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Posted: 3/6/2006 8:13:14 AM EDT
With alot of American made vehicles reliability at the bottom of the list it is getting harder to except the cost of a new vehicle these days.

I hear a lot of Japanese(sp) vehicle owners who state that they have never had a problem with reliability. If I were a thinking man I guess it would be a no brainer but something inside me won't let me buy a non American made vehicle. I don't know if it is pride in owning what my countrymen made or if its not wanting another country to continue winning an economic war.

I would feel unpatriotic if I brought home a non American made vehicle. Does anybody else feel like that.

Anybody else feel like this.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:15:15 AM EDT
No.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:16:35 AM EDT
I do.


That's why I bought a Toyota Tacoma.


Made in the USA by Americans.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:18:17 AM EDT
Define "American made"

Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, vehicles that are made in the US by foriegn based corporations?
Or cars made in other countries by US based corporations?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:19:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 8:23:08 AM EDT by CamperDad]
Nope. The un-american thought is to buy an inferior product because it was made by your group (americans in this case) rather than the best you can get for your money.

Here's a shortened version of an essay by Harry Binswanger on this very subject.

www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=576

One page, well worth reading.

- CD

PS: Can't get the link stuff to work for some reason....
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:19:22 AM EDT
Did you mean a"Big 3" car?

If so, then, "no".

I tire of people screwing me and takeing my
money over and over again, no matter what
flag they do it under.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:19:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 8:20:15 AM EDT by TodaysTomSawyer]
Here's the rub -

I have an '03 Chevy Avalanche. Assembled in Mexico. U.S. Parts content is unknown to me.

Wife has '05 Honda Accord. Assembled in Marysville, Ohio. U.S. parts content - 85% according to the sticker - the 15% is a Japanese produced transmission.

Which one is non-American?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:20:28 AM EDT
I grew up around Flint, Michigan. My dad is a 40 year employee of GM, and he would have a stroke if I purchased a foreign made vehicle. Foreign labeled, but made in the U.S., vehicles would probably rate just a heart attack.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:21:47 AM EDT
Unless things change dramatically, I'm driving what will be my last 'big 3' car now. The only exception I may make would be for a boutique type car - say a dodge viper or hte new dodge challenger in the SRT format. But for daily drivers, I'm probably going to go with something by toyota next.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:22:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GySgtD:
I grew up around Flint, Michigan. My dad is a 40 year employee of GM, and he would have a stroke if I purchased a foreign made vehicle. Foreign labeled, but made in the U.S., vehicles would probably rate just a heart attack.




Ever notice the 'Furrin content stickers?'


Chevy S-11 or whatever, 80+% made somewhere else.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:22:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BRONZ:

I hear a lot of Japanese(sp) vehicle owners who state that they have never had a problem with reliability.




A friend that in the industry tells me that is because Honda specifies a TON of standard maintainance.


So you are paying for it in advance.


I haven't owned a Honda except for motorcycles, which had issues..........

But my buddy's Honda had plenty of issues - of course his wife only drove something like 1.3 miles to work.....
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:23:04 AM EDT
I drive a Chevy because it was the truck I wanted, with the features I wanted and the look I wanted.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:29:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 8:31:20 AM EDT by warlord]
I would do some research on the year and model interested. I would consult Consumer's Report at the local library for reliability and repair history for that make, model, & year, and look for the ones with at least the white circles indicating average. The USA-Big3 car lines have many, many black marks up and down their car line, from economy to luxury class. If the black marks were for 1 or 2 lines, that maybe an anomoaly, but when its pervasive throughout the company, then there are potential problems. I personally wouldn't screw myself just to be patriotic, remember you're putting in thousands of dollars of real folding green stuff.

But remember just because it's Japanese doesn't mean it is a good car, witness the current NIssan minvan, it has as many or more defects than the USA-Big3 minivans.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:31:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:31:23 AM EDT
Up until about 4 years ago, there was no chance you'd find a foreign vehichle in my driveway. By that I mean a new one. I will buy used if the deal is right. Over the years, I had a toyota 4 runner, used. Excellent vehicle. Used nissan stanza. Excellent vehicle. Used VW's, two of them. Better than any US car I've had recently.

