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Posted: 10/10/2007 7:34:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 7:36:01 AM EST by Another-Bill]
UAW on strike again, so who do the union workers REALLY work for?

The way I think, they work for the union, not the companies, and the union then supplies workers to fill their contracts. So they aren’t really GM or Ford workers, they are UAW workers fulfilling the UAW’s labor agreements.

Happy Motoring,
Bill

Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:16:15 AM EST
Karl Marx, V.I. Lenin and Josef Stalin.

Colonel Hurtz
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:17:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:21:47 AM EST
They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and...

You'd think I was talking about RICH people but I'm just talking about blue collar guys with a high school education. Mind you I begrudge nobody their good fortunes but when it's as far out of whack as it is right now... you get to take some arrows...
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:24:30 AM EST
The head of the union. He gets all the rewards, and gets his pay whent hey go on strike. The workers get a small percentage of their wages when they go on strike!

In this day and age, unions are NO longer effective.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:26:42 AM EST
It depends. At the big companies, such as airlines, the employee works for the company, and the union bargains collectively on his behalf, and hammers out a contract that binds the parties. At the trades unions, the IBEWs and such, the employee works for the union, who provides the worker to the company on an as-needed basis.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:28:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:30:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:33:35 AM EST
im just curious how much does a guy with a few years in that union make? just ballpark?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:33:57 AM EST

They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and...


My. The "American dream" used to require one income. Now it requires two incomes. Yet somwhow nobody noticed the change. Strange. Damn those union thugs.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:34:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
im just curious how much does a guy with a few years in that union make? just ballpark?


journeyman carpenter makes about 40 an hr in California.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:37:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and...


My. The "American dream" used to require one income. Now it requires two incomes. Yet somwhow nobody noticed the change. Strange. Damn those union thugs.


Right...and the standard of living has not changed one bit in the past 50 years?????

I remember watching DVDs on a HDTV back when we were landing on the Moon..

I remember back-up cameras in the family sedan

Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:39:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
Karl Marx, V.I. Lenin and Josef Stalin.

Colonel Hurtz


beat me to it.

They ain't working for themselves, that's for sure...

which makes them slaves.


I spent the last 10 years of my life, 4 years of college, and tens of thousands of dollars in the single-minded pursuit of my dream job. I've attained it. The job is unionized. I'm a gun-owning, truck-driving god-fearing conservative. Who am I a slave to again?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:42:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
Karl Marx, V.I. Lenin and Josef Stalin.

Colonel Hurtz


beat me to it.

They ain't working for themselves, that's for sure...

which makes them slaves.


I spent the last 10 years of my life, 4 years of college, and tens of thousands of dollars in the single-minded pursuit of my dream job. I've attained it. The job is unionized. I'm a gun-owning, truck-driving god-fearing conservative. Who am I a slave to again?


Since you're in a union, you really can't call yourself conservative.

Why is it that unions overwhelmingly support Democrats?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:44:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Pontius:

They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and...


My. The "American dream" used to require one income. Now it requires two incomes. Yet somwhow nobody noticed the change. Strange. Damn those union thugs.


Right...and the standard of living has not changed one bit in the past 50 years?????

I remember watching DVDs on a HDTV back when we were landing on the Moon..

I remember back-up cameras in the family sedan



That's why I said "American Dream" and specifically avoided the words "Standard of Living." The point remains, the "average" American family has two earners now. That is not progress - that is the orphaning of the next generation. Not a positive outcome. I fail to see why a union guy should be decried for upward pay ambition.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:46:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By Pontius:
It depends. At the big companies, such as airlines, the employee works for the company, and the union bargains collectively on his behalf, and hammers out a contract that binds the parties. At the trades unions, the IBEWs and such, the employee works for the union, who provides the worker to the company on an as-needed basis.


It's hugely important to remember the vast majority of "union workers" these days work for .gov. AFSCME is THE big union these days.



Here in the PRK govt employee salaries and benefits have gone thru the roof. Their productivity has gone thru the floor. unions suck sack. It should be illegal for govt employees to unionize.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:50:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Pontius:

They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and...


