I'm sure a string similar to this has been run through before but I've been re-examining this topic myself lately and was wondering if I was off base.

You see, I feel as if I've crossed the line without even realizing it.  It bothers me a lot.  We have slipped so far from our roots of liberty. We are slaves and for the most part do not fight our "masters".  

I could, as I'm sure everyone else on this board, make excuses as to why "I" haven't "done anything" yet.  Just need some more: ammo, mags, weapons, money, etc...  I'm willing to bet that the Afghanistans (sp?) were way less prepared when they fought the Russians than we the citizens of America are today.

What is it going to take for us to actually "do somthing" other then blow smoke up each others' butts?

I feel as if I have let down my forefathers by not taking up arms in the defense of the liberty for which they fought and died.  Do I still write letters?  Yes.  Do I still vote? In every election.  Do I still talk to people to try to "wake them up"? I make it a point every day.  Which brings me back to the title of this thread. Where is my line in the sand?  Where is your line in the sand?

I am doing something. I teach people about firearms and their right to possess them and safely use them. I don't see anti's but instead I see future converts.


I am doing something and it is not blowing smoke.



Hunter out...

Oppps forgot my line in the sand is my property line. Cross it with the intent to seize my firearms and you will see me STAND.

Hunter out...

Remember that in 1764 if you had asked any American if they were happy being British subjects, they would have answered with an enthusiastic 'Yea.'  

Ten short years later they were well into an armed Rebellion against the World's then-only Superpower.

Why?  Because the small amount of self-governance that they did have as a British Colony had been taken away from them.  Up to this point they could always figure that the Crown would relent.

There was no remaining hope to affect any change for the better.

Let's take our cue from those early Americans.
As long as there is hope to change, then work like a crazed weasel to affect those changes.

Only when there is no longer any hope for peaceful change, would anything further be justified.

Door-to-door weapon confiscation, or something just as radical would justify a response.

Eric The Hun

Hi Eric,

I've read a lot of your posts on this board and I agree with what you say.  But let me play devil's advocate.  Isn't murdering innocent men, women, and childern radical enough?

Steve

Eric, I think that our socialistic enemies have already realized the failures made, that caused the American Revolution.  I think they have also seen these failures in other countries as well.  They will nickel and dime our freedoms away, chipping at us bit by bit.

Mtnpatriot, in regards to the excuses , I wonder if perhaps we already have prepared enough, if those that will do something are already prepared, and are just waiting for the last few stragglers to help ensure a win in the fight.  

How many fighters are needed?  How many fighters are there?  Is the fight a just fight, or is it a selfish fight?  Is this fight able to be won with these resources?  Is this fight for (apologies in advance to the atheists) God's purposes?  Will we regain freedom, or will we lose all that we had and then some (as in Australia and England)?

If the war is to work, it will work only because a large group (not 10, nor 30, nor 100, nor likely even 1000) stood up, in concert, with arms, with a common united goal.  But as gun-owners, we do not have a common goal.  So many want to just be able to hunt.  Others wish to continue resolution in the courts and in the voting box.  Others wish to start when the "jack booted thugs" come knocking on the door.  

For an action to ever work, the patriot leaders amongst us must draw the -lines-, multiple lines, in the sand.  These lines should be agreed upon by as many as possible, and as clearly as possible.  The dates in relationship to those lines should be clearly defined, and there should never be any doubt about the backing of everyone around.  

Mtnpatriot - Would you honestly like the responsibility of drawing that line?  I know that thinking about that line in itself scares me.

The "line" again?

mtnpatriot: I have to agree with Eric. I can't answer your second question for Eric, but I would remind you that the government went to great legnths to make it appear that the Dividians and Randy Weaver were extremest and therefore not of us (the American People).

My line is here, no no no... there.....no over there. Aw hell, I cant see it anymore.