That said, I recently had a new bought 2000 God-damned(!) Ford minivan. That thing was THE biggest piece of crap worthless gas guzzling uncomfortable rattling shaking worthless piece of shit car I've ever had. Bar none! Replaced the fucking tranny at 65k miles. $2300. Replaced the fucking tranny AGAIN at 137K miles. Replaced the alternator. The radio didn't work. The air had to have work. And it chewed up front tires in particular like the damn things are a dime a dozen.

Based on that, I bought a 2004 Honda Accord LX V-6. Brand fricking NEW! I've put almost 60K on the car and if I didn't tell you it had 60K on it, you'd say it looked, smelled and drove like new.
Far as I'm concerned, the domestics will get my dollar just as soon as they can compete. End of rant.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:33:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

I would consult Consumer's Report .




I simply don't trust them. I don't think their testing methods are always accurate, or their reporting methods


Where do they get their reliability numbers? They often don't correlate with JD Powers.

I *think* a lot of japanese car owners overstate their reliability. I've caught them doing this. THey tell you how reliable their vehicles are, but when pressed they mention plenty of repairs. On the other hand, bashing American products is fashionable.


Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:33:55 AM EDT
I have a hard time buying "foreign" due to my dad working in a skilled trade. (Supplier to the big 3 and others).

I might not have that problem next time I'm due to buy a vehicle though... No I'm not hoping my dad will die early, I might just take a look at the Toyotas and buy one of them, and if he doesn't like it, tough...

I've had lemons and I've had good vehicles. I am hoping the ones my wife and I have now (and hope to have for 4-5 more years) will be good vehicles.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:34:18 AM EDT
all our family cars are all german made, xcept our ML which is made in US of A
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:35:04 AM EDT
Nope.

I have a Korean car for a daily driver..

... and a German car in the garage that I'm restoring.

Only had one American car in my life, and it was a huge turd on wheels.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:35:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThirtyCal_FAL:
.
.
That said, I recently had a new bought 2000 God-damned(!) Ford minivan. That thing was THE biggest piece of crap worthless gas guzzling uncomfortable rattling shaking worthless piece of shit car I've ever had. Bar none! Replaced the fucking tranny at 65k miles. $2300. Replaced the fucking tranny AGAIN at 137K miles. Replaced the alternator. The radio didn't work. The air had to have work. And it chewed up front tires in particular like the damn things are a dime a dozen.


I think you bought the Ford with the Turaus transmission, it is definitely a problem in the Ford line, and Ford has never bothered to fix the design flaw. So much for "building excitement."
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:36:37 AM EDT
GMC/Chevy trucks, maybe Toyota if they dropped in price.

I cant justify spending $5-10k more on a product that wont cost that much in standard repairs.



Dunno bout cars. Maybe late 90's Honda Accord, 4door with V6 and sunroof and leather.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:37:16 AM EDT
I'll start this out with info about my Ford truck. 150k miles, no major repairs, never tuned it up, never changed the battery, etc., and FOUR oil changes in the last 90,000 miles. It's been great.

As stated above, there is no such thing as an American vehicle. My Dodge was manufactured in Mexico and Dodge is owned by a German company.

That said, I don't drive cars, and you couldn't pay me to drive a Japanese truck. There's a reason why the full size truck market is still througly owned by the big 3. The Japs cannot, and probably never will compete.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:38:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
I do.


That's why I bought a Toyota Tacoma.


Made in the USA by Americans.



Me too.

<-------------------- See avatar
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:38:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GySgtD:
I grew up around Flint, Michigan. My dad is a 40 year employee of GM, and he would have a stroke if I purchased a foreign made vehicle. Foreign labeled, but made in the U.S., vehicles would probably rate just a heart attack.



