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Posted: 1/18/2002 6:21:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 6:21:59 PM EDT by Armed_Scientist]
Hi, Just was looking at the concepts from this years detroit auto show and was wondering which one you guys wanted to see in production? Ford GT 40: Return of a classic, mid engine 500hp V-8 Cadilac Cien: Carbon fiber dream machine with the edges of a kabar, mide engine 750 horsepower Northstar V-12 Pontiac Soltice: Retroish 2 seat sports car from pontiac. Front mounted engine, rear wheel drive turbo 4 Dodge Razor: Retro esque coup from Dodge, front mounted engine, rear wheel drive turbo-6
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 6:34:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 6:42:12 PM EDT by KBaker]
GT-40 It's on the cover of the current issue of Car and Driver. It's so sexy it should have had a centerfold. That's the first car that's given me wood! Now, if I could only scrape up $100k. Let's see if this links: [img]http://www.caranddriver.com/image_cache/DATA/Caranddriver/images/2002/february/0202_gt40_main.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.caranddriver.com/image_cache/DATA/Caranddriver/images/2002/february/0202_gt40_front.jpg[/img][img]http://www.caranddriver.com/image_cache/DATA/Caranddriver/images/2002/february/0202_gt40_rear.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 6:34:58 PM EDT
Pics? I'll take 750hp.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:26:45 PM EDT
When I returned from Vietnam in 1966, I took my re-enlistment bonus and my combat pay and bought a new Shelby GT-350. That damn car got me in more trouble. What a neat ride though. I've always lusted after a GT-40. I though about building a kit version...but if Ford produces this beast...why bother. I have always had a dream to blast down the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans at 220mph. That GT-40 can do it. Only thing faster...tomcat [-=(_)=-]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:33:37 PM EDT
Better go for the kit. Ford's product development chief says if it is approved, it will go for between $150,000 and $200,000.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:37:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 8:38:36 PM EDT by NH2112]
Hmmm...the International Harvester Scout III - a composite-bodied 4x4, circa 1980. The front end was vaguely reminiscent of a Scout II, with a "fastback" rear body. No rust, lightweight, and stronger/more rigid than steel. [url]http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scouter4/scoutiii.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:39:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:40:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:43:43 PM EDT
I voted for the Cien, I love the new Art and Science look, but I also apreciate the GT-40's history.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:48:47 PM EDT
When my Autoweek came in the mail this week I called to get on the GT40 list. Local dealer hadn't even heard that it was back in concept form. That thing is BAAAAD!
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:00:39 PM EDT
just look at the POSs we have roaming the street as a result of concept dir to street production. hmmmm, prowler (worst functioning car ever) PT cruiser [puke] , avalanche (i dont hate it as much as some, but most here seem to reguard it as the anti-christ) maybe we would be getting ahead if we wernt subject to these wacked concepts.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:22:38 PM EDT
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LOL, CompuServe, i thought there weren't anymore customers left since they laid off just about everyone here at their HQ. I had 7 good years with them, then came AOHell, and the $h!t when downhill from there.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:35:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 9:37:28 PM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By NH2112: Hmmm...the International Harvester Scout III - a composite-bodied 4x4, circa 1980. The front end was vaguely reminiscent of a Scout II, with a "fastback" rear body. No rust, lightweight, and stronger/more rigid than steel. [url]http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scouter4/scoutiii.htm[/url]
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It is on display at the Auburn Cord Dusenburg Museum in Indiana. It is amazing it is over 20 years old and the design still looks good. In person, it looks just as modern as the Jeep Liberty. The GT 40 is a step backwards. ......and people wonder why Ford is in trouble.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 12:52:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wolfpack:
Originally Posted By LWilde: When I returned from Vietnam in 1966, I took my re-enlistment bonus and my combat pay and bought a new Shelby GT-350. That damn car got me in more trouble. What a neat ride though.
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What happened to it??!!!