Perhaps I am off base.[:\]

But I thought I was wrong once before...but I was mistaken. [:)]

From what I hear everyone so far is saying "my line is when they take more" or "my line is when they touch my property." I've not heard anyone say my lines already been crossed but I am scared to do anything about it. I think that's the real truth. All of us know it's already gone way to far and that every advance that the opposition makes hurts our chance of any restoration of rights. The fact is anybody can say "if" this happened I would________. But talkers are generally just that, trying to save their ego with empty threats of what they would do "if". When "if" comes as it has for so many already most peoples' boudaries will move back yet another inch as our history has already demonstrated. Stop saying "if" and do something or don't but lets not keep saying "if". I say put up or shut up. Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for the delay in responding, but...when I posted my lengthy tome - the 'Cannot Find Server' screen came up, and well you know...

Originally posted by [b]mtnpatriot[/b] -



Absolutely!  No doubt that there have been many dastardly things done in the name of Our Republic, and the murder of the Davidians and the killing of Randy Weaver's wife and son, are just two of the most recent.

I believe that the American public would have been more critical in their judgment in both of these cases, had it not been for the mainstream liberal media's linking of the Davidians and the Weavers with the same people (or person?) who brought us Oklahoma City.

It's not fair, I know, but McVeigh needs to die for a whole lot of reasons, not the least of which is terminal stupidity!

Nevertheless, it's been said that General Washington never had more than a third of the American people behind him at any time during the Revolution.  The other two-thirds were either sitting on the fence or supporting the Crown!

The door-to-door weapon confiscation would have to be the 'crossing the Rubicon' event in our little scenario.  Once the weapons are gone, you are no longer a citizen, but a subject.

Eric The Hun

MTN, this thread has run before.  I'm in the 'when they begin doo-to-door confiscation' camp.  We live in a unique time - too late for voting to do any good, and a little too early to shoot the [email protected]@rds.  Make no mistake, the other side knows what they are doing.  remember the boiled frog analogy?  Everything that I know about the other side has convinced me that the major thrust of ANY totalitarian move is to control the major metropolitan areas, which will control 95% of the population.  They don't have enough manpower to control the rural areas, and beside 'everyone knows that all of those 'hicks, rednecks, hillbillies, stump jumpers, etc.' are armed with 'deer rifles.'  I vote, (for all the good it does,) train, prepare and try to wake people up.  Most of the sleepers prefer ignorance.  Remember, we won the first revolt with less than 3% of the population........[uzi] [grenade]

It's a little bit more complicated than "a line in the sand".  Our forefathers fought against a government that most Americans had never seen nor felt very connected to, an almost foreign government that they had no input into.

We on the other hand have govenment officials that we have put into office and probably have relatives and friends that work with this elected government, I know I do.  So, it is hard to determine where to draw the line.  I think that we all feel something is wrong and should be changed but can't quite put our fingers on what it is exactly that is the problem.

I feel that we as citizens are at a crossroads and it won't take much to send things into a catastrophe.  I'm mean there sure does seem to be a lot of civil unrest among all spectums of our society right now.  Riots can almost be predictable now.  Lets just hope when/if the time comes that we can organize and unite quickly and effectively and not just be another "minority group" rioting in the streets.  

This was the Budweiser talking!

Another analogy. It seems gun owners are just like so many school kids sitting in the school cafeteria telling tales of what they will do next time the get in conflict with the school bully. Every day they say they will stand up next time and every time they do not. I hope no one finds this offensive but how many of the letters you've written stopped the next oppressive gun law at the time from being passed? How many of your votes did the same?

Jusy my .02 hope I didn't tick anyone off, since we are all obviously on the same side here.

"When they make confiscate my registered black powder 22 "


Serious, though - most of you are old, getting older, the next generation are socialists, through and through.

The "boiling frog" thing has worked; but if I see ANY unrest it's usually impatient socialists.

Only real protests I see with a lot of worked up people who'd even face riot cops are anti-capitalist.


Any revolution would be a communist one. . . .

Battler.

The truth is these laws have been passed in spite of the letters I have written.  This has been one of my points in all my posts on these subjects.  My point has been, and still is, that letter-writing has VERY limited effectiveness.  Our "representatives" have their own agenda, and a few letters written to them against a proposed law are basically thrown in the trash.  We are past the point of letter-writing, and are on the brink of taking up arms.  



Another point; Why are we only worried about what affects each of us directly?  This is the same line of thinking as the sheeple, and you can see where that has gotten us in the last 50 years.  