Yup.
This mind set is out there.
A friend of mine's wife's dad worked his whole life for Chevrolet Division of General Motors. EVERY family member HAD to buy a Chevy. Anyone who didn't would be disowned. I mean seriously. His own children would literally be banned from the dining room table if they bought anything other than a Chevy. No f**king way could anyone even park anything else in the driveway.

Finally, after a lifetime of living under this bullshit and owning one crappy Chevy after another, my friend's wife just finally said, "Screw it!" and bought a used Honda Accord (which, of course has given flawless service).
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:39:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 8:41:49 AM EDT by warlord]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By warlord:

I would consult Consumer's Report .




I simply don't trust them. I don't think their testing methods are always accurate, or their reporting methods


Where do they get their reliability numbers? They often don't correlate with JD Powers.

I *think* a lot of japanese car owners overstate their reliability. I've caught them doing this. THey tell you how reliable their vehicles are, but when pressed they mention plenty of repairs. On the other hand, bashing American products is fashionable.


I would look over like trends. True CU is not absolutely 100% reliable, but you're spending some serious folding green stuff. If you "choose poorly" you could be personally SOL.

Remember JD Powers debacle a few years ago? Google.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:39:58 AM EDT
I use to be that way until my dad took over as plant manager of a UAW shop.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:40:27 AM EDT

Who here can't bring themselves to buy a non American made vehicle.


Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:47:09 AM EDT
I've owned Oldsmobiles, Chevys, Fords, and Chryslers in the past...
First things first, they all rotted to shit, and took no time to do so.

The old V8s were great motors, if one happened to take a shit, it was a weekend project in the driveway, no matter what the problem was. No cars are like this anymore.

The best running car I ever owned was the Chrysler.
It was a New Yorker... 2.2L turbo 4cyl
Something like 150k on that Mitsubishi motor,
and the turbo was as strong as day one.
Suspension and body fell apart.

I'm driving a Mitsubishi motor right now,
a 4WD with nearly 200k, it's a 93
Its never once failed to start. The body is starting to go, yet the floors are still real solid. As it happens, my oil pan is seeping oil and due to 4WD it requires serious labor to change the pan out. Also, I've got a cracked windshield. Considering the length of service, versus cost of repairs, it's time to buy something new. The suspension was never very good to begin with either.

I'm now in the market to buy, and plan on buying brand new.
It's definitely not going to be, so called "American".

I wish I could buy something "American" and feel somewhat confident that it would be reliable until at least I got out from under the large debt of ownership. However, I feel quite confident I'd be lucky to get 5yrs total out of the vehicle. At 5yrs ownership I'll have lost at least $10k in value. At 5yrs ownership, I'll be pretty well screwed on a trade-in.

Toyota, Honda, here I come.
I look forward to another 10-15 years in one vehicle.
5 years worth of paying, and another 10 years free of that debt.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:47:56 AM EDT
2000 Jeep
1992 Camaro
1991 1500 Truck
1967 Chevelle

Nope no imports in my garage. However everything else I own is probably made in China/Taiwan.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:51:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:

Originally Posted By GySgtD:
I grew up around Flint, Michigan. My dad is a 40 year employee of GM, and he would have a stroke if I purchased a foreign made vehicle. Foreign labeled, but made in the U.S., vehicles would probably rate just a heart attack.




Ever notice the 'Furrin content stickers?'


Chevy S-11 or whatever, 80+% made somewhere else.




I have bought nothing but american made cars and trucks.
I have had my share of problems....


But these days a lot of the "American made" shit is made in Mexico...I would rather buy something built in Japan than Mexico... They make quality stuff in Japan..

But most Japanese brands are made in the U.S. exclusively for the U.S. market. Ever been to Japan? Everyday Japanese cars are a LOT smaller.

At least the plants that produce the Japanese brands in the U.S. are managed by companies with a proven track record...

I am considering buying a Toyota next time around.
I keep hearing the rave reviews about them...problem free cars...
I am abadoning my loyalty on the next purchase...


