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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/14/2009 11:44:35 AM EST
I'm in the market for a 3/4 ton diesel, but don't really know which one to consider.

My upper price range is about $22K, and I'd like something made after at least '02.

My research shows that the 03-04 Ford 6.0 Powerstroke was problematic, but by '05 they were GTG. Would a higher mileage 6.0 (120,000 or so) be ok?

I like the bigger look and interior space of the Ford compared to the Chevy/GMC, but the Duramax seems to have more power.

Is the Dodge a POS? What about it's fuel economy? I like the idea of 18 mpg on diesel.

I don't plan to do any mods, just need a bigger truck for towing a travel trailer and daily driving/trips to the dump, etc.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 11:56:01 AM EST
My advice would be an '06 Duramax, as they have the best engine of the lot (doesn't overeheat, injectors are GTG, no emissions crap) and a 6-speed auto.

Or

A Cummins with a handshaker.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 12:04:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
My advice would be an '06 Duramax, as they have the best engine of the lot (doesn't overeheat, injectors are GTG, no emissions crap) and a 6-speed auto.

Or

A Cummins with a handshaker.


An '06 in that price range generally has real high miles.

What an older Duramax? I guess the '03 and up Duramax resolved the early problems...are they GTG?
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 12:21:11 PM EST
The LB7 (01-03) has injector problems to the point that GM warranted replacement for 7 years/200,000 miles.

The LLY (04-05) solved the injector problem, but for some reason or another, liked to overheat.
I don't know the root cause of this, but it was fitted with a variable geometry turbo, and EGR (which is fucking stupid on a diesel), as an attempt to lower emissions.
This probably contributes to the overheating, along with a poor radiator stack design and airbox layout.

There is a "bastard LBZ" which is coded as an LLY engine, but mated to a 6-speed Allison and has lower compression pistons. This is an '05.5 truck.
It is basically a detuned LBZ. I think they are about 340 horsepower, while the LBZ is 360.
The LLY is 310 and the LB7 is 300.

If I were getting another one, I'd get an LLY or the detuned LBZ and just deal with the heat issues.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:12:48 PM EST
You should be able to find an 06 LBZ duramax in that price range. Prices on trucks have dropped A LOT.

I wouldn't touch a 6.0 Ford, period, end of story, simply don't care about the year. Total hunk of unreliable crap. (and expensive to fix)
the Ford 7.3 (03 and earlier) is a GREAT motor, but if you get the auto, it's not so much. The Ford Torqueshift (with the 6.0) is a good transmission.

The dodge is a great motor with a crappy automatic transmission. Expect to have issues. (you simply can't put 600ft-lbs of torque behind a car transmission and expect it to live). A lot (like 50%) of Dodge cummins are manuals, which do fine. (Ford's are like 10% manurals and I don't think Chevy even offers a manual)

Dodge/Cummins: best motor, best mileage, lowest price, best turning radius, smallest inside.
Ford/Powerstroke: Best frame (strongest), the 6.0 is a POS, tough truck, hauls the most, HUGE inside, largest turning radius
Chevy/GMC/duramax: best transmission, most comfortable (by far), in the middle.

Drive all 3 back to back to back (try the new dealers, the trucks haven't changed much), decide which one you like best and meets your needs.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:16:31 PM EST
I guess I should add Dodge seats hurt my back, and Ford's are only slightly more comfortable.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:40:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
My advice would be an '06 Duramax, as they have the best engine of the lot (doesn't overeheat, injectors are GTG, no emissions crap) and a 6-speed auto.



This.

Here's mine. Was more than your talking about spending, but has 71k, and is only missing navigation, rear seat entertainment, and tow mirrors. I can get by with all bu the rear seat stuff having two 5 year olds.



Link Posted: 9/14/2009 1:46:49 PM EST
'06 Duramax. You get the better engine (No emissions BS that the LMM has), 6-speed, and the better body style.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 2:15:38 PM EST
My dad has a '09 Duramax with about 6,000 miles on it now, and ZERO issues.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 3:22:22 PM EST
go with a duramax. i love my 03!
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 3:26:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 3:29:53 PM EST by my69camaro1]
Sold my 01 7.3 dually auto 4x4 F350 to Buy a 05 dually 6spd 4x4 Dodge 3500..

