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Posted: 10/8/2015 5:50:12 PM EDT
A Tokarev has been on the lower end of my want list for a while, but I recently got a chance to buy a small pile of 7.62x25, so I figured now is a good time.
I clicked over to my usual first stop when looking for surplus firearms and ammo, AIM, and I found myself looking at this photo: 
What the hell were the people at PW thinking when they decided upon a billboard for an import mark? 
Over in the industry forum, I asked Brian about it, and he said that "some importers care about collect ability, and some don't." Now, I could see these guns having broader appeal back when 7.62x25 surplus ammo was cheap, but now, in 2015, who else is buying 50+ year old, low capacity, full size service pistols chambered for an unusual round other than collectors and hobbyists? Even if these guns were desirable for anyone else, I still don't see the idea behind vandalizing them with these awful import marks. Yeah, I know, it's a Tokarev, not a pre-lock S&W revolver or something Swiss. Something something commie something garbage. Still, an import mark like that kills a very big part of this gun's appeal. Ideally, import marks wouldn't be necessary, but since they are, this is what a good one looks like: 
Small, clean, simple, and out of the way. Anyways, back to the Tokarev, I found myself searching around the internet for other sources. I was seriously considering spending an extra $75-100 for an example marked on the frame on Gunbroker when I found a vendor with a photo of a Century import mark on the frame. I exchanged a few emails back in forth to make sure that's what I would get before I placed an order. Anyways, if you know anyone that works at PW Arms, tell them to cut this bullshit out. |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:08:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Dude you should have seen the 80' s.
Blue Sky always marked their guns crooked. And deeper on one side than the other . Paragon used a pin marker. It looked like an electric pencil The guns were M1 Carbines 
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:20:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Meh. I don't mind import marks as long as they're not overdone. (IMO, the import mark in the OP is overdone.) They add to the gun's history.
I have a wartime Springfield Armory M1 Garand with a "Blue Sky" stamp on the barrel near the muzzle. You have to look hard to find it. |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:21:57 PM EDT
[#3]
It's combloc stuff. It's ugly to begin with.
Can't polish a turd. |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:22:50 PM EDT
[#4]
PW is Pac West I believe. And they mark them because it is a atf rule
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:26:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a wartime Springfield Armory M1 Garand with a "Blue Sky" stamp on the barrel near the muzzle. You have to look hard to find it. I had a .410 Enfield from Springfield Sporters that was marked on the barrel, under the rear handguard. Wish I still had it, it looked like it was built on a nearly unissued gun. |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:34:43 PM EDT
[#6]
I took the drunken owner home to his mansion in my taxi one night.
He was very different imo. |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:40:00 PM EDT
[#7]
I have been wanting to pick up a 9mm Steyr & came across some grey market PW Arms M9s at the last gun show I went to. That black rectangle is where the import mark SHOULD be (Steyr USA of Bessemer or Trussville AL depending on the year). |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:46:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PW is Pac West I believe. And they mark them because it is a atf rule They don't have to mark them like that... |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:56:53 PM EDT
[#9]
OP, you should have seen the import marks on a batch of K31's that AIM got in a year or two ago that made the rounds in the C&R forum....Huge block of letters on the top of the receiver, I believe it was Century that mangled them.
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Posted: 10/8/2015 6:58:38 PM EDT
[#10]
It's terrible what we do to these things
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Posted: 10/8/2015 7:30:55 PM EDT
[#11]
PW Arms looks like it's in the same building as the AR57 guys and one other importer I can't remember the name of. Or maybe I'm wrong.
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Posted: 10/8/2015 7:32:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PW is Pac West I believe. And they mark them because it is a atf rule This, its not the late 80s / early 90s anymore. 
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Posted: 10/8/2015 7:34:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, you should have seen the import marks on a batch of K31's that AIM got in a year or two ago that made the rounds in the C&R forum....Huge block of letters on the top of the receiver, I believe it was Century that mangled them. Sad thing to do to a beautiful rifle... 
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Posted: 10/8/2015 7:41:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's terrible what we do to these things Eh, a Parker, Beretta, or Perazzi yeah. A rough gun made by serfs barely better than slaves covered in commiefont? |
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Posted: 10/8/2015 8:23:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sad thing to do to a beautiful rifle... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP, you should have seen the import marks on a batch of K31's that AIM got in a year or two ago that made the rounds in the C&R forum....Huge block of letters on the top of the receiver, I believe it was Century that mangled them. Sad thing to do to a beautiful rifle... This was practically criminal
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Posted: 10/8/2015 8:25:07 PM EDT
[#16]
First of all, fuck import marks.