Why buy shit that is Hecho en Mexico managed by companies with a dismall track record

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:58:03 AM EDT
Wife bought a Nissan PU in '86.First.And last foreign job.Was a POS from day one.My F150 is 16 years old,242,000 on it ,and NEVER in the shop.Tires,shocks,brakes.Battery went at just under 10 years,and alternator soon after.Just replaced it with a new F250.Rest of the fleet is AMERICAN as well.(and you KNOW what I mean-justify it any way you can,IF it makes you feel better,Ricerboys)
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 8:58:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
I *think* a lot of japanese car owners overstate their reliability. I've caught them doing this. THey tell you how reliable their vehicles are, but when pressed they mention plenty of repairs.



I can tell you honestly that I've never seen anything take abuse like a 4cyl Mitsubishi motor, turbo or non. In fact, I blew up a Ford 4cyl with 80K under less abuse than my Mitsus which are driving for double that. I don't even change oil man! Maybe once every two years, just to get a new filter in there. I never flush coolant. I change plugs/wires/rotor once every 100K.

I've never had a real mechanical failure on a Jap motor.
I don't consider a starter as a real mechanical failure because they only last so long anyhow. I've replaced one of those, although, it was just the internal soldenoid which, coulda been rebuilt, but for $60 entire rebuilt replacement, I just said fuck it. Sensors/computers can be problem areas mostly due to age and corrosion... but again, junkyarding it easy, I got a replacement computer module thing (the brain) for my Chrysler/Mitsu, from a yard for $20!!


On the other hand, with GM products I went thru water pumps, alternators, radiators, starters, gas tanks, and this stuff was just what seemed like yearly maintenance! Funny thing too, because I always maintained my "American" cars like they were gold. Oil changes, hell all fluids changed regularly... did'nt do me a bit of good! Matter of fact, with all of the frame rot problems I've had in "American" cars, I could have myself a garage full of like-new rebuilt GM motors by now! But I don't bother.

The Jap cars, I don't maintain cuz I don't care, don't even like em much, but they start every damn day and just never freakin' die! As fucked up as my current truck is... I'm actually feeling bad about dumping it, because it has been so unbelieveably reliable to me. Go figure!
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:00:52 AM EDT
I'm the opposite, can't bring myself to buy something 'American' because it's Hecho en Mexico and breaks all the time.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:02:15 AM EDT
BTW, when it comes to cars I have to carefully regard the source.


A lot of guys will badmouth the hell out of a vehicle over virtually nothing.


It's a POS! The cigarette lighter stopped working after 300000000000 miles!
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:02:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:
That said, I don't drive cars, and you couldn't pay me to drive a Japanese truck. There's a reason why the full size truck market is still througly owned by the big 3. The Japs cannot, and probably never will compete.



Yeah, and theres also a reason that gas is so fuckin' expensive. Jap cars are economical, I don't think they have any desire to build Hummer type shit that puts the world into further hurt by increasing the overall oil consumption.

and frankly, I'd rather give my money to the Japs, opposed to the ROPers over there with the oil wells.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:04:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 9:04:35 AM EDT by warlord]
The USA-Big3 should bring back the venerable late 60s 300CID Big 6 ChevyII and the Chrsyler Dodge Dart/Plymouth Valiant with the 170/225CID Slant-6, now those combo would truely be import busters.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:04:23 AM EDT
Just one more thought.

Exaclty who is really benefiting when someone buys a substandard product?

Is the buyer benefiting from owning a product that gives less than top notch service?
Is the manufacturer benefiting from the existance of enablers who help them continue to build uncompetative products?

I think the best way to help American manufacturers is to buy from them when they produce great products and to stop buying from them immediately as soon as they try to sell anything substandard. They are only going to be competative and prosperous in the world market if they make good products.
Consumers do them a favor when they force them to keep working hard. Consumers do them a disservice when they give them a pass for a free ride.


Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:06:30 AM EDT
Bronz, I've been buying cars for 20 years...averaging one every 3-4 years. I've only bought Ford, GM or Dodge.