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Hmmmm...you would ask that. Now...don't blow a gasket on me 'cause hindsight is always 20-20...but I traded it in on a new 1969 Dodge 440 Charger R/T SE. Then I bought a Honda 750cc 4cyl motorcycle too. I was flying then too...so my money was flying out the door. Not just for the toys either. The judge was reaching in my wallet more and more to pay for my intemperate driving habits. After I traded the Shelby, I learned that the kid who bought it from the Dodge dealer blew the engine. Too bad...I had $2,000 in that motor too. It had a Sig Erson cam with 684 total lift and 284 deg duration, 12.5:1 comp Venolia forged pistons, a tricked out crank, rebuilt trans (I blew the first one.), Summers Brothers spiders in the rear end (I blew the first set.), monster Gabriel racing shocks, the fattest racing slicks I could fit in the wheel wells, a scatter shield and fire extinguishers...and a lot of other neat junk. I raced it for a couple of years in SoCal when I could. Then I got ordered overseas again in 1968. Before I left, I decided to buy the Dodge and trade the Shelby. When I returned from Vietnam again in 1969, the Dodge was waiting for me. That was a real hot rod...but with more creature comforts than the Shelby. While I had the Shelby, I tricked it out for racing and it was quick but I could never outdo the other kids with the hot Chevy 327s or even the nicely done 283s. Those cars just breathed better and they made lots of ponies easily. The GT-350 cost me my first fiancé, which was the best thing that ever happened to either of us. I was spending more time with that car than with her...sort of like going to the range or being online nowadays! Then I met my wife and all the boy's toys and fun disappeared. I sold the motorcycle and the Dodge, quit flying (I wasn't very good at it and probably would have killed myself anyway!)I bought a Vega (Hey! I put 177,000 miles on that commuter pig...but with two motors!), went to college, bought a house and became domesticated. Now of course, I wish I had the Shelby...but like I said...20-20! BTW, I have seen some copy-cat GT-350s occasionally. It takes a former Shelby owner to recognize one. I can spot a phony in a second. Don’t be fooled if you ever want to buy one…make sure you research the pedigree and how Carroll Shelby really built those cars. Also, the only real Shelby hot rods…the true racers…were made only in 1965 and 1966. After that, Shelby got out of the business and sold the rights back to Ford. They immediately began the add-on-and-chrome-it revolution leading to the plain vanilla, fat, slow pigs of the late sixties. Only 1969-70with the advent of the 351 Cleveland and 429 motors did Ford recover some of the lost glory. It was Blue...with wide white stripes.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 2:48:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 2:50:05 PM EDT by Tuukka]
I have been wanting a Shelby Mustang ever since i saw Gone In Sixty Seconds...an earlier model would be nice. There is one near by here, i believe it is a 67 model, dont know what engine. The price is approximately $19000, any good compared to US prices.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:08:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 4:10:04 PM EDT by KBaker]
Tuukka: Is it a "real" Shelby? What condition? (You have to be VERY careful when checking out a 3[red]5[/red] year-old car). I have a '67 390 Mustang in VG condition that appraised at $11,900. I paid $10k. Shelby's are considerably rarer and worth more. The GT350 is a small-block car (289-302 depending on year) and the GT500 is a big-block car (428). The GT500's started in 1967. The 500's are worth considerably more than the 350's. A '67 Shelby has side scoops, two "nostril" scoops about halfway back on the hood, a rear spoiler, and segmented tail lights across most of the back fascia. Beware, though, all the fiberglass parts required to make a faux Shelby are easily avaiable. The doorplate or underhood plate should have a "CSX" number, but even these have been reproduced. If the car is being marketed as a Shelby Mustang and is $19,000 (U.S.), either the car is not real (and the owner is being honest), the car is in poor shape, or the market for Shelby's over there is really depressed.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 4:51:13 PM EDT
