I wonder why the Jewish people were so submissive.

How did they get in such a situation?

I thought the Jewish people were fierce warriors.



ETA: My Mother was Jewish

oh my, this one's gonna be nasty

tag

wang, this thread is restricted so don't tell em you're jewish

might as well get this in now while I still have the chance...

IBTL

You'll find out in about 10 years if you try to stand up for the constitution and what is right.

It's the boiling frog theory at work.

Warsaw Ghetto


Also, nobody started off thinking they were going to end up in a gas chamber.  

Well, having a Jewish wife, and my experiences with the inlaws on her side, I can say this: generations of knuckling under and trying to avoid persecution. My inlaws wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do if they were a crime victim, other than call 911. Let alone if bad folk were going door to door herding them into buses.

My wife's great grandfather left Germany in the mid-30s; he saw the shit coming down. But not everyone could get away, even if they wanted to.

I expect a flame-fest here, so I best get the suit out.

IBTL

Most civilian populations are quite docile, especially in the west.  

IBTL

"And today, when I am asked that question, I tell people it doesn't matter whether you're Hungarian, Polish, Jewish, or German: If you don't have a gun, you have nothing."
~ Menashe Lorinczi, Auschwitz survivor on why Jews didn't resist in Auschwitz.

Quoted: You need to study a lot more history. Submissiveness in the face of despotism, robbery, rape and murder is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to the Jewish people. The Romans counted upon it with conquered peoples and it usually worked, but not always. The Romans were not the only ruthless armies who counted on it by a long shot. I think (unfortunately) that you will find that we...the people of the US...will respond by and large in exactly the same way should something similar happen here one of these days.

he obviously ignored the recent gun confiscation in nawlins of Americans BY Americans...

none fought back...

Quoted: Quoted: You need to study a lot more history. Submissiveness in the face of despotism, robbery, rape and murder is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to the Jewish people. The Romans counted upon it with conquered peoples and it usually worked, but not always. The Romans were not the only ruthless armies who counted on it by a long shot. I think (unfortunately) that you will find that we...the people of the US...will respond by and large in exactly the same way should something similar happen here one of these days. he obviously ignored the recent gun confiscation in nawlins of Americans BY Americans... none fought back...

Well at least ONE old lady fought back.

Maybe she was Jewish and she remembers.........

Quoted: Quoted: You need to study a lot more history. Submissiveness in the face of despotism, robbery, rape and murder is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to the Jewish people. The Romans counted upon it with conquered peoples and it usually worked, but not always. The Romans were not the only ruthless armies who counted on it by a long shot. I think (unfortunately) that you will find that we...the people of the US...will respond by and large in exactly the same way should something similar happen here one of these days. he obviously ignored the recent gun confiscation in nawlins of Americans BY Americans... none fought back...

Well except for that one old woman...and you see how much outrage that caused

I think alot of them though it would get better and did not leave when they had the chance. Remember that Hitler originally wanted to simply deport all jews out of Germany. Problem was no other country wanted them including the USA. Boatloads of refugies were turned away. At the point that they knew something bad was going to happen it was too late. They were already disarmed and at the mercy of the Nazi's. Some did fight back like at the Warsaw Ghetto of course they were all killed to the man, but better that than the gas chamber. I really think the Jewish  (Isreal) people learned something after the war.

Quoted: You need to study a lot more history. Submissiveness in the face of despotism, robbery, rape and murder is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to the Jewish people. The Romans counted upon it with conquered peoples and it usually worked, but not always. The Romans were not the only ruthless armies who counted on it by a long shot. I think (unfortunately) that you will find that we...the people of the US...will respond by and large in exactly the same way should something similar happen here one of these days.

I guess that is why I'm armed to the teeth and have set aside supplies to counter such a situation. I refuse to be a frog in a pot.

Alvin

Quoted: Warsaw Ghetto

+1

If you read the story of the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto, the Nazis had to burn down/dynamite every building and pump poison gas through the sewers to kill or flush out everyone.  Plenty of stories of great courage on the part of the Jews.  

