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Posted: 1/3/2020 12:36:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 12:40:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2020 2:05:28 PM EST by chopinbloc]
IB4 "Why is this blue?"
IB4 "7n6 vaporized the muj because tumble!"
IB4 ".300 AAC is totally not a hipster trend."
IB4 "Y u no 16 inch barrel?"
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 12:47:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:
IB4 "Why is this blue?"
IB4 "7n6 vaporized the muj because tumble!"
IB4 ".300 AAC is totally not a hipster trend."
View Quote
I thought you were banned?
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 12:48:52 PM EST
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often.

OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 12:49:01 PM EST
Guessing this is a repurposed .308 projectile designed to perform at velocities higher than 300blk.

If so, then, well...duh.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 12:52:03 PM EST
Now do a Barnes 110 gr TAC tx...
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 12:55:55 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often.

OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances.
View Quote
I'm going with this.
Unless Magtech is marketing this product as an expanding or fragmenting defensive round, the gel test is not measuring what the projectile was designed to do.
Measuring 100-200-300yrd groups would be fine to judge the ammo.

Knowing that this ammo does not expand or fragment out of short barrel 300 BLK guns is good though because some people may associate it with the performance of certain 5.56 OTM loads.
So I do commend Chopping Block for that.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:02:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 70satvert:
Guessing this is a repurposed .308 projectile designed to perform at velocities higher than 300blk.

If so, then, well...duh.
View Quote
Yes, but no. As you mentioned, most bullets used in .300 AAC loads are not designed for that MV. But as Fat_Mcnasty points out above, OTMs are not designed to expand or fragment. They're just very uniform and concentric, which leads to good accuracy. It's simply a happy accident that most 0.224" 75-77gr OTM/BTHP fragment pretty reliably at about 2,500 fps or better.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:03:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BDA:
Now do a Barnes 110 gr TAC tx...
View Quote
I did on my own channel years ago, but you're right. I ought to redo the test for this channel on high speed.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:06:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 70satvert:
Guessing this is a repurposed .308 projectile designed to perform at velocities higher than 300blk.

If so, then, well...duh.
View Quote
This is a problem with like half of the 300BLK on the market, and I think it cripples the popularity of the round when these projectiles perform suboptimally, which is to be expected given they are shooting several hundred of FPS lower than originally designed.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:07:53 PM EST
Is this really enlightening for anyone?
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:10:08 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

Yes, but no. As you mentioned, most bullets used in .300 AAC loads are not designed for that MV. But as Fat_Mcnasty points out above, OTMs are not designed to expand or fragment. They're just very uniform and concentric, which leads to good accuracy. It's simply a happy accident that most 0.224" 75-77gr OTM/BTHP fragment pretty reliably at about 2,500 fps or better.
View Quote
.223 has less material to bunch up at the tip, resulting in a thinner thickness . IIRC it in the .019 ish range, which at that speed it will pop. The brass jacketed 6mm ones I did would pop mid-flight in my 6mm-284. But I'm pushing over 4k in speed on those.

OTM Open Tip Match. Hell, the name should tell ya something.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:13:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By doty_soty:

This is a problem with like half of the 300BLK on the market, and I think it cripples the popularity of the round when these projectiles perform suboptimally, which is to be expected given they are shooting several hundred of FPS lower than originally designed.
View Quote
LOL, 220gr subs out of an 8 inch at 100 yards are in the 800fps area. Way Way way under the opening velocity needed. Most all 30 cal bullets are built around a 1700fps speed. Varmint designs dip lower due to thinner jacket (about 1200).
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:16:41 PM EST
300 should have never been. Chambers and fires in another caliber that ensures mechanical failure on the same platform.

It's like loading 38 special cartridges with 44 magnum loads and just assuming they won't find their way into a standard 38.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:23:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

.223 has less material to bunch up at the tip, resulting in a thinner thickness . IIRC it in the .019 ish range, which at that speed it will pop. The brass jacketed 6mm ones I did would pop mid-flight in my 6mm-284. But I'm pushing over 4k in speed on those.

OTM Open Tip Match. Hell, the name should tell ya something.
View Quote
Holee shitballs!
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:26:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often.

OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances.
View Quote
Im gunna say this dude knows what hes talking about when it comes to bullet designs
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:38:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chase45:

Im gunna say this dude knows what hes talking about when it comes to bullet designs
View Quote
A thing or two, as they say. Every time he posts, he plants me firmly in the bottom of the trough on a Dunning Kruger graph.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:38:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

Holee shitballs!
View Quote
It was pretty cool seeing these gray streaks running to the target then no hole in the target. That was when I was big into varmint hunting and needed a very fragile bullet to keep the bounces of misses down. I backed them down to about 3600 and was good to go.

Now if you want to see something cool, we need someone with CNC to turn out some reverse ogive bullets. It creates a VERY large wound cavity.

Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:42:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chase45:
Im gunna say this dude knows what hes talking about when it comes to bullet designs
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chase45:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often.

OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances.
Im gunna say this dude knows what hes talking about when it comes to bullet designs
Since his info parallels the information presented in the Speer reloading manual (which is top notch, btw) Id say that Fat is pretty credible on this one.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:44:14 PM EST
I would hope that by now people would know this. If you really want to kill something quick with a 300 you have two options. Sonic loads with 110 gr barns x or Hornady sst or subsonic with the $$$ pre fragmented copper bullets such as Lehigh. Everything else is plinking ammo.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:47:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

It was pretty cool seeing these gray streaks running to the target then no hole in the target. That was when I was big into varmint hunting and needed a very fragile bullet to keep the bounces of misses down. I backed them down to about 3600 and was good to go.

Now if you want to see something cool, we need someone with CNC to turn out some reverse ogive bullets. It creates a VERY large wound cavity.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14562/thve-1219062.jpg
View Quote
What are your thoughts on this as it relates to Lehigh and other fluted bullets at handgun speeds? I initially thought it was pure fuckery, considering Lehigh never mentioned anything about improved wounding when they introduced their Extreme Penetrator line, which didn't penetrate very extremely. And then they latched onto the idea of improved wounding after amateur YouTube testers exclaimed about the disturbance seen in gel. I tried to disprove the idea that flutes contribute to wounding, but I have been unable to do so in gelatin.

It appears that fluted bullets do indeed produce substantial disruption in gel and in dead meat. So the only question remaining for me is whether the larger TSC they produce is enough to create wounding in living tissue that meets or exceeds the capability of traditional JHP. To put a finer point on it:

Would a 9mm fluted bullet in the Lehigh style produce more, less, or about the same wounding as a 9mm 124gr HST?
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 1:56:37 PM EST
How is this surprising?
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 2:07:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

What are your thoughts on this as it relates to Lehigh and other fluted bullets at handgun speeds? I initially thought it was pure fuckery, considering Lehigh never mentioned anything about improved wounding when they introduced their Extreme Penetrator line, which didn't penetrate very extremely. And then they latched onto the idea of improved wounding after amateur YouTube testers exclaimed about the disturbance seen in gel. I tried to disprove the idea that flutes contribute to wounding, but I have been unable to do so in gelatin.

It appears that fluted bullets do indeed produce substantial disruption in gel and in dead meat. So the only question remaining for me is whether the larger TSC they produce is enough to create wounding in living tissue that meets or exceeds the capability of traditional JHP. To put a finer point on it:

Would a 9mm fluted bullet in the Lehigh style produce more, less, or about the same wounding as a 9mm 124gr HST?
View Quote
If the force of the stretch cavity exceeds the tissue's elasticity, then it will tear. That's basically a function of how far it stretches it, and how fast.

The same is true of gel. A larger, more rapidly expanding cavity will tear more gel than a smaller, slower expanding one.

That said, gel isn't as resilient as most tissue's in a living human body. You'll commonly see permanent wound cavities in gel from energy levels that are proven to be insufficient to produce permanent wound cavities in humans, at least in the tissues that make up the vitals.

Especially with 9mm, I think the bottom line is that there's just not enough energy to create much of a permanent wound channel, no matter how the bullet is designed.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 2:10:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 2:14:30 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 6GUNZ:

If the force of the stretch cavity exceeds the tissue's elasticity, then it will tear. That's basically a function of how far it stretches it, and how fast.

The same is true of gel. A larger, more rapidly expanding cavity will tear more gel than a smaller, slower expanding one.

That said, gel isn't as resilient as most tissue's in a living human body. You'll commonly see permanent wound cavities in gel from energy levels that are proven to be insufficient to produce permanent wound cavities in humans, at least in the tissues that make up the vitals.