been in a real one back in the early 70's and that was a killer race car. never had the opertunity to drive the gt40 street version but have seen one. owned 1 67 gt500 , 2 68gt500's and 1 68 gt500 kr plus a regular 68 1/2 gt fastback with the 428cj. never owned a small block mustang other than a few of the regular coupe's. all 3 of my gt500's were equipted with the 428 interceptor motor with a 2x4 manifold. the gt500 kr came with the same motor as the other 68 1/2 car did a single 4 barrel holley 735 on top of a 428 cj motor. also had a couple of 427 mustangs that were original 390 s code cars and a cammer but never put it in one of them. it would be interesting to see how this car is going to be made as the race versions back in the 60's cost ford well over $100,000 back then. the subframe like the lower pan was a new composit honeycomb material that was very expensive to produce and each car was hand built. the new one I would think would have to change alot of things to make it work today. as I doubt that you are going to get a later version with the 427 in it. and now you will get a small block motor of some sort and It will be injected. the originals on the big block gt40's come in lemans form with either the 4 webers or the tecati injectors as the option on top. webbers works better I remember but the new type injectors added a few more horses. in late 69 ford came out with a new intake but basicly only used it on there trans-am mustangs but thatwas a monster setup. you either could get a single or duel inline carbs. if you have never seen one its strang a four barrel card all the same size intakes in a row instead of two in front and two in back. I believe the cfm on the single one was around 1200 and it made the boss cars scream. just ask titus and jones. when I saw that gt40 concept the other day my mouth started drooling boy that brought back memories. hope to hit the lotto and maybe I could own one.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:08:56 PM EDT
jc, pick up the February issue of C&D. Ford has made a lot of changed in the basic GT-40 design to make it more "user friendly", such as lengthening the wheelbase for more footroom, using a large center tunnel instead of the extremely wide side sills the original car had. Of course, they'll use some version of the current modular motor, either normally aspirated or supercharged in order to get the 500Hp. Power steering, A/C, 6-speed transaxle. Read the article. They designed this one to make it buildable, as opposed to the GT-90 show car of several years ago. But, with Ford in serious financial straits (again), it might never happen. [:O] But it does look luscious, doesn't it? I'm in the process of collecting parts (and hoarding cash) for a 428 transplant into my '67 fastback. I have the block & crank now. Still picking and choosing other components. But I've settled on a hydraulic roller cam. BIG horsepower over the standard hydraulic, less hassle than a solid-lifter. But FE part$ $eem much more expen$ive than $mallblock part$.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:13:23 PM EDT
if you are thinking about buying a shelby check the csx # with the shelby american club and first thing is they can tell you what that # on that car should be and for the most part what happened to it. does the same csx # match a car some place else or had it been wrecked and someone bought the title from a wreced totaled one and used the vin to put a clone together. protect your self. we sold every part at the dealers to put one back to gether including csx metal plates and all other stickers. if you do not know what you ar elooking at get some one to go with you that does. even if the 68 and 67 cars are really the same car the body is parts and some other things changed and by looking at the items closly it should all be the coreect year. a small example: the hoods and front end body parts are very different. the 67 hasa longer hood that goes out to the front of the car and fenders extensions are longer plus most 67's had the inboard bright lights in the middle of the grill mounted on a framre in the middle of the grill. late in the year they were made illegal and the 68's ended up with regular mustang outboard lights. with a duel fog light in the grill center. even the scoops on the side were different as the 67's were just rounded but the 68's had more curvature to them. the rear deck spoilers were very different between the two years also as the 67 is if I remember right a little taller and the side caps on the 68 had a extruding notch that when the deck lid came down it fitted very nicely and the 67 was flat on the sides of the rear deck lid and side caps. plus the rear lights were different as I remember. I think the 67 used the 62 t-bird rear lights and the 68 used the 64 t-bird lights with a rear panel around the rear lights. hope I got all that right as its been 25 years ago that I worked and raced those things. won't go into the interior changes but as I have shown you better know what you are looking at.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:24:29 PM EDT