Martin Niemöller (1892—1984), Protestant pastor and social activist

   * Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
     habe ich geschwiegen;
     ich war ja kein Kommunist.

     Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
     habe ich geschwiegen;
     ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

     Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
     habe ich nicht protestiert;
     ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

     Als sie die Juden holten,
     habe ich nicht protestiert;
     ich war ja kein Jude.

     Als sie mich holten,
     gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.

Translation:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Jews and Gun Control

Fear of Freedom or Freedom from Fear?

<snip>

Looking Back With Longing to Victimhood

For Jews in exile a "ghetto" mindset replaced memories of nationhood. This was not, however, a new phenomenon. Jews had previously stayed with the familiar, even when it was very nasty, and even when offered a choice. Moses, a very wise man, was dismayed by some Jews -- newly-freed after two centuries of slavery in Egypt -- who rejected freedom. Some even were sorry to have left Egypt.(15) The were so immersed in corrupt Egyptian practices that they made and worshipped a golden calf, even before Moses had come down from Mt.Sinai.(16)

These Jews went astray because the Egyptians had so completely crushed Jewish self-confidence. Thus:

   * the miracles accompanying the Exodus from Egypt;
   * the utter destruction of the pursuing Egyptian Army;
   * the revelation of the Torah on Mt. Sinai;

were not enough to convince many Jews that they could trust G-d's goodness.

There is solid proof of this. Moses sent a dozen spies to take a first look at Canaan. Two came back and declared for an immediate start to the conquest of Canaan; ten returned disheartened. The majority said the Canaanites were so huge and powerful that Jews were like "tiny grasshoppers" by comparison.(17) Angered by this lack of faith, the A-mighty finally decreed that Jews would travel the Sinai for 40 years, until a new generation -- free from the slave mindset -- took charge. These Jews would possess Israel.(18)

Jacob's descendants were so psychologically brutalized by two centuries of servitude in Egypt, that they had completely forgotten their ancestors' dedication to Freedom. It is thus understandable how thoroughly brutalized Jews became in the 1,800 years separating the Roman conquest from Israel's re-establishment in 1948.

Jews were viciously persecuted -- at least occasionally -- by nearly everykind of government, in a range of ways. Governments forced Jews to wear special clothing, live in ghettos, pay extra taxes, not engage in specified trades or professions, etc. Even when governments created anti-Semitism - or aroused latent anti-Semitism -- for political or financial gain, Jews' respect for tradition moved them to obey these governments' enactments.

Most Jews' minds were bent by this long victimization, just as enslavement in Egypt had psychologically damaged many Jews to the point where they rejected Freedom and longed for the "comforts" of Egypt. Thus, many modern Jews do not know that for the first third of Jewish history, Jews were fighters, activists ready to defend themselves and their right to worship as we are commanded.

Some modern Jews even believe their oppressors' propaganda, that Jews somehow deserve to suffer. That is not surprising. A victim of a violent criminal may try to avoid "dangerous situations", feeling the attack resulted from some personal negligence. Sometimes a hostage even sympathizes with the kidnapper.

The tradition of accepting "victimhood." -- the "ghetto"mindset - produces "leaders" who are resigned to, and even glory in -being victims.


<snip>

Sobibor

Its several things.

They had hope and believed what the Nazis told them.  They were only being resettled and if they didnt fight back, they would be allowed to live.  They would lose their possessions but no harm would come to them.  Many believed this and didnt fight back.  Hope is a powerful weapon.  The trustee Jews were even more cruel to their own people then the Nazis.  But they wanted to survive.

Liberalism runs deep in the Jewish faith and even today the evidence is there.  There were Jewish warriors in the past, but thats not what is valued in the Jewish community.  So they became teachers, lawyers, doctors but no many became military people.

Learned submission.  You get beat down enough and most people will just lie down and get shot.  In experiments with dogs, if you shock them enough but dont let them escape, they wont even try to fight back.  They wont even yell if there is pain.  

Lack of a vibrant and cohesion making leader.