Ford had a bigger interior but otherwise I love the dodge... The 7.3 never gave me problems but expensive to mod and hard to make power.

Smoked stock clutch in dodge at 30,000mi, after running programer for 15,000mi... Bought a SouthBend Clutch Dual Disc 3600 and it holds like a mofo... Runs great, A/C compressor went out at 20,000mi... I get 22mpg at 55mph, 17mpg at 70mph, and 15mpg at 80mph Hand Calculated. Towing around 10,000lbs it gets around 12-14mpg. Has 3.73 gears.. Mods are Bully Dog, boost fooler, AFE intake, CFM intake elbow, ATS exhaust manifold, clutch, and 5in turbo back.. 60,000mi

My father has an 05 GMC 2500 with the dmax... LLY... Has edge chip and toasted stock allison after 20,000mi on 80hp setting, also one turbo, one cp3, and and injector. Gets 17mpg at 60 and 14mpg at 75mph. Towing around 10,000lbs it gets around 9-10mpg. Has 3.73 gears. Has a plow set up on it and the front end is constantly messed up... 65,000mi now - Mods are edge and mbrp 4in turbo back...


I say the GMs ride better but they just don't feel heavy duty. Cummins all the way...

Both auto trannys will last a long time if you don't mod the truck and don't pull 20K all the time...


Don't have experience with ford 6.0s...
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 7:07:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/14/2009 7:08:03 PM EST by TheGunCollector]
I have a 05 6.0 PSD and love it.

I'd buy the Ford, and if the Powerstroke craps out, drop a Cummins in it and have your cake and eat it too!
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 7:22:07 PM EST
By fare the fords.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 7:24:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Colt_kid97:
By fare the fords.


Yes, sink your money into the most recalled diesel engine EVER.

Brilliant!
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 7:46:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Colt_kid97:
By fare the fords.


Yes, you pay a "fare" every mile into a sinking fund to fix the POS Ford engine. I know they are the only non-gov left of the big 3, but buying a POS is still buying a POS.

Link Posted: 9/14/2009 8:12:54 PM EST
Just frickin take the damn EGR cooler out and call it good!!


We took ours out of our 6.0 and it has been AWESOME!
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 8:18:06 PM EST
An 04.5+ LLY Duramax would be my recommendation.

the LBZ has stronger pushrods, etc, but if you aren't going to mod it, you won't know the difference.

Hell I've had my LLY running at 600rwhp for the last 40k miles without a hiccup.

Link Posted: 9/15/2009 2:21:24 PM EST
Wow, talk about being confused now.

I guess maybe now I'm leaning toward an '03-'05 Dodge with a manual trans.

Anything about these that is a big problem?

Link Posted: 9/15/2009 3:33:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Wow, talk about being confused now.

I guess maybe now I'm leaning toward an '03-'05 Dodge with a manual trans.

Anything about these that is a big problem?



It's a great engine/trans (probably the best ever) surrounded by a crappy truck?
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 4:36:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Wow, talk about being confused now.

I guess maybe now I'm leaning toward an '03-'05 Dodge with a manual trans.

Anything about these that is a big problem?




Chrysler electronics suck. I've had to get up to 4 pcms to get a good one. The master fuse box (the TIPM) fails like you can't believe causing all kinds of weird problems as per Chrysler 'if you can't find anything else wrong throw a TIPM at it' unreal. Find a non computor controled Cummins with a stick, guys want a mint for them if clean.