TUUKKA, "Real" Shelbys lasted only a couple of years, 1965-66. In 1967 Carrol Shelby sold the rights to manufacture the GT-350s to Ford. Ford civilized the cars and marketed them for the average car buyer. This is what you should look for in a Shelby GT-350: -The hood is metal with a functional fiberglass scoop. -Tractionmaster traction bars holding the differential assy to the body. -Koni shocks (Although some 1966s were delivered with HD Ford or Gabriel shocks). -Functional scoops on either side of the body, just forward of the rear wheels, to provide cooling air to the rear brakes. -Cobra emblems on the real wood trimmed steering wheel hub and the rear gas cap. A Mustang emblem on the front grill. This sounds like a little thing...but it is probably the most missed item among the copy-cats. -The 1966 models had triangular plexiglass windows in the rear seat area. -Unique Cobra valve covers for the engine. -Extruded, light-weight steel exhaust headers with tuned collectors. -The cars came with a Holley 715cfm carburetor. You could order the cars with four Weber carburetors. I never saw a GT-350 with Webers on the street...but in 1966, I visited the Shelby American plant in El Segundo, CA. Some of the competition cars had Webers. -The cars came with a road racing camshaft, designed to maximize midrange engine torque. It mated well with the rear end gearing. -The differential was a Ford with a 3.89 ratio. -The drive shaft was unique with beefy universals. I know, because I had to replace one once. A Mustang shaft would not work. -The tachometer was big and mounted dead center on the top of the dashboard, angled to the driver. -The cars came in only a few colors. White, Ford Blue, BRG...and I think Red. Black with gold stripes was reserved for the Hertz Rental Car company. Not all the cars had the big twin stripes down the center of the body on top. The 1965s did. Most of the 1966s did not. -The same 289CI V-8 engine was used in the 65 and 66 models. It had a minimum of tricks done to it. The cars were designed to compete in the SCCA B production class, which they did with devastating results. For several years, the GT-350s just cleaned up. The engine put out a fair amount of horsepower for those days. I seem to remember Shelby advertising 305HP but I could be wrong. I think mine dynoed out at only 264hp with a re-jetted carb. -The seat belts were wide leather with a large rectangular leather patch in the middle to protect the driver/passenger from the buckle, which was an aircraft style quick-snap release assy with a very large lever to unsnap the buckle. -The oil pan was a special aluminum assy. with internal baffles and a unique Cobra design similar to that of the valve covers. I understand that a mint GT-350 in good condition is worth well over $50,000 USD. One last thing. Please note that any "Shelby", GT-350/500, 500 King Rat, or any Mustang derivative with a 302, 351, 428, 429 engine or any other Mustang-based car built after 1966 is NOT really a Shelby American car. His company never produced a car after the 1966 models. Ford did but they were for the masses, not the nuts like me. $19,000USD is way too low for a real Shelby GT-350. I would run away from that car. Good hunting! [beer]
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:29:01 PM EDT
KBAKER: sounds like you ar egoing to have some fun. the 428 motor is a killer and somewhat cheaper than building a side oiler 427. which block did you chose? the 428 cj block or get the standard 428 interceptor block? I allway built the bottom end in the following manner but it's been 25 years so I know the technogy has improved. we used the steel billet 428 crank, 427 lemans 7,000 rpm rods that were sent out and weighed and magnefluxed to get the best set before we even started to put it together. sometimes had to go thru two or three sets till we got a perfect set of rods. then we pinned the rod cap and bought the foed racing rod bearings that came with the pin holes. by pinning the rod caps it did not keep you from spiing a bearing at 8,000 rpm but it kept the lower togeter and we had a hole lot less damage. windage tray always, large capacity oil pumpout of a big block fe truck motor, back then we used to cheat and get a duel roller timing chain off the heavy duty truck motors and used the front dampner of a 428 cj. will not go into the heads and valves or intakes as today you got alot of better choices than we did. man hope to doit again someday
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 5:42:04 PM EDT