This has occured in many many socieities and countries.  It has happened in Cambodia, Armenia, Russia. Many places.

Also a lot of these countries didnt have weapons lying around.  Weapons were rounded up and confiscated.  In Red Dawn, the commies used the gun registration records to get all the guns.

I think it could even happen here.  It really depends how it was implemented and how skilled in deception are the people in power.

it's one of those things like the way the US is headed today... They take away your liberties one little bit at a time, and each time it blows over after a short bit, then they go again for another bite.
It wasn't overnight that the message went out "hey, jews.. we've got trains waiting to take you to these fun camps where you can wait out the war in safety"... it was more like, first we make you unpopular w/ public, then we slowly move to remove your fiscal powers (talking about folks like execs, shareholders, etc, being forced off the market, assets effectively stolen (shareholders being forced out of companies, eminent domain being used)) while removing legislative capabilities (no money = no lawyers, unpopular = won't stand up in court anyway), and so on, until they're put in a ghetto, and, well, just a matter of getting people into the mindset of cattle...

Don't you think that a Good Percentage of Americans are Fat, Lazy, Pacifists ignorant of the principles and ideas that this Country was founded on
Driven only to seek Entertainment, Material Goods and Pleasure

Think about the Millions of Americans that Refuse to own a firearm yet at the sound of breaking glass will dial 911 and expect someone else ( the Cops ) to show up deal with an intruder and perhaps Kill that intruder for them

What about all the people that scream they want OBL and every other Terrorist's head on a platter but refuse to join the military ( too fat lazy out of shape undisciplined scared ) and Balk of the idea that their precious Children might someday serve in the military

A lot of Jews saw bad times coming for them at the hands of the Nazis and tried to flee Europe, but were turned away by the anti-Semitic American and British foreign ministry establishments.  They had no choice but to return to Europe.

That, plus I doubt any of them conceived how bad things turned out as they did.  Why did the Japanese submit passively to concentration camps instead of fighting the US government?

Quoted: I thought the Jewish people were fierce warriors.

That's the most insane thing I've ever heard.

Quoted: I think it could even happen here.

It did happen here, except the genocide part.  A whole genos was rounded up and impounded in WWII, but on the grounds of national security, not because we wanted to purge our nation of them.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought the Jewish people were fierce warriors. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard.

Ever read the history of modern Israel?  Do you know where the word "zealot" comes from?

Quoted: it's one of those things like the way the US is headed today... They take away your liberties one little bit at a time, and each time it blows over after a short bit, then they go again for another bite. It wasn't overnight that the message went out "hey, jews.. we've got trains waiting to take you to these fun camps where you can wait out the war in safety"... it was more like, first we make you unpopular w/ public, then we slowly move to remove your fiscal powers (talking about folks like execs, shareholders, etc, being forced off the market, assets effectively stolen (shareholders being forced out of companies, eminent domain being used)) while removing legislative capabilities (no money = no lawyers, unpopular = won't stand up in court anyway), and so on, until they're put in a ghetto, and, well, just a matter of getting people into the mindset of cattle...

Think about how they were herded into the Gas Chambers under the guise that they were going to take showers
After several days of being cramped on the Cattle Cars they were reassured with the promise of a Shower and all the Clothes Hooks had numbers on them
As they would hang their clothes up they were told "Be sure to remember what the number above the hook is so you can find your clothes when you get out"

Quoted: I wonder why the Jewish people were so submissive. How did they get in such a situation? I thought the Jewish people were fierce warriors. ETA: My Mother was Jewish

Out of curiosity how did the thousands of heavily armed US soldiers end up in POW camps, often worked to death or just killed by the Japanese? Why were they so submissive? How did they get in such a situation? I thought US soldiers and marines were fierce warriors?

The Jews and other targeted groups of the Germans or Japanese were "submissive" because they had little or no means of doing otherwise. Despite what a lot of wannabe warriors on this site like to think, if they were faced with the same situation almost everyone here would have ended up in exactly the same gas chambers. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising was almost exclusively waged by young men and women who were single and without children as were most of the other resistance cells of Jews across Europe.