Especially with 9mm, I think the bottom line is that there's just not enough energy to create much of a permanent wound channel, no matter how the bullet is designed.
View Quote
Real, organic, 250 bloom, 10% ballistic gelatin is less elastic than most human soft tissue (not including brain, liver, and spleen) but clear gel is more elastic than real gelatin. Maybe even more elastic than human soft tissue.

I think you're probably right but I really want to see some testing in live tissue to be sure.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 2:22:30 PM EST
You guys ever done the Lehigh Defense rounds? (either super or subsonic flavors?)
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 2:27:55 PM EST
First.....I appreciate the testing....but man, what did .300blk do to you as a child? You really hate it.

With that said, I'm not sure if anyone is shocked by the results. I run the 75gr/77gr stuff in 5.56, because we all know that "if" they are going fast enough, they will fragment...even if that isn't what they were designed to do. Same could be said for 55gr FMJ out of long barrels for that matter.

In .300blk, there are a handful of good factory loads that expand or fragment:
78gr Lehigh HVCQ
110gr Barnes Tac-TX,
110gr Hornady Black V-max
110gr Nosler Varmageddon
115gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos
125gr Fiocchi SST
194gr Lehigh Subsonic Maximum Expansion

One that I would really like to see is the 110gr Hornady GMX Full Boar. Looks a lot like Hornady's answer to the Tac-TX (just not as pretty when it is expanded).
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 3:10:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FMJunkie:
You guys ever done the Lehigh Defense rounds? (either super or subsonic flavors?)
View Quote


.300 AAC Lehigh 115 gr Controlled Chaos

Impact velocity: 2,146 fps
Penetration: 19"
Retained weight: 43.1 gr
Neck: 1.75"

Core:
43.1 gr

Petals:
12.1 gr
14.4 gr
10.2 gr
11.6 gr
12.8 gr
16.0 gr

Average petal weight:
12.9 gr



.300 AAC Gorilla 110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos

Penetration: 21.2"
Retained weight: 96.8gr
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A
Neck: 1"
TSC: 8" x 3.5"

Velocities in fps:
2,126
2,093
2,129
2,107
2,096
Average: 2,110
StdDev: 16.66
Min: 2,093
Max: 2,129
Spread: 36



.300 BLK Ventura subsonic 194 gr Lehigh Maximum Expansion

Average velocity: 1,044 fps
Average penetration: 15.6"
Average retained weight: 192.3 gr
Average max expansion: 1.203"
Average min expansion: 0.308"
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 3:16:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By panthermark:
First.....I appreciate the testing....but man, what did .300blk do to you as a child? You really hate it.

With that said, I'm not sure if anyone is shocked by the results. I run the 75gr/77gr stuff in 5.56, because we all know that "if" they are going fast enough, they will fragment...even if that isn't what they were designed to do. Same could be said for 55gr FMJ out of long barrels for that matter.

In .300blk, there are a handful of good factory loads that expand or fragment:
78gr Lehigh HVCQ
110gr Barnes Tac-TX,
110gr Hornady Black V-max
110gr Nosler Varmageddon
115gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos
125gr Fiocchi SST
194gr Lehigh Subsonic Maximum Expansion

One that I would really like to see is the 110gr Hornady GMX Full Boar. Looks a lot like Hornady's answer to the Tac-TX (just not as pretty when it is expanded).
View Quote
Lol. I don't, actually. It's a perfectly capable cartridge for the vast majority of applications that most people might reasonably need. But it is also vastly over rated. If you already own 5.56mm ARs and you want to get into it because reason, go for it. If you are considering a .300 Blackout for your first rifle, it's probably not a great choice. 5.56mm is more widely available, cheaper, and likely to be better at the majority of things that most people do with a rifle.

I have tested everything on that list except for Fiocchi SST and the 78gr Lehigh load. I can wholeheartedly concur that all except the subsonic are well suited for defense. I'd like to test the GMX too. It ought to perform well.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 3:30:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

A thing or two, as they say. Every time he posts, he plants me firmly in the bottom of the trough on a Dunning Kruger graph.
View Quote
Don't be modest, now. You've come up with a number of explanations for different phenomena that I've never even thought of.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 3:34:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2020 3:39:27 PM EST by 6GUNZ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:
I really want to see some testing in live tissue to be sure.
View Quote
People like you are the reason nobody ever volunteers for anything anymore.

Joking aside, though, there has been lots of human testing thanks to high crime and frequent wars in the 21st century.