My. The "American dream" used to require one income. Now it requires two incomes. Yet somwhow nobody noticed the change. Strange. Damn those union thugs.


Right...and the standard of living has not changed one bit in the past 50 years?????

I remember watching DVDs on a HDTV back when we were landing on the Moon..

I remember back-up cameras in the family sedan



That's why I said "American Dream" and specifically avoided the words "Standard of Living." The point remains, the "average" American family has two earners now. That is not progress - that is the orphaning of the next generation. Not a positive outcome. I fail to see why a union guy should be decried for upward pay ambition.


JOIN A UNION

DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!1!1

Bullshit.

Tell me again why a guy with a high school diploma, no trade skill set, who trims rubber flashing from tires is worth $22 an hour?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:51:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 8:53:01 AM EST by -AR18-]
Management always has the workers well being formost in their thoughts. Your supervisor is your friend and will look out for you at all times. You will always be givin a fair shake by the corporation you work for. People that are fired or laid off always deserve it. Corporate profit and CEOs benefits are never thought of as more important than the people who are by and large the reason a company can operate.
God that was fun sounding like a complete idiot. The best part about anti union dribble is when it is a frikin SUIT making the statements.
Union workers work for the same people all wage (and salary) slaves work for. Their FAMILY. Putting food on the table and shoes on the feet.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:52:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By GT86:
Since you're in a union, you really can't call yourself conservative.


Bullshit, that's like saying if you're black you can't call yourself a conservative.


Originally Posted By GT86:
Why is it that unions overwhelmingly support Democrats?


Because most conservatives go out of their way to piss of the rank and file with sentiments such as if found in this thread. Really, the Democrats pander much better to all special interests. The unions "think" they have a better deal going with the Dems, but it's a bunch of empty promises. As a reminder union dues money cannot be used for political contributions. Campaign donations must be funneled through a entirely voluntary PAC donations.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:54:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By rob78:
Tell me again why a guy with a high school diploma, no trade skill set, who trims rubber flashing from tires is worth $22 an hour?


We can play this game. What do you do, who do you do it for, and what do you make? We'll play comparisons.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:56:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:


That's why I said "American Dream" and specifically avoided the words "Standard of Living." The point remains, the "average" American family has two earners now. That is not progress - that is the orphaning of the next generation. Not a positive outcome. I fail to see why a union guy should be decried for upward pay ambition.


Perhaps that has something to do with changing values. Families used to save and live within their means. But more and more these days, people want the expensive toys, the houses, the cars, the vacations, and need to have two incomes to pay for what they really can't afford. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that governemtn is taking an ever increasing percentage of income away from the middle class, so people need to bring in more money to stay afloat.

Point is, unions do not provide the AMerican dream, and in fact are doing a great deal to damage it. People shouldn't be decried for wanting to earn more. But they should be ashamed if they rely on the union to accomplish that.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:57:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:04:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

Originally Posted By rob78:
Tell me again why a guy with a high school diploma, no trade skill set, who trims rubber flashing from tires is worth $22 an hour?


We can play this game. What do you do, who do you do it for, and what do you make? We'll play comparisons.


What do you do?
Grants Writer, Transportation Planner

who do you do it for?
Privately owned small businesses and the government

what do you make?
Less than $22 an hour as a transportation planner.

Double bachelors from University of Tennessee.
I've done the manual labor buddy, from landscaping, to waiting tables, to loading semi-trailers with frozen food at 12 hour shifts.

I went to school, made something of myself. At no point during the aforementioned manual labor jobs do I feel as though my work was worth $22 an hour.

You and your ilk are solely responsible for the continued outsourcing taking place in this country.
When your remedial jobs are gone, I'll still be working and pardon me if I don't shed a tear for you guys.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:05:06 AM EST
It probably depends on the kind of union, the companies involved and the kind of work.