Take US soldiers and marines in Iraq today. Send their wives and children over with them and see how effective they are in fighting the pitiful excuse for soldiers that the insurgents are. Then think of the situation facing millions of Europeans with no access to supplies, with an entire continent dominated by a totalitarian police state that had over 500 active army divisions to carry out state policy.

Tens of millions of non Jewish civilians were also slaughtered in WWII, including over 10 million Soviet citizens and millions of Poles. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs by the Estase, millions of Chinese by the Japanese.

Why do you think Soviet citizens were so sibmissive during the Cold War? Or Chinese in Maoist China? Or Iraqi's under Saddam Hussein? Most likely because they knew they had almost no chance of success if they resisted, and almost certain death, but would likely survive if they kept a low profile.

It took the combined economic output of the US and Soviet Union, millions of soldiers and tens of millions of tons of supplies to defeat the Nazi war machine and yet somehow a few civilians with no base of operations, no production capacity and very limited economic means were meant to fight them?

Next time you get pulled over by the cops for speeding, fight off the cop and see how well that goes for you, how long that lasts. Then consider the same situation with a police force that would happily kill you and your family on the spot for showing any resistance. Many Jews resisted, almost all ended up dead.

Quoted: Its several things. They had hope and believed what the Nazis told them.  They were only being resettled and if they didnt fight back, they would be allowed to live.  They would lose their possessions but no harm would come to them.  Many believed this and didnt fight back.  Hope is a powerful weapon.  The trustee Jews were even more cruel to their own people then the Nazis.  But they wanted to survive. Liberalism runs deep in the Jewish faith and even today the evidence is there.  There were Jewish warriors in the past, but thats not what is valued in the Jewish community.  So they became teachers, lawyers, doctors but no many became military people. Learned submission.  You get beat down enough and most people will just lie down and get shot.  In experiments with dogs, if you shock them enough but dont let them escape, they wont even try to fight back.  They wont even yell if there is pain.   Lack of a vibrant and cohesion making leader. This has occured in many many socieities and countries.  It has happened in Cambodia, Armenia, Russia. Many places. Also a lot of these countries didnt have weapons lying around.  Weapons were rounded up and confiscated.  In Red Dawn, the commies used the gun registration records to get all the guns. It happened here  in the good ole US of A. We rounded up  AMERICANS of Japanes decent and sent them off to camps. We just didn't gas them like the Nazis did. It could happen HERE again, to any group of people the government sees as a threat. Most of us on this forum are already on that list.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought the Jewish people were fierce warriors. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard. Ever read the history of modern Israel?  Do you know where the word "zealot" comes from?

Yeah a zealot, a nut, maybe someone who can't use a light switch on Saturday and who finds his wife so revolting he must bang her through a hole in the bed sheet.

Jews back then shunned physical labor, sports and the military. They strive to use their mind not their muscles. They are traditionally the lawyers, doctors, store keepers, money men etc.

Anti-semitism and pogroms are a fact of life for jews. They never put up much resistance all the times before, but I think they simply couldn't imagine what Hitler had planned for their poor souls.

190 A.D.
Massacre of Jews in England.

1215 A.D.
The Jewish badge introduced.

1240 A.D.
Talmud burned in France.

1290 A.D.
Jews expelled from England.

1298 A.D.
Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.

1306 A.D.
Expulsion from France.

1389 A.D.
MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.

1421 A.D.
270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution

1480 A.D.
Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.

1483 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.

1492 A.D.
ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.

1506 A.D.
Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.

1510 A.D.
EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.

1516 A.D.
Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.

1544 A.D.
The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.

1553 A.D.
Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.

1559 A.D.
12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.

1569 A.D.
POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.

1593 A.D.
EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.

1614 A.D.
JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.

1624 A.D.
GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.

1648 A.D.
Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.

1655 A.D.
Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.

1715 A.D.
POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.

1768 A.D.
20,000 Jews in Poland killed.

1805 A.D.
MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.

1840 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.

1853 A.D.
BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.

1879 A.D.
Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.

1881 A.D.
POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.
KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.