Basically everyone has concluded you start to see some permanent cavitation around 500 ft-lbs, but that it's not really significant. Of course that's at least somewhat dependent on velocity. There's some reason to believe that low power high velocity rounds like 5.7 might bend the rules a little bit.

Gunshot survival rates reflect that. Assuming you get to a surgeon right away, you're highly likely to survive a pistol wound, whereas if you get shot with a rifle your chances go way down. Surgeons say that rifle rounds often cause too much damage for them to stop the bleeding and there's just nothing that can be done.

I think there's way too much emphasis on permanent cavitation. It's irrelevant whether someone lives or dies on the operating table if they stayed conscious long enough to shoot back at you. And if you don't hit something vital, it's highly likely that they will. You could get lucky and have them faint from the dip in blood pressure, but that seems to be a rarity. I saw a video of a guy in Syria that pretty much lost everything below the chest, and he was fully conscious for several minutes, and that convinced me that the idea of remote wounds or non CNS stops is pretty much winning the lottery if it happens to you. The only way to reasonably stop someone from pulling a trigger is to take out their CNS, or destroy enough of their heart that it cuts off the blood flow. Both of those are tiny targets.

So what it usually comes down to is putting lots of bullets in the A zone as fast as possible. Then it becomes a game of statistics. If you put five or ten shots in the middle of their chest, the odds of the heart getting away from that unscathed are pretty remote.

But of course having a bullet that penetrates straight and deep greatly increases your chances of success. Especially since people don't stand there and let you shoot them. They turn their shoulder, crouch down, and shield themselves with their arms and hands, one of which is probably holding a weapon. So if I have to choose between expansion or penetration, penetration wins out every time.

I saw an autopsy report one time of a guy who got shot by police dozens of times, and had shot that many rounds back at them while this was happening. They found a .223 bullet had passed within an inch of his heart. Speer Gold Dot I think. That just goes to show that a near miss is still a miss, even with rounds known to wreak havoc on living tissue. Had he surrendered, he probably would have died on the operating table minutes to hours later, but even with that giant stretch cavity blowing up right next to his heart, he was still able to hold his ground and keep shooting. One inch to the right, and it would have been over within just a few seconds, regardless of whether it was a .223 or 9mm, or lots of other stuff for that matter.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 3:38:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11wnQFWhAXA

.300 AAC Lehigh 115 gr Controlled Chaos

Impact velocity: 2,146 fps
Penetration: 19"
Retained weight: 43.1 gr
Neck: 1.75"

Core:
43.1 gr

Petals:
12.1 gr
14.4 gr
10.2 gr
11.6 gr
12.8 gr
16.0 gr

Average petal weight:
12.9 gr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QybFnD6J_Mc

.300 AAC Gorilla 110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos

Penetration: 21.2"
Retained weight: 96.8gr
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A
Neck: 1"
TSC: 8" x 3.5"

Velocities in fps:
2,126
2,093
2,129
2,107
2,096
Average: 2,110
StdDev: 16.66
Min: 2,093
Max: 2,129
Spread: 36

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-tUBBbY22k

.300 BLK Ventura subsonic 194 gr Lehigh Maximum Expansion

Average velocity: 1,044 fps
Average penetration: 15.6"
Average retained weight: 192.3 gr
Average max expansion: 1.203"
Average min expansion: 0.308"
View Quote
Thank you! I appreciate it, watched all three.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 3:41:15 PM EST
You gotta dress your meplat with a Dremel man! Every tier one sniper knows this.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 4:05:25 PM EST
Two questions:

1. When you shot it out of an 8 inch AR, how much more velocity does the suppressor give the bullet? Is it unintentionally duplicitous to say that the additional velocity afforded to the bullet by attaching a suppressor still represents what someone would get out of a true 8 inch barrel?

2. Or better yet, is there a measurable amount of comparison, say, an 8 inch suppressor (Or whatever the suppressor you use) is equal to 4 inches of additional barrel, etc?

Always wondered the answer to number 2.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 4:10:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

What are your thoughts on this as it relates to Lehigh and other fluted bullets at handgun speeds? I initially thought it was pure fuckery, considering Lehigh never mentioned anything about improved wounding when they introduced their Extreme Penetrator line, which didn't penetrate very extremely. And then they latched onto the idea of improved wounding after amateur YouTube testers exclaimed about the disturbance seen in gel. I tried to disprove the idea that flutes contribute to wounding, but I have been unable to do so in gelatin.