But since the government sucks, import marks should be on the bottom of the barrel or somewhere you can't obviously see.
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Posted: 10/8/2015 8:59:26 PM EDT
[#17]
It has a manual safety. It's already ruined. Who cares about how shitty the import mark is?
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:41:28 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Eh, a Parker, Beretta, or Perazzi yeah. A rough gun made by serfs barely better than slaves covered in commiefont? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's terrible what we do to these things Eh, a Parker, Beretta, or Perazzi yeah. A rough gun made by serfs barely better than slaves covered in commiefont? It's still a collectible item of which there are a finite number in circulation. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:43:34 AM EDT
[#19]
overdone is when they're filled in with white paint
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:54:47 AM EDT
[#20]
The safety they put on those to be able to import them is more of an abomination.
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:56:56 AM EDT
[#21]
My older Tokarev is a single line on the right side of the slide
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:00:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's combloc stuff. It's ugly to begin with. Can't polish a turd. Correct, but I think his point was the garish marks are more like throwing up on a turd. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:04:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I took the drunken owner home to his mansion in my taxi one night. He was very different imo. Did he give you a reach around............or just the tip? |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:08:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Import marks used to be down-right microscopic. My understanding is that a few years ago, ATF (again making law by decree) issued arbitrary regulations about the font size and depth of engraving as well as the use of abbreviations and punctuation with regards to import markings. I heard that they then slapped Century's pee-pee over a bunch of "improperly marked" guns. The result is that importers are taking no chances and going well above and beyond what ATF has deemed acceptable. The bad news is that a lot of collectible pieces of history have to be defaced. It is like printing a copyright across the Mona Lisa.
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:09:09 AM EDT
[#25]
This one is marked on the front of the grip, very small. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:13:31 AM EDT
[#26]
Thanks, PW.
And no, they don't have to do this, they just do. Several other importers use much smaller markings in much less conspicuous places. CAI defaced the hell out of the recent K31 imports with gigantic billboards on the receiver, while M&M used a tiny marking on the underside of the barrel on their imports of the K11s, M1911 and 1896/11 rifles. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 9:15:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First of all, fuck import marks. But since the government sucks, import marks should be on the bottom of the barrel or somewhere you can't obviously see. When I worked at TGI, that's where we put the import mark. And in the smallest script allowed by the ATF. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 10:05:39 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks, PW. <a href="http://s747.photobucket.com/user/MVolkJ1975/media/Milsurps/StarModelB_zps0d54f6cf.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx116/MVolkJ1975/Milsurps/StarModelB_zps0d54f6cf.jpg</a> <a href="http://s747.photobucket.com/user/MVolkJ1975/media/Milsurps/M571.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx116/MVolkJ1975/Milsurps/M571.jpg</a>
And no, they don't have to do this, they just do. Several other importers use much smaller markings in much less conspicuous places. CAI defaced the hell out of the recent K31 imports with gigantic billboards on the receiver, while M&M used a tiny marking on the underside of the barrel on their imports of the K11s, M1911 and 1896/11 rifles. The import mark on that Star is less than ideal, but I don't think it's unreasonable. The billboard on the slide is ridiculous. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 11:52:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's combloc stuff. It's ugly to begin with. Can't polish a turd. But you can roll it in glitter. |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 3:22:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But you can roll it in glitter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's combloc stuff. It's ugly to begin with. Can't polish a turd. But you can roll it in glitter. Good point. Cover shit in glitter and throw it in a lake to catch catfish |
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Posted: 10/9/2015 8:50:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I worked at TGI, that's where we put the import mark. And in the smallest script allowed by the ATF. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
First of all, fuck import marks. But since the government sucks, import marks should be on the bottom of the barrel or somewhere you can't obviously see. When I worked at TGI, that's where we put the import mark. And in the smallest script allowed by the ATF. That's the best spot for rifles and revolvers. |
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Posted: 10/11/2015 11:07:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Import marks used to be down-right microscopic. My understanding is that a few years ago, ATF (again making law by decree) issued arbitrary regulations about the font size and depth of engraving as well as the use of abbreviations and punctuation with regards to import markings. I heard that they then slapped Century's pee-pee over a bunch of "improperly marked" guns. The result is that importers are taking no chances and going well above and beyond what ATF has deemed acceptable. The bad news is that a lot of collectible pieces of history have to be defaced. It is like printing a copyright across the Mona Lisa. Does anyone know the specifics of what's required? |
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:13:11 PM EDT
[#33]
At least it's on the front strap. It's aggressive enough to act as checkering. |
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:17:13 PM EDT
[#34]
On pistols we always engraved either the bottom edge of the slide where it overlapped the frame. Or on the heel of the frame where the magazine was inserted, if there was enough material.