1882 A.D.
FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.

1903 A.D.
APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.
This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.

1905 A.D.
Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.

1919 A.D.
3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.

1920 A.D.
Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.

1938 A.D.
Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.

1939 A.D.
Germany overruns Poland.

1940 A.D.
Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).

1941 A.D.
EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.

1942 A.D.
Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.

1944 A.D.
EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.

1945 A.D.
HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.

1946 A.D.
Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.

1948 A.D.
BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.

1952 A.D.
Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..

1956 A.D.
Jews expelled out of EGYPT.

Quoted: Its several things. They had hope and believed what the Nazis told them.  They were only being resettled and if they didnt fight back, they would be allowed to live.  They would lose their possessions but no harm would come to them.  Many believed this and didnt fight back.  Hope is a powerful weapon.  The trustee Jews were even more cruel to their own people then the Nazis.  But they wanted to survive. Liberalism runs deep in the Jewish faith and even today the evidence is there.  There were Jewish warriors in the past, but thats not what is valued in the Jewish community.  So they became teachers, lawyers, doctors but no many became military people. Learned submission.  You get beat down enough and most people will just lie down and get shot.  In experiments with dogs, if you shock them enough but dont let them escape, they wont even try to fight back.  They wont even yell if there is pain.   Lack of a vibrant and cohesion making leader. This has occured in many many socieities and countries.  It has happened in Cambodia, Armenia, Russia. Many places. Also a lot of these countries didnt have weapons lying around.  Weapons were rounded up and confiscated.  In Red Dawn, the commies used the gun registration records to get all the guns.

What you say may be true about Jews outside Israel, but Militarism holds a high place in Israel - it has to, they are surrounded by enemies.  The founding of Israel can be traced to "Never Again".  So, I think your generalization may be somewhat inaccurate.  Israel has the best military in the entire Middle East.

I would imagine that the Nazis were very deceptive as to their true intentions during the round-ups.

If they didn't convince you, their strong show of force would.

Quoted: Quoted: I thought the Jewish people were fierce warriors. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard.

You don't need to read the histories.  You don't need to visit the Holy Land or see Mossada.

Take a look at a Survivor's arm.  Tatooed with a number.  Listen to their story.  If it doesn't turn you into a warrior I don't know what will.  -Never again.-

From what I gathered, there were several reasons.

Remember, Germany just came out of a huge depression. Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat for the problems. This wasnt the first time Jews have been prosecuted - but they assumed most of it would blow over - and that the German people would eventually see past Hitlers ravings. They never imagined whole death camps being created to exterminate them. Had they known this, I think more would have been done before it was too late.

A lot of them got the hell out of Dodge. There is no wonder so many camps were in Poland. It was one of the few coutnries who allowed Jews to freely move in.  Still, others moves to the US or other nations to get out of Germany.

The Nazis made gun ownership to be undesirable - only thieves and murderers used guns. Thus they were able to outlaw a majority of them. Every country they took over, they further outlawed them. Found a gun in your desk? You were often taken out in the street and shot. Simply put, it got to a point that the Jews were more or less powerless to do anything after a certain point in time.

I dont know why this should be an "IBTL" thread. I just gave a few things that led to their demise -  but I dont have all the answers. One would think we would be able to debate and learn about this subject with out a lot of greif.

Although he's not a Jew, my father was taken as a teenager in Serbia, to a Nazi slave labor camp in Germany. He's always been very anti gun, offering this twisted logic: "I've seen enough guns in my life and what they can do, I don't need to see any more."  

Okay, Dad. Somehow I think American and British troops holding guns had to be a pretty welcomed sight, as opposed to Nazi's with guns, or is that too simplistic?

Quoted: "And today, when I am asked that question, I tell people it doesn't matter whether you're Hungarian, Polish, Jewish, or German: If you don't have a gun, you have nothing." ~ Menashe Lorinczi, Auschwitz survivor on why Jews didn't resist in Auschwitz.

Wow, truer words have never been spoken.  Tag for my new sig line.

--VT