I'm in a union at a corporation and since I'm a stock holder. I've always viewed it as I'm working for the benefit of the owners, such as me. :P It tends to piss off the union guys and the management, but it has always seemed the most logical way of viewing my job. I've had a few interesting conversations with some of the highest people in management and my viewpoint has confused the hell out of them. They've not argued with my viewpoint. They just don't like that I don't view them as alpha males (if you're trying to be one, then you're not).
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:13:01 AM EST
You CAN be in a union and be a conservative. To think otherwise is being ignorant.

It is the unions themselves and what they have become that have correupted the workers within the unions, not the other way around.

There is a reason conservatives, in general, do not form trade or worker unions. Unions are for the collective (sound familar?), conservatives are individualistic.

There is a such a thing as being *forced* into a union job and not want to be. I know of a few teachers that do NOT want to be in the local or national teaches union, but they have to be in order to not be hung out to dry by the other teachers. I know other unions are similar.

Unions can kiss my ass. They are one reason I did not become a teacher.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:20:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
"Work?"

Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:22:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

Originally Posted By GT86:
Since you're in a union, you really can't call yourself conservative.


Bullshit, that's like saying if you're black you can't call yourself a conservative.


Originally Posted By GT86:
Why is it that unions overwhelmingly support Democrats?


Because most conservatives go out of their way to piss of the rank and file with sentiments such as if found in this thread. Really, the Democrats pander much better to all special interests. The unions "think" they have a better deal going with the Dems, but it's a bunch of empty promises. As a reminder union dues money cannot be used for political contributions. Campaign donations must be funneled through a entirely voluntary PAC donations.


Nice way to work the race card in there. But the fact is, you chose to be in a union. You made the decision to be part of an organization that works against the free market, and works against the concept of capitalism. You chose to be part of an organization that has very Marxist tendencies. Your choice, but don't try to claim the conservative label.

And what's up with drawing a distinction between most conservatives and the so-called rank and file? Are rank and file people not able to be conservatives? Are union people easily fooled by "empty promises"?

And you can justify it however you want, but the fact remains that unions support Democrats. Who are they going to endorse in 2008? Will that person have a (D) or an (R) by their name? By supporting the union, you are in effect helping to support Democrats. Doesn't reconcile nicely with your attempted use of the conservative label, does it?



Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:25:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Partisan:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By Pontius:
It depends. At the big companies, such as airlines, the employee works for the company, and the union bargains collectively on his behalf, and hammers out a contract that binds the parties. At the trades unions, the IBEWs and such, the employee works for the union, who provides the worker to the company on an as-needed basis.


It's hugely important to remember the vast majority of "union workers" these days work for .gov. AFSCME is THE big union these days.



Here in the PRK govt employee salaries and benefits have gone thru the roof. Their productivity has gone thru the floor. unions suck sack. It should be illegal for govt employees to unionize.


That is an awfully broad brush you're painting with..... In the major metro areas you may be correct but the more rural areas that certainly isn't the case.

Do California lawmakers have a union? Fabian Nunez - Demo Assy Speaker(?) makes ~$130k/year AND gets $170/day per diem each day the legislature is in session......

Brian
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:27:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

I spent the last 10 years of my life, 4 years of college, and tens of thousands of dollars in the single-minded pursuit of my dream job. I've attained it. The job is unionized. I'm a gun-owning, truck-driving god-fearing conservative. Who am I a slave to again?


Keep patting yourself on the back while your union dues are supporting Socialist politicians and causes
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:32:26 AM EST
To all the union members here. Who was sworn in?
Did you take an oath to support trade unionism?

Colonel Hurtz
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 9:52:39 AM EST
And you work for McDonalds???
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:01:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By rob78:
What do you do?
Grants Writer, Transportation Planner
Who do you do it for?
Privately owned small businesses and the government

The pure capitalism argument is already out the window. You help your organizations secure funding from the government, and/or help the government spend it's money on transport. The source of all this capital? Me, you, and that tire factory guy, taken from all of us at gunpoint. You nor I operate in Adam Smith's paradise. You move stolen money for a living, I and the tire trimmer extort from our employers. So be it.


what do you make?
Less than $22 an hour as a transportation planner.