If you don't go Mopar, get a 02 or earlier Ford with the 7.3, the later ones need the whole cab pulled just to change sensors. Or buy a Duramax even the early ones are ok if they had the injectors replaced.
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 6:15:08 PM EST
5.9L cummins. they have 6 cylinder inline motors, which means fewer moving parts then duramax and powerstrokes
many 5.9L's have gone over a million miles with proper maintenance
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 6:36:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By upjeeper:
5.9L cummins. they have 6 cylinder inline motors, which means fewer moving parts then duramax and powerstrokes
many 5.9L's have gone over a million miles with proper maintenance


1,000,000 mile motor
250,000 mile truck
Link Posted: 9/15/2009 8:05:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2009 8:08:05 PM EST by dillonivik]
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
The LLY (04-05) solved the injector problem, but for some reason or another, liked to overheat.
I don't know the root cause of this, but it was fitted with a variable geometry turbo, and EGR (which is fucking stupid on a diesel), as an attempt to lower emissions.
This probably contributes to the overheating, along with a poor radiator stack design and airbox layout.


Just to set the record straight EGR actually reduces combustion chamber temps. On a deisel you run it hot to get less soot, but that creates NOX gasses, so you put an EGR on there so you cool the chamber enough to get rid of the NOX gasses. Also variable geometry turbos are about the coolest thing ever, i persoanlly like being able to generate full boost at idle. I dont know if the light duty MFGs run em that way, but on N14 Cummins allot of em running that way in addition to being there to create presure so the EGR works. So i dont see an EGR contributing to overheating. all that is most likely in lean fuel delivery and or fuel timing.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 3:17:35 AM EST
EGR is a killer in both heat and power loss. (I own both a Freightliner and a Mack, in addition to a Duramax and been thru both Ford's and Dodge's)

Mileage dropped 20% on big trucks from 02 to 03 motors, why? because of the EGR.

Radiators have gotten much bigger and trucks run much hotter, why? because of EGR.

Mileage dropped another 30% from 06 to 07 in big trucks? Why? because of the ridiculously strict emissions changes and the increased EGR.

Why is everything now a 14 to 15L motor when 12 to 13 used to do fine? Because in addition to mileage, you're losing power to all the EGR crap.

Maybe the DEF in 2010 will be better (no EGR), but we'll see.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 3:50:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By upjeeper:
5.9L cummins. they have 6 cylinder inline motors, which means fewer moving parts then duramax and powerstrokes
many 5.9L's have gone over a million miles with proper maintenance


1,000,000 mile motor
250,000 mile truck


this is correct , far and away the best engine in a small truck in the worst truck. get a pre05 and avoid egr. Avoid any 6.0 ford , I know nothing about Duramax engine so no help there .If I had to buy an oil burned it would be a Cummins
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 3:51:39 AM EST
I have an early 2007 Dodge 2500 with the 5.9 cummins. It's my first diesel and I have yet to look back. I had a Ford F350 srw V10 and it SUCKED. I had many problems with it and it cost me quite a bit of money out of pocket. I have upgraded the air box, air filter, removed the silencer ring, and swapped out the air intake tube. Next is the exhaust to reduce the EGRs.

I pull a 9,000 lbs excavator with no problems. It's my daily driver. When moving right along on the interstate I easily drop to 17 mpg. If cruising at 65 MPH 19 MPG is nothing. On long side roads at around 50 MPH I can easily get over 20 MPG. Towing it drops to 13 for the excavator (11,500lbs) and 14 for my camper (9,500lbs).

I would take a hard look for a Dodge with a 5.9.

Mike

My Ford was a 2004, mileage on a light trip was 11 mpg and 7 mpg towing, and the seats were uncomfortable. Not to mention the steering box died out at 39,000 miles ($1200). The e-brake froze on at 15,000 miles (warranty), the OD power cable shield wore through at 44,000 miles ($600), ball joints under warranty, mid u-joint (or whatever it was) on the drive shaft at 48,000 miles ($300). It also had a horrible intermittent vibration which could not be trouble shot.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 7:49:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
EGR is a killer in both heat and power loss. (I own both a Freightliner and a Mack, in addition to a Duramax and been thru both Ford's and Dodge's)

Mileage dropped 20% on big trucks from 02 to 03 motors, why? because of the EGR.

Radiators have gotten much bigger and trucks run much hotter, why? because of EGR.

Mileage dropped another 30% from 06 to 07 in big trucks? Why? because of the ridiculously strict emissions changes and the increased EGR.