It appears that fluted bullets do indeed produce substantial disruption in gel and in dead meat. So the only question remaining for me is whether the larger TSC they produce is enough to create wounding in living tissue that meets or exceeds the capability of traditional JHP. To put a finer point on it:

Would a 9mm fluted bullet in the Lehigh style produce more, less, or about the same wounding as a 9mm 124gr HST?
View Quote
the original THV design was really wicked, the bases were hollow and very light weight. IIRC the 9mm version like 45ish Grains in weight. BUT the design had a flaw No Ogive to feed properly into an auto well. And they were a bit soft armor piercing. So banned they were back in the 80s.

What Lehigh did was try to take the best of both the reverse and normal Ogive so it feeds like normal, and weight is almost that of a standard round. So you don't get the really high pressure of the old THV. It's the story of a jack of all trades master of none. Some cool history at the link.

the THV bullets.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 4:13:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Turboguy:
Two questions:

1. When you shot it out of an 8 inch AR, how much more velocity does the suppressor give the bullet? Is it unintentionally duplicitous to say that the additional velocity afforded to the bullet by attaching a suppressor still represents what someone would get out of a true 8 inch barrel?

2. Or better yet, is there a measurable amount of comparison, say, an 8 inch suppressor (Or whatever the suppressor you use) is equal to 4 inches of additional barrel, etc?

Always wondered the answer to number 2.
View Quote
about 100fps on #2
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 4:18:25 PM EST
@Unkydon

Post the dead thing pics..

Unkydon, garryd both did testing and feedback for the 220 Sub expander I was working on. All on critters. And you will find that what works on a boar didn't work well on a deer. Mind you this is subsonic and not sonic per the OP.

Just cool info that's fun to pass on.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 4:20:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2020 4:21:17 PM EST by dorobuta]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

It was pretty cool seeing these gray streaks running to the target then no hole in the target. That was when I was big into varmint hunting and needed a very fragile bullet to keep the bounces of misses down. I backed them down to about 3600 and was good to go.

Now if you want to see something cool, we need someone with CNC to turn out some reverse ogive bullets. It creates a VERY large wound cavity.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/14562/thve-1219062.jpg
View Quote
I would expect them to yaw immediately on impact - resulting in large wound channels.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 4:26:18 PM EST
The magtech stuff would be fine if the poi is the same as a Barnes 110 TACTX. Would make for good practice ammo.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 10:38:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 6GUNZ:

People like you are the reason nobody ever volunteers for anything anymore.

Joking aside, though, there has been lots of human testing thanks to high crime and frequent wars in the 21st century.

Basically everyone has concluded you start to see some permanent cavitation around 500 ft-lbs, but that it's not really significant. Of course that's at least somewhat dependent on velocity. There's some reason to believe that low power high velocity rounds like 5.7 might bend the rules a little bit.

Gunshot survival rates reflect that. Assuming you get to a surgeon right away, you're highly likely to survive a pistol wound, whereas if you get shot with a rifle your chances go way down. Surgeons say that rifle rounds often cause too much damage for them to stop the bleeding and there's just nothing that can be done.

I think there's way too much emphasis on permanent cavitation. It's irrelevant whether someone lives or dies on the operating table if they stayed conscious long enough to shoot back at you. And if you don't hit something vital, it's highly likely that they will. You could get lucky and have them faint from the dip in blood pressure, but that seems to be a rarity. I saw a video of a guy in Syria that pretty much lost everything below the chest, and he was fully conscious for several minutes, and that convinced me that the idea of remote wounds or non CNS stops is pretty much winning the lottery if it happens to you. The only way to reasonably stop someone from pulling a trigger is to take out their CNS, or destroy enough of their heart that it cuts off the blood flow. Both of those are tiny targets.

So what it usually comes down to is putting lots of bullets in the A zone as fast as possible. Then it becomes a game of statistics. If you put five or ten shots in the middle of their chest, the odds of the heart getting away from that unscathed are pretty remote.

But of course having a bullet that penetrates straight and deep greatly increases your chances of success. Especially since people don't stand there and let you shoot them. They turn their shoulder, crouch down, and shield themselves with their arms and hands, one of which is probably holding a weapon. So if I have to choose between expansion or penetration, penetration wins out every time.