$22/hour and a 40 hour week approximates $44,000/year. You say "less" so we'll play with $40,000 year. I have no idea how many kids you have, but the povery line for a family of 4 is $20,700. Congratulations on that note. Yet the TN median family income is $49,800, and the family of 4 median is $60,100. Frankly, $40k a year makes two bachelors degrees look like a lousy investment. A single guy can do fine on that, but a to raise a family well on that income would reguire discipline and fortitude that most of society doesn't posses.

Double bachelors from University of Tennessee.
I've done the manual labor buddy, from landscaping, to waiting tables, to loading semi-trailers with frozen food at 12 hour shifts. I went to school, made something of myself. At no point during the aforementioned manual labor jobs do I feel as though my work was worth $22 an hour.

Why not? Poor self-esteem? Drving a decent car, renting your own apartment, feeding an ammo habit and saving a little for the future (which is pretty much all a single guy can do on 40K) is too much to ask for working hard all week? Further, a waiter can blow right through $22/hour working at a nice place. Is their skillset truly worth hundreds per night? Maybe, but I don't need to make that judgement. I'm glad he/she did well. I too have loaded semi-trailers in the middle of the night as well, for $11.18/hr. It sucked, so I quit. It would have required more than $22/hr to keep me there at 2am. So how could I begrudge somebody who makes decent coin doing something I didn't want to, even if the skillset is non-existent?


You and your ilk are solely responsible for the continued outsourcing taking place in this country. When your remedial jobs are gone, I'll still be working and pardon me if I don't shed a tear for you guys.

Because corporate masters are so benevelont that they really want to keep work here. Doubtful. The Mexican minimum wage is 1/6th that of the United States. If the UAW showed up tomorrow, tore up their contract, and worked for minimum wage GM/Chrysler would STILL send work offshore. Solely responsible? This has nothing to do with the Indonesian worker who can legally do it for $5 dollars per day?


Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:03:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By ColonelHurtz:
To all the union members here. Who was sworn in?
Did you take an oath to support trade unionism?
Colonel Hurtz


No.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:17:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By GT86:
And what's up with drawing a distinction between most conservatives and the so-called rank and file? Are rank and file people not able to be conservatives? Are union people easily fooled by "empty promises"?


I am the rank and file. So are you: "The people who form the major portion of a group, organization, or society, excluding the leaders and officers."

If you walked up to the average Joe on the street he couldn't articulate the difference between a republican and democrat. The average American is an idiot. Sad, but you know it's the truth. He couldn't explain what a trade deficit is, and would be lucky to find Iran on a map. That guy is your coworkers, that guy is my coworkers, and that guy is the tire trimmer's coworkers. If that guy sees a guy with an R next to his name blast labor on TV one night, he thinks "Gee I work hard at my union job, it pays alright, that guy must be an A-hole." Exactly the same thing you and I think when Hillary talks about guns.



Originally Posted By GT86:
And you can justify it however you want, but the fact remains that unions support Democrats. Who are they going to endorse in 2008? Will that person have a (D) or an (R) by their name? By supporting the union, you are in effect helping to support Democrats. Doesn't reconcile nicely with your attempted use of the conservative label, does it?


The same leap of logic means that if you own a Leatherman you are a communist. Leatherman = anti-gun = pro-democrat = communist.



Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:17:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By GT86:
Since you're in a union, you really can't call yourself conservative.
Why is it that unions overwhelmingly support Democrats?


Give me a break.....

A huge number of Union members are gun loving conservatives. The union leadership is going to support the candidates who are pro-union. If Democrats were pro-gun, this wouldn't be an issue. If Republicans were pro-union, this wouldn't be an issue. Democrats are pro-union therefore unions support Democrats.


You support the union, the union supports Democrats, therefore you support Democrats. You also support a socialist organization, not very conservative of you. Your dues go to support a group that helps empower Dems. You belong to an organization that is based in large part on socialist ideology. You made your choice, but don't try to twist that around into calling yourself a conservative.