Why is everything now a 14 to 15L motor when 12 to 13 used to do fine? Because in addition to mileage, you're losing power to all the EGR crap.

Maybe the DEF in 2010 will be better (no EGR), but we'll see.

Easy fix for that- Install an EGR blocker plate. Took me about 5 minutes.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 11:09:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
EGR is a killer in both heat and power loss. (I own both a Freightliner and a Mack, in addition to a Duramax and been thru both Ford's and Dodge's)

Mileage dropped 20% on big trucks from 02 to 03 motors, why? because of the EGR.

Radiators have gotten much bigger and trucks run much hotter, why? because of EGR.

Mileage dropped another 30% from 06 to 07 in big trucks? Why? because of the ridiculously strict emissions changes and the increased EGR.

Why is everything now a 14 to 15L motor when 12 to 13 used to do fine? Because in addition to mileage, you're losing power to all the EGR crap.

Maybe the DEF in 2010 will be better (no EGR), but we'll see.


going off of the theory of opperation of an EGR (wich is to cool daown the cumbustion chmaber a bit wile still getting complete burn) i didnt figure it would cause that much of a difference in running temps. As far as powerloss, its the sad reality that when new smog laws come out for a few years the engines are down on power. But when the MFGs figure things out the smog regs force them to do things better and allot of times result in more power. As far as the displacement issue, i dont think it has much to do with anything other than everyone wants to be licensed at 105,500 and run at 80mph...
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 11:12:44 AM EST
Not a Chevy guy at all but, I would likely buy one in your case.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 1:01:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
EGR is a killer in both heat and power loss. (I own both a Freightliner and a Mack, in addition to a Duramax and been thru both Ford's and Dodge's)

Mileage dropped 20% on big trucks from 02 to 03 motors, why? because of the EGR.

Radiators have gotten much bigger and trucks run much hotter, why? because of EGR.

Mileage dropped another 30% from 06 to 07 in big trucks? Why? because of the ridiculously strict emissions changes and the increased EGR.

Why is everything now a 14 to 15L motor when 12 to 13 used to do fine? Because in addition to mileage, you're losing power to all the EGR crap.

Maybe the DEF in 2010 will be better (no EGR), but we'll see.

Easy fix for that- Install an EGR blocker plate. Took me about 5 minutes.


ALL diesels (from VW's to class 8's) are emssions tested here every year (or every other year if it's newer than like 5 years). $60/test for regular trucks, $160/test for class 8's
fucking total goddamn bullshit.
cannot renew license plates without passing.

no, that won't work here.

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:07:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
EGR is a killer in both heat and power loss. (I own both a Freightliner and a Mack, in addition to a Duramax and been thru both Ford's and Dodge's)

Mileage dropped 20% on big trucks from 02 to 03 motors, why? because of the EGR.

Radiators have gotten much bigger and trucks run much hotter, why? because of EGR.

Mileage dropped another 30% from 06 to 07 in big trucks? Why? because of the ridiculously strict emissions changes and the increased EGR.

Why is everything now a 14 to 15L motor when 12 to 13 used to do fine? Because in addition to mileage, you're losing power to all the EGR crap.

Maybe the DEF in 2010 will be better (no EGR), but we'll see.

Easy fix for that- Install an EGR blocker plate. Took me about 5 minutes.


ALL diesels (from VW's to class 8's) are emssions tested here every year (or every other year if it's newer than like 5 years). $60/test for regular trucks, $160/test for class 8's
fucking total goddamn bullshit.
cannot renew license plates without passing.

no, that won't work here.



As someone who grew up in LA during the mid-late 70's I can say that emissions testing for cars/trucks is not BS - when you can't see a 10K foot mountain that is less than 10 miles away because of the smog there is a huge problem.

Do you really want CO to look like China with all the pollution?

Brian

Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:21:09 PM EST
I worked for Cummins for 36 years......I drive a Duramax.
Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:46:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By DanaHillen:
I worked for Cummins for 36 years......I drive a Duramax.


