history I respect his opinions but they don't keep me from making judgments based on my own experience.



Actually no, if you read his Bio he was on a ship's detachment during WWII, from what I have been told (never read for myself) his combat experience with small arms came while serving in "Clandestine Capacity" on "secret missions." These missions occured while the rest of the Marine Corps was in Korea.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:48:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By DeadSled:
drill sergant told me 5.56 wasn't designed to kill . it was designed to wound. hit one and another has to give medical aid. thats 2 tangos out of the fight



It is a military urban legend, the requirement doc the SHVC stated "equal, if not greater lethality" than the calibers of the day out to 400 yards.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:48:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By krazy_karl:
If it is not a 308, 30-06, or 45 acp, Cooper is not interested and discourages the use of others not listed here.




Col. Cooper was on of the main inventors of the 10mm Round and the Bren 10 so his interests are more then just the 3 ctgs. that you listed. He also came up with the Scout Rifle concept and his pet round for his Scout Rifle is .376 Steyr. I like the "ol' fart", he a hell of a man in the same vein as Elmer Keith, not many like him left around to share their wisdom with us.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:48:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
Simple way to end the "5.56 is a pussy round" argument is to ask the opposer if he would like to be shot with that round, since the hole will be soo tiny, precise and clean as a pin hole, little dammage could occur right?

Bandaid would fix that up quick, right?




Well, I for one am not standing still to be shot by a BB gun or stabed by a hat pin. But that doesn't mean I want to rely upon either as a means of defense. So what I'm saying is--your argument sucks.

5.56 works well up close due to bullet fragmintation, resulting in wounds larger than those produced by many larger bullets. But when 5.56 fails to fragment, it is a poor choice for stopping a determined foe.

Under some citcumstances, small holes in the bad guys are just fine. At long range, IMO, even a small hole will make all the difference. In fact, Cooper once theorized on the use of .22 rimfire short range sniper rifles for taking out agitators in demonstrations or riots. He also though the
AUG would be a fine "boat gun", for hosing down pirates on the high seas (i.e., for short range boat exchanges).
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:50:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By DeadSled:
whilst in Iraq it frusturated me to have to put 3-4 even five hole in the rag head before he quit advancing



I saw guys get hit by about every weapon in our arsenal while in Iraq, unless it contained HE I wouldn't say that even the larger calibers were that much more effective. That including one guy who took a 50 hit and continued to fight.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:54:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By bostonirish67:
Col Cooper is a WW2 Marine Vet. M1 and the 1911 were his compat weapons. Big bullets will knock the BG's down and keep them down. Cooper has a place in firearms history I respect his opinions but they don't keep me from making judgments based on my own experience.



Actually no, if you read his Bio he was on a ship's detachment during WWII, from what I have been told (never read for myself) his combat experience with small arms came while serving in "Clandestine Capacity" on "secret missions." These missions occured while the rest of the Marine Corps was in Korea.



He shot two Japanese with his pistol(s) during WW2, and an insurgent with a pistol during Korea.

All three men he killed he killed with .45 pistols. Although I think the first was with a Colt SAA revolver, the second two with 1911s.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 1:58:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By DeadSled:
whilst in Iraq it frusturated me to have to put 3-4 even five hole in the rag head before he quit advancing



I saw guys get hit by about every weapon in our arsenal while in Iraq, unless it contained HE I wouldn't say that even the larger calibers were that much more effective. That including one guy who took a 50 hit and continued to fight.



I agree, sometime too much power is just as bad as too little. There is a fine balance between enough energy to get the bullet into the target and having too much and sending it out the back to waste energy or having too little and not reaching the vitals. Most of the time a determined person will keep fighting even with deadly hits because it's not felt right away. I've heard of deer having their hearts blown out that have ran 100 yards before they drop. Adrenalin and will are sometimes more powerful then bullets.
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