yes I have driven both a small block and big block cars with the webbers. I always liked the paxton option but the webbers were ok I just hated trying to get the air jets right depending on where we were racing and at altitude I hated trying to get them all synced. the big block cobras and seen a few of the 67 shelby's that had the webbers do not think ford put them on but they were a dealer option like the paxton. the big block intake for the webbers were tested and made by holman & moody and they used them on mostly race cars as the mainifold was made to either use the 4 webbers or the new tecati fuel injection set up in the mid 60's road cars. very hard manifold to get today and even back in the early 70's gasket sets for the injectors were hard to find. even spent some time going threw boxes of parts trying to find gaskets for the dang things and I said the heck with it webbers it is. if and when I build another big block anything ford and a cobra kit car would be cool. to pop that hood open and see a big block with webbers is a sight to behold.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:10:56 PM EDT
jc: The engine I'm building is strictly street/performance - no trips to 7000 rpm. The hydraulic roller cam is good for 6500 tops, then you run out of breathing. I'm planning on Holley closed-loop throttle-body injection, Edelbrock aluminum heads and dual-plane intake, 10:1 compression with hypereutectic pistons, H-beam rods, high-pressure hi-volume oil pump (for widened clearances on the main bearings with restrictors to the rockers) roller-tipped rockers with heavy-duty shafts and end-stands, and Tri-Y headers. According to Desktop Dyno (given an excellent reputation for accuracy by racers) it should yeild 475Hp and over 500 ft. lbs of torque from 2200 to 5000 RPM, with a peak of about 550 ft.lbs at 3500. 450 ft. lbs at 2000. I think I'll have problems keeping tires on it. [}:D] YOWSA!
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 7:39:32 PM EDT
KBAKER: thats what I mean I'am still living in the 60's and 70's. that sounds like you are going to have a very nice motor. last couple of years I have been buying brand X cars and parts(corvette) thats what we used to call chevy stuff. but now I see in the summit catalog those alumimun heads and those nice setups with the cams and roller rockers its got to be alot easier to get parts for know. back then the only rod choice was the lemans 427 one's and heads either 428cj or the medium riser 427 heads with a few choices of intakes or go to the highriser heads with the tuned port intake. sometimes we modified the intakes off the 406 and 427 early 60's three duece low riser intakes for something different. sounds like the rocker problems that plagued the big blocks have been solved with roller rockers and good hyd. cam setups. back then you were lucky to get much over 6,000 with a hyd. cam setup so the rev limiter was used alot so you would not float anything. but even back then you could build them with a good solid lifter cam and using those sodium filled exhaust valves you could get 8,000 for a short time with out a problem. it was nice even back then to have that 427 pull over 7,000 when you needed it. had built a 428cj up a couple of times and had it tricked out all the way threw and was street racing a guy and a friend of mine who also raced big block fords said after words he was shocked when I took it to 8,000 rpms. gotta get me another ford.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 7:47:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 7:49:29 PM EDT by KBaker]
If you want an FE, better hurry. The 428's are getting scarce. 427's? Side-oiler or center oiler, both are hen's teeth. Cammers are worth the moon. Shelby is supposed to be bringing out an aluminum FE block, but it's rumored to be $10k. My block & crank set me back $1k. It's a CJ block, standard bore, but needs 0.030 taken out. Sonic checked and magnafluxed A-OK. The crank is in good shape, but it's turned down .020/.020. One more, and I'll need to find another. They're getting rare because sticking 'em in 390's (to make a 410) is popular now - a lot more 390's than 428's. The 390's are readily available - but you've got to search through 5-10 to find one that's rebuildable. But the longer I wait, the more neat stuff there is for the FE. I could have built a small-block 427 stroker for the same or less money, but I love that old-time religion! (With modern enhancements!)
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 7:52:58 PM EDT
Look at my name.....definately the [b]Ford[/b].
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 7:56:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 7:59:22 PM EDT by TRW]
Imbroglios womenz getter! The 1976 AMC Pacer!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 5:35:51 AM EDT
I'm not what you would call a Ford fan, actually far from it. But that GT-40 is the hottest damn new car (past '70) that I have ever seen. I want one.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 1:01:12 PM EDT
Guys, thanks for the great details. I really do not have the cash to purchase it even if it was real, im trying to sneak my boss into buying it so i can then use it [:)] I will have to check up if its authentic or not.
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