And this isn't just about "gun loving". I dislike the Dems for many reasons, only one of which is their stance on gun rights.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:21:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
Management always has the workers well being formost in their thoughts. Your supervisor is your friend and will look out for you at all times. You will always be givin a fair shake by the corporation you work for. People that are fired or laid off always deserve it. Corporate profit and CEOs benefits are never thought of as more important than the people who are by and large the reason a company can operate.
God that was fun sounding like a complete idiot. The best part about anti union dribble is when it is a frikin SUIT making the statements.
Union workers work for the same people all wage (and salary) slaves work for. Their FAMILY. Putting food on the table and shoes on the feet.





And another thing...

Labor is not just a commodity even though CEOs treat it like such.
Collective bargaining is not contrary to capitalism.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:40:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By rob78:
What does it say about your job when "the indonesian worker who can legally do it for $5 a day" does do it...and does it better?
Pay should be based on individual ability and merit NOT because of who you know or what organization you belong to. The inflated union wage base results in higher costs for domestically produced products...it "hurts" everyone.
It's time to come back to reality. You aren't special. 5 year old indonesian kids can do your job for less than 15% of your pay. You don't like it? learn a trade or go to school and make yourself valuable.


I guess that means that the cost of living in a shack is lower than renting in the US. The "dumping" of low cost items produced at the expense of peoples lives and well being is more harmful than a fair cost of an item because of a fair wage being paid to an American worker.
5 year old Indonesian kids can produce cheap junk cheaper than a US adult. That is just twisted that you would see that as having merit. Not all jobs require secondary education. Most manufacturing jobs are OJT. That doesn't mean that it is unskilled.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:41:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By -AR18-:
Putting food on the table and shoes on the feet.



and putting candidates in office that strip away your freedoms.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:41:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
Originally Posted By GT86:

Even at $10 an hour, US labor can not compete with the slave labor over seas. Or the low wages in Mexico.


This is true only if American labor produces equal-to-overseas products.

But for years (some say a decade) we've seen US-produced goods (automobiles for one) suffer in quality even though the labor union assures us that they're "the best".

Domestic auto manufacturers quality has suffered so much, the US consumer isn't buying them.

Our workers are paid 9 times as much, but produce the same or substandard products.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:48:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By rob78:
"Grants" for small businesses is a misnomer. It's a loan program at 2% below prime.


Why? Because small business need an advantage? Because large coporations have intrinsic advantages and power in the marketplace? Either way the government is tampering with the market and using police power-extracted, taxpayer dollars to finance it. Not pure capitalism.


Originally Posted By rob78:
Yeah tax dollars pay for roads, you telling me you don't drive on 'em? So no, it's still pure capitalism.


I drive on roads, but that doesn't make them paved with pure capitalism. They are paved on siezed land, payed for with taxes. A toll road, the original turnpike - now that would be pure capitalism.


Originally Posted By rob78:
Pay should be based on individual ability and merit NOT because of who you know or what organization you belong to. The inflated union wage base results in higher costs for domestically produced products...it "hurts" everyone.


How bout you "deflate" your salary and return half to your employer / clients. You'll be doing your part in "helping" everyone. I predict a reluctance.


Originally Posted By rob78:
It's time to come back to reality. You aren't special. 5 year old indonesian kids can do your job for less than 15% of your pay. You don't like it? learn a trade or go to school and make yourself valuable.


....And and Indian can be trained to do your job for a similar fraction of your pay. Count your blessings.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:50:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 10:51:23 AM EST by Bob1984]
They work for the union bosses. In many lines of work, union membership is mandatory and serves as a defense for mediocre employees. Unions serve as the providers of excuses for lost productivity.

I would have less of a problem with unions if membership were voluntary and if more businesses became open shops. A little competition every now and then is good for the economy. Being a union member ought to be a choice.

I'm a little miffed at unions right now because the organization I am trying to apply for a job with is having a hard time renewing a contract with their union. This has led to a major delay in the hiring process for the organization in question.