My next new car will likely be a Nissan.

Why the sudden switch? Because the big 3 abandoned this country long before I abandoned buying their cars. They've sent so many jobs overseas, and squeezed their suppliers so hard, forcing them out of business (or to outsource to Mexico/Kuala Lumpur and Malaysia) that I feel I no longer need to support their "American" business.

Can't wait to see what the 2007 Altima is gonna look like in metallic red.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:10:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Define "American made"

Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, vehicles that are made in the US by foriegn based corporations?
Or cars made in other countries by US based corporations?



+1

It's a free country. Buy whatever car you want. Usually, the best quality for the lowest price wins.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:13:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
BTW, when it comes to cars I have to carefully regard the source.
A lot of guys will badmouth the hell out of a vehicle over virtually nothing
It's a POS! The cigarette lighter stopped working after 300000000000 miles!




Say what you will, but American cars are simply not what they used to be and you sure as hell can't fix em in the back yard anymore. Used to be a teardown on a V8 took about 2 hours, now it takes two hours just to find the bolts. The electronic shit on these cars is rediculous, and it's completely unreliable... find me a five year old Ford Explorer that still has working power windows.

Worst of all, I mean above and beyond all of this little mechanical bullshit....

I just love it when the underside of my American car is a convertible. Nothing like a Flinstone mobile, eh!

Foreign cars just don't rot at the same rate as does it's American counterparts. Bad sensors and power windows are easy fixes, but rotted out frame rails most definitely are not.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:14:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:41:08 AM EDT
What?

Don't you feel guilty when you buy foreign made WEAPONRY?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 9:57:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Define "American made"

Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, vehicles that are made in the US by foriegn based corporations?
Or cars made in other countries by US based corporations?


Actually, in the past few years, Mercedes and BMW has suffered some quality lapses. I am as patriotic as the next guy, but you're got $30K+ of hard-earned money riding on the line, you can't afford to make too many mistakes, because the USA-Big3 will walk away from you the instant your warranty has expired.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:05:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By unseenSNIPER:
What?

Don't you feel guilty when you buy foreign made WEAPONRY?



Nope, have a Glock on my side right now.

Still love my 1911, but Amerians can't compete in the double or safe action type pistol market either. Foreigners still can't compete on the 1911 though.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:07:23 AM EDT
I have a mexican made ford...... Is that american?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:14:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
there hasn't been a real AMERICAN mande vehical for 15+ years



With all due respect, actually there is one that is truly American made...

AM General's HMMWV and H1 components are 99% made in U.S.A.

I couldn't say that to GM's h2 and h3 though..... my Kodiak's suspension parts are "hecho en mexico".

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:27:54 AM EDT
Did you know:

Most of the auto manufacturers that build things in the US actually buy their materials and sub-assemblies from the same suppliers and contractors.

I doubt there's much difference in quality, anymore.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:38:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWS:
Did you know:

Most of the auto manufacturers that build things in the US actually buy their materials and sub-assemblies from the same suppliers and contractors.

I doubt there's much difference in quality, anymore.



Depends. You can still buy cars made entirely elsewhere.
RAV4 for example, 100% Jap.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:41:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWS:
Did you know:

Most of the auto manufacturers that build things in the US actually buy their materials and sub-assemblies from the same suppliers and contractors.....



Yep, they do to keep the costs down.....
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:50:30 AM EDT
In over 35 years of buying cars/trucks I've never NOT bought an American badge, I'll never buy a foreign badged car/truck.

I don't rag on those who choose not to buy American, it's just that I never will.

I might even be considered a hypocrite because in my 35 years of buying motorcycles I've never bought American, I've always had metric cruisers....
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 10:51:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 10:52:37 AM EDT by markl32]
Auto manufactures are all global companies. If you are making a purchase decision based on a company's historical country of origin, I recommend you look at your paradigms.

Pick the right vehicle for your application, leave the emotion out of it.

-markl32, native Detroiter, son of an Engineer in the auto industry.
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