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:23:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PW is Pac West I believe. And they mark them because it is a atf rule Its an ATF rule to import mark the receiver/frame, which is considered the firearm. They are marking the slides, so they obviously dont care or are too stupid. Probably a mix of the two. |
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:32:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/Bassgasm1/Gun%20Stuff/Walther%20P38%20import%20mark_zpsa6dx9yis.jpg At least it's on the front strap. It's aggressive enough to act as checkering. LOL.....Interarms put their mark on the underside of the edge of the slide on their Gray Ghost P-38s. They were acid etched on there in very small lettering as you would expect of such a location. When I see one at a show the seller always says "no import marks". I just flip it over and say yes there is or point out where they have been filed/buffed smooth. Talk about getting some dirty looks. 
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:34:22 PM EDT
[#37]
marketing
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:35:12 PM EDT
[#38]
I have a K31 that came through PW, and the mark isn't very bad. Small and low on the side of the sight block. Would I prefer it be hidden? Yeah. Do I trust the average importer to remove hundreds of surplus stocks to place an import mark under the barrel where it can't be seen? Not without doing serious damage to a lot of rifles.
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Posted: 11/13/2015 5:45:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a K31 that came through PW, and the mark isn't very bad. Small and low on the side of the sight block. Would I prefer it be hidden? Yeah. Do I trust the average importer to remove hundreds of surplus stocks to place an import mark under the barrel where it can't be seen? Not without doing serious damage to a lot of rifles. That's a lot of work the importer won't do. We were getting in 10,000-15,000 91/30 Mosin Nagants per shipment. Removing the stock to engrave would have been a nightmare. We engraved on the underside of the barrel and recased them. Turn em and burn em. Distributors were screaming for them as soon as they hit our dock. I don't remember how many total we did in the short time we got the Mosins in. Seems like there was 7 or 8 shipments of 10,000 or 15,000 in each shipment. Each shipment was followed up by 2 weeks later by 5.5 million rounds of 7.62x54r ammo. Add into that all the pistols we were getting in from Israel and Hungary to be inventoried, engraved, serial numbers to be checked against manifests so the "born on date" and numbers could be declared to the ATF in their time line of entering all the data and declaring it with them. |
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Posted: 11/13/2015 9:25:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a lot of work the importer won't do. We were getting in 10,000-15,000 91/30 Mosin Nagants per shipment. Removing the stock to engrave would have been a nightmare. We engraved on the underside of the barrel and recased them. Turn em and burn em. Distributors were screaming for them as soon as they hit our dock. I don't remember how many total we did in the short time we got the Mosins in. Seems like there was 7 or 8 shipments of 10,000 or 15,000 in each shipment. Each shipment was followed up by 2 weeks later by 5.5 million rounds of 7.62x54r ammo. Add into that all the pistols we were getting in from Israel and Hungary to be inventoried, engraved, serial numbers to be checked against manifests so the "born on date" and numbers could be declared to the ATF in their time line of entering all the data and declaring it with them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have a K31 that came through PW, and the mark isn't very bad. Small and low on the side of the sight block. Would I prefer it be hidden? Yeah. Do I trust the average importer to remove hundreds of surplus stocks to place an import mark under the barrel where it can't be seen? Not without doing serious damage to a lot of rifles. That's a lot of work the importer won't do. We were getting in 10,000-15,000 91/30 Mosin Nagants per shipment. Removing the stock to engrave would have been a nightmare. We engraved on the underside of the barrel and recased them. Turn em and burn em. Distributors were screaming for them as soon as they hit our dock. I don't remember how many total we did in the short time we got the Mosins in. Seems like there was 7 or 8 shipments of 10,000 or 15,000 in each shipment. Each shipment was followed up by 2 weeks later by 5.5 million rounds of 7.62x54r ammo. Add into that all the pistols we were getting in from Israel and Hungary to be inventoried, engraved, serial numbers to be checked against manifests so the "born on date" and numbers could be declared to the ATF in their time line of entering all the data and declaring it with them. TGI has always been good about thinking of collectors when in came to the import marks esp on Mosins and Mausers. Even Century Arms toned back the billboard after awhile but were still pretty much DGAS about collectors.. PW just doesn't care, they know they will sell regardless so the time and labor saved in import marking is more important than making customers happy.. |
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