Because of this, I am stuck sitting on my ass waiting to be interviewed when I really should be working already. By far, this organization offers the best pay and best benefits out of any entry-level job in my area (head and shoulders above the rest) so I am willing to wait, though I am annoyed.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:14:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By rob78:
But for years (some say a decade) we've seen US-produced goods (automobiles for one) suffer in quality even though the labor union assures us that they're "the best".
Domestic auto manufacturers quality has suffered so much, the US consumer isn't buying them. Our workers are paid 9 times as much, but produce the same or substandard products.


Quality is much more a function of design than assembly. My UAW assembled Chevy rolls around with $10,000 worth of new parts underneath at 130,000 miles, while my UAW assembled Toyota runs flawlessly. Where is the difference? The engineering is the difference. So you find over the years that your assemblers can't reliably put Peg A in Hole A, and keeps putting it in Hole B instead. Just make the connectors different and the problem is solved.

Really, how many problems in an average Chevy can be traced to the guy who assembled it? Very few compared to the consistently poor design descisions. The fact that every Chevy fuel pump fails at 110,000 miles has little to do with the guy on the assembly line - that's a problem for the office dwellers.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:22:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By rob78:
Pay should be based on individual ability and merit NOT because of who you know or what organization you belong to. The inflated union wage base results in higher costs for domestically produced products...it "hurts" everyone.


How bout you "deflate" your salary and return half to your employer / clients. You'll be doing your part in "helping" everyone. I predict a reluctance.

Originally Posted By rob78:
It's time to come back to reality. You aren't special. 5 year old indonesian kids can do your job for less than 15% of your pay. You don't like it? learn a trade or go to school and make yourself valuable.


....And and Indian can be trained to do your job for a similar fraction of your pay. Count your blessings.


Nope, not quite. An indian who attended school in the US perhaps, but I've noticed there aren't a whole lot of Grants Writer positions going overseas. I must have missed the headlines "Grants Writers being outsourced due to labor costs".

Whereas Billybob working the lug nut machine is in a predicament.


By the way, that same "police power" government protects your precious union jobs.

Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:24:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

Originally Posted By rob78:
But for years (some say a decade) we've seen US-produced goods (automobiles for one) suffer in quality even though the labor union assures us that they're "the best".
Domestic auto manufacturers quality has suffered so much, the US consumer isn't buying them. Our workers are paid 9 times as much, but produce the same or substandard products.


Quality is much more a function of design than assembly. My UAW assembled Chevy rolls around with $10,000 worth of new parts underneath at 130,000 miles, while my UAW assembled Toyota runs flawlessly. Where is the difference? The engineering is the difference. So you find over the years that your assemblers can't reliably put Peg A in Hole A, and keeps putting it in Hole B instead. Just make the connectors different and the problem is solved.

Really, how many problems in an average Chevy can be traced to the guy who assembled it? Very few compared to the consistently poor design descisions. The fact that every Chevy fuel pump fails at 110,000 miles has little to do with the guy on the assembly line - that's a problem for the office dwellers.


Fair Enough...agreed and noted
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:27:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:
They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and..


Thats called the American Dream. Anyone that works hard for a living in a skilled trade, including yourself deserve to live it.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:29:26 AM EST
They work for their self interests. Sometimes that even coincides with their members needs.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:29:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:

Originally Posted By macman37:
They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and..


Thats called the American Dream. Anyone that works hard for a living in a skilled trade, including yourself deserve to live it.


I think the "skilled" part is being called into question.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:41:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:

Originally Posted By macman37:
They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and..


Thats called the American Dream. Anyone that works hard for a living in a skilled trade, including yourself deserve to live it.


I think the "skilled" part is being called into question.


Carpentry is a skill, running heavy equipment is a skill, metalsmithing or ironworking is a skill, reading a blueprint, building a car ( or a mechanic ), Heavy labor is a skill as far as Im concerned.

Someone who breaks their back deserves a living wage. They deserve if they work hard to have a vehicle qand afford to maintain it to drive to work. A place to sleep at night and nourishment as well as maybe a vacation once in a great while,..

To say otherwise is a class warfare far left ideology. Shouldnt a conservative mindset reward hard working people at least enough to get by in an expensive economy?

Its real simple, it comes down to the cost of living. Hard working people deserve to at least get by in it, do they not?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:51:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pontius:

They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and...