I saw an autopsy report one time of a guy who got shot by police dozens of times, and had shot that many rounds back at them while this was happening. They found a .223 bullet had passed within an inch of his heart. Speer Gold Dot I think. That just goes to show that a near miss is still a miss, even with rounds known to wreak havoc on living tissue. Had he surrendered, he probably would have died on the operating table minutes to hours later, but even with that giant stretch cavity blowing up right next to his heart, he was still able to hold his ground and keep shooting. One inch to the right, and it would have been over within just a few seconds, regardless of whether it was a .223 or 9mm, or lots of other stuff for that matter.
View Quote
In the course of your life on the Internet, you might see two or maybe even three posts as good as this one. I tip my hat, sir.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 10:44:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Turboguy:
Two questions:

1. When you shot it out of an 8 inch AR, how much more velocity does the suppressor give the bullet? Is it unintentionally duplicitous to say that the additional velocity afforded to the bullet by attaching a suppressor still represents what someone would get out of a true 8 inch barrel?

2. Or better yet, is there a measurable amount of comparison, say, an 8 inch suppressor (Or whatever the suppressor you use) is equal to 4 inches of additional barrel, etc?

Always wondered the answer to number 2.
View Quote
Silencers usually don't add very much velocity. Like sometimes less than the SD for the tested load.
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 11:00:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

Silencers usually don't add very much velocity. Like sometimes less than the SD for the tested load.
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I get near zero boost from my AAC Cyclone. I suspect that a pre-baffle expansion chamber prevents most boost.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/3/2020 11:53:16 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
@Unkydon

Post the dead thing pics..

Unkydon, garryd both did testing and feedback for the 220 Sub expander I was working on. All on critters. And you will find that what works on a boar didn't work well on a deer. Mind you this is subsonic and not sonic per the OP.

Just cool info that's fun to pass on.
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Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:28:45 AM EST
Where is this 110gr sst you keep recommending?
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:30:31 AM EST
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Originally Posted By swampvol:
Where is this 110gr sst you keep recommending?
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No such thing.

I like how my initial question has been ignored. I guess unbanning people and changing their name was supposed to go unnoticed? If you click old Bluefalcon threads and go to user info it takes you to @chopinbloc
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:39:19 AM EST
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Originally Posted By swampvol:
Where is this 110gr sst you keep recommending?
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Lol. I misspoke. I meant 110gr vmax.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:46:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AS556:
No such thing.

I like how my initial question has been ignored. I guess unbanning people and changing their name was supposed to go unnoticed? If you click old Bluefalcon threads and go to user info it takes you to @chopinbloc
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Originally Posted By AS556:
Originally Posted By swampvol:
Where is this 110gr sst you keep recommending?
No such thing.

I like how my initial question has been ignored. I guess unbanning people and changing their name was supposed to go unnoticed? If you click old Bluefalcon threads and go to user info it takes you to @chopinbloc
Old women like yourself who run around harping about this sort of stuff are annoying.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:48:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/4/2020 12:49:29 AM EST by AS556]
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Originally Posted By Bye_Felicia:

Old women like yourself who run around harping about this sort of stuff are annoying.
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Just more selective application of the rules. Par for the course.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 12:48:57 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chopinbloc:

Lol. I misspoke. I meant 110gr vmax.
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Thanks for the test.

I did my own unscientific test (water jugs) on these about a year ago. link

Had high hopes after seeing how the Rem. 120g OTMs performed in your test as well as what I've seen personally with water, but like you, got 0 fragmentation/expanding.

They do seem to yaw a little earlier than a fmj though.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 1:18:44 AM EST
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Originally Posted By swampvol:

Thanks for the test.

I did my own unscientific test (water jugs) on these about a year ago. link

Had high hopes after seeing how the Rem. 120g OTMs performed in your test as well as what I've seen personally with water, but like you, got 0 fragmentation/expanding.

They do seem to yaw a little earlier than a fmj though.
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Good work. Thank you. Water may not give lots of measurements, but if a bullet doesn't expand or fragment in water, then it definitely won't in tissue.
Link Posted: 1/4/2020 1:30:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
OMG, OTM is not the same as a hollow point. OTM is a design leftover from when the bullet is swaged. When its crushed closed the jacket thickness goes from .017-.019 up to over .023. Making it too thick to pop open at BLK speeds Hell even at 30-06 speeds it fails quite often.

OTM bullet designs are very concentric and consistent in weight making it a great match bullet for punching holes at long distances. Not for opening at long distances.
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This. There's also no cavity in the tip of the core as is common with hollow points.
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