Link Posted: 9/16/2009 5:53:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By brian4wd:


As someone who grew up in LA during the mid-late 70's I can say that emissions testing for cars/trucks is not BS - when you can't see a 10K foot mountain that is less than 10 miles away because of the smog there is a huge problem.

Do you really want CO to look like China with all the pollution?

Brian



Yeah! And we could tell people how many cars they can have too, or how far they ought to live from work. It would be awesome!

Wait...

I do understand what you're saying, it just rubs me the wrong way to have such shortsighted emissions standards put on diesels. Do you know what the basis for mandating the DPF was?
I also believe that regulatory standards like emissions must come from on high, if they are to come at all. I mean, who in their right mind would agree to put a system on their car that will increase the cost, lower the mileage, and rob power?
Well, they won't have a problem with it on someone else's car, because being able to breathe is nice.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:46:00 AM EST
Well, I guess I'm settled on a Chevy/GMC.

The Dodge is just too chancy, and the back is small.

I really like the Ford's looks, and size, but the 6.0 gets too many bad ratings, even though there are a TON of them on the road.

I really don't like the IFS of the Chevy, bu the interior is pretty nice, and the back is huge.

Too bad it seems like there are significant compromises to make for any of the three.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 2:34:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By brian4wd:
Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
Originally Posted By DuraToTheMax:

Originally Posted By BozemanMT:
EGR is a killer in both heat and power loss. (I own both a Freightliner and a Mack, in addition to a Duramax and been thru both Ford's and Dodge's)

Mileage dropped 20% on big trucks from 02 to 03 motors, why? because of the EGR.

Radiators have gotten much bigger and trucks run much hotter, why? because of EGR.

Mileage dropped another 30% from 06 to 07 in big trucks? Why? because of the ridiculously strict emissions changes and the increased EGR.

Why is everything now a 14 to 15L motor when 12 to 13 used to do fine? Because in addition to mileage, you're losing power to all the EGR crap.

Maybe the DEF in 2010 will be better (no EGR), but we'll see.

Easy fix for that- Install an EGR blocker plate. Took me about 5 minutes.


ALL diesels (from VW's to class 8's) are emssions tested here every year (or every other year if it's newer than like 5 years). $60/test for regular trucks, $160/test for class 8's
fucking total goddamn bullshit.
cannot renew license plates without passing.

no, that won't work here.



As someone who grew up in LA during the mid-late 70's I can say that emissions testing for cars/trucks is not BS - when you can't see a 10K foot mountain that is less than 10 miles away because of the smog there is a huge problem.

Do you really want CO to look like China with all the pollution?

Brian



but isn't now is it?
Even with millions of new people and millions of new cars
yet emssions get even stricter every year.

why?
The problem is solved, fixed, it's done, everyone should be happy.

Hell, most new gas cars you could put your mouth over their tailpipe and breath away.
07 style diesels are 10,000 (yes, that's right, 10,000) times cleaner than a mid 90's.

We're there
We've won

Why do they continue to get harder?
and what exactly does the emissions test do besides rob me of money?

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:20:22 PM EST
There are more cars on the road now.

Because if you give an inch, they take a mile. Any emissions are bad. They won't be happy until there are zero. The fuel tank leak test standard is fucking beyond stupid now. They even put charcoal pads in the air cleaners on some cars to absorb any hydrocarbons that might waft up out of the intake when the engine is off. Steel fuel tanks that are sealed, and unserviceable. They put the fuel filters inside the tanks also. This costs a lot more to service when the time comes, makes diagnosis difficult or impossible and extremely expensive as well.

We even have catalytic radiators now that remove pollutants from the air as you drive. You are cleaning up someone else's pollution.

We have "adblue" which reduces NOx emissions. Except the shit costs three hundred dollars to replenish for another 10K miles of driving. Bye bye fuel savings money. Car won't start without it either. It also has NOx sensors so it can tell whether or not it is being injected in to the exhaust and having sufficient effect on the emissions.

Then the lovely DPF which wastes fuel to keep itself working.

It will only get worse. Emissions standards are out of control. Overall they are a good thing, but there reaches a point of diminishing return, and I think we passed that a while back.

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