My. The "American dream" used to require one income. Now it requires two incomes. Yet somehow nobody noticed the change. Strange. Damn those union thugs.


I agree with you to a point, but The American Dream generally consisted of one car, one phone (landline) one 1700 sq ft home, one spouse, one family. No cell phone bill, no cable or satellite, or Internet bill. No huge insurance bills.

I'm just barely old enough to vaguely remember it.


Link Posted: 10/10/2007 11:55:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By Storm_Tracker:

Originally Posted By macman37:
They work their for their huge houses, boats, and vacation properties, and jet-skis and snowmobiles and motorhomes and cruises and ... and ... and..


Thats called the American Dream. Anyone that works hard for a living in a skilled trade, including yourself deserve to live it.


I think the "skilled" part is being called into question.


Carpentry is a skill, running heavy equipment is a skill, metalsmithing or ironworking is a skill, reading a blueprint, building a car ( or a mechanic ), Heavy labor is a skill as far as Im concerned.

Someone who breaks their back deserves a living wage. They deserve if they work hard to have a vehicle qand afford to maintain it to drive to work. A place to sleep at night and nourishment as well as maybe a vacation once in a great while,..

To say otherwise is a class warfare far left ideology. Shouldnt a conservative mindset reward hard working people at least enough to get by in an expensive economy?

Its real simple, it comes down to the cost of living. Hard working people deserve to at least get by in it, do they not?


Heavy labor I don't consider a skill, but metalwork, welding, plumbing, electrical work, carpentry/masonry, flying a plane, sailing a boat I do. Actually, I consider them trades.

Lifting a mower deck onto an assembly line, pulling a tire from a mold, pushing a cart filled with metal/rubber scrap, among others are not skilled labor and certainly not trades.

I was a damn good truck loader at one time. I worked my ass off on those frozen/cold-as-hell docks. I stacked 'em quick, in a stable fashion, and most importantly...in the correct stop sequence. My counterpart called in sick on occasion, fucked stuff up, and generally did a half-assed job. I got a raise and he didn't after 6 months. Fact is, the SOAB should've been fired, but he wasn't due to affirmative action
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 12:12:46 PM EST
I worked as a NON union electrician for 18 yrs, before joining the Union. I have Diplomas, state licenses, etc.., and a vast amount of "on the job" experience. I take offense at the folks who would call me "uneducated" because I lack a college diploma, or because I didn't spend thousands on such an education. I provide a service to many college educated advanced degree holders who have no clue about what I do, or what it takes to do it. Do you know how many very wealthy people, degreed people, have no clue how to reset a simple breaker in their electrical box? Some folks don't know what a blown fuse looks like. Some people are just downright scared to go near electricity, except to plug or unplug something. I provide a service that could save your life, or your family's lives. I build the businesses that you college people earn your living in. Where would you work without skilled tradesmen building your office buildings. Where would you go to play with your riches, without highly skilled men and women, building these resorts and vacation spots? You need highly skilled tradesmen, that you can trust and have confidence in.

If a plumber makes a mistake, get a mop. If a carpenter makes a mistake, cut another piece of wood. If I make a mistake, I could burn down your house or business, possibly kill your family, and possibly cause you financial ruin.

How dare anyone tell me that I am UNskilled, or overpaid? I've put in my time, (19 yrs), I've paid my dues. So, why do I not deserve a good wage and health insurance? Why can I not have a pension plan? Am I not allowed to plan for my future, after working? I pay into my pension, and my Health and Welfare funds. I sweat at work. I have bled at work. I bust my ass to put food on the table for my family, and to provide them with many things that I never had as a kid. Now, I'm some kind of chump for being in a Union?

Bullshit! In 18 yrs as a non-union guy, I had health insurance for about 4 of those years, and had 2 paid vacations. IN EIGHTEEN YEARS! I guess when someone gives their all to an employer, they deserve NOTHING but a paycheck in return.

I have seen many Union guys that fit the fat, lazy stereotype quite well. We need to change that, no doubt. But don't group all of the Unions together, because we are all different.
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