So the question must be asked, if everyone's line is in a different place, how are we to act in unity?  There is safety in numbers, and if we are not united in a cause, the effect will be another Waco or Ruby Ridge.  



I guess you read my mind.  The line, to me, HAS already been crossed.  Yes, I am scared to do something.  To me, to start shooting is a moral dilemma, based on my religious beliefs.  At what point does killing another human being in the name of liberty become justified within my beliefs as a Christian?  This question most assuredly troubled our founding fathers as well.  

Democracy is Tyranny of The Majority.
I think Ghandi said that.
Democracy is my line, I know it is a wimpy line.
If our people prefer the policeman's baton to the Constitution, that is their right, I will continue to vote and be a citizen.
Now if our votes don't count anymore, then I will fight & die. (realist)
Some claim the Generation Xr's are giving up our rights, but most of the people I know who want a police state are the baby boomers and older.
The Y & Z generation still wants their freedom.

My line's been crossed numerous times in the past couple of decades. However, I'm quite unwilling to take on the entire US government on my own. References to the Revolutionary War have been made here. FWIW consider that eventually a few(repeat, few) patriots stood up together against an incredibly strong repressive regime. This gave the remainder of this fledgling nation to be hope that they could be victorious. The rest is history. What is required is leadership and a series of events that act as a catalyst to give those who would be willing to put up a fight the balls to do so and the belief that they might succeed. Until then keep the faith.

The only difference between a revolution and an act of terrorism is how many people are commiting the act. If 20 of us got together and tried to take the white house we would be labeled terroist. If 200,000 of us got together and took the white house that would be a revolution. Terrorism by definition is an act of violence commited for a poilitical reason. Sounds very much like a revolution, just not enough support. I don't think the Gov. will ever give you guys who say "I'll fight when they come knocking on my door" a reason to fight. The Gov. will continue to take away are rights until we have only the ones a certain group(liberals) think we need. So what do I propose we do? I don't have the answer to that. My friends we are a dying breed, our children are being raised right under our noses to accept someone else's non-violent utopia. In a few generations the "warriors spirit" will be gone. What happened to G.I. Joe? did kids suddenly stop being interested in soldiering? NO, the gov. thought it would be better if kids were not shone such violent acts. They are taking away the spirit of the american people through are kids. Most schools to not even say "The Pledge of Alligance" anymore!!!!!  


On second thought I do have a solution...
....LOCK AND LOAD.   [kill]

ATTENTION! The ATF has banned all drawing of lines in the sand.  As we continue to draw this line it seems to getting harder to see it as we are now up to our neck in water.

Seeing as how I live in an apt. building now that would evect me if I knew I had a firearm (no doubt an AR15, for that matter), I am foregoing all "drawing lines in sand".  As far as the world is concerned, I don't own a firearm and I am a common peon.

Hopefully I don't have to fight and/or die to prove my cause.  I have a much greater preference to live until I'm 85, have granchildren, and watch the world change in front of my aging eyes.  If the time comes, however, I can and will fight for independence of myself and my family.  As far as "pro-gun propaganda" goes, I haven't participated in any of that (yet).  I've only been a Republican for 3 months now (odd...same length of time I've owned a firearm...hmm), so I'm just getting into the swing of things at the moment.

Not to worry though.  When I move out, get my own assault-rifle-approved home, and can do whatever I please, I'll fight for what's right.  Only problem is, it's so very hard to tell what's right and what's "gray" now.  You have liberals going conservative, republicans going turncoat, you can't trust the "Loyalists and the Torries" anymore.  You can only trust your gut and act on that ONE, SINGLE inherint instinct.  Problem is, I don't have an instinct yet, so chances are my morals and standards will have to come in check one day in my life, before my liberty and life does.  We'll just have to see.

[b][i]Celebrating His New Senior Member Status[/i][/b]
[blue]J E W B R O N I ~ [/blue]
[beer]

Originally posted by Son of Liberty -



When I said door-to-door weapons confiscation, I didn't mean when they came to MY HOUSE!  [b]Hell, by then it's too late for me, anyway.[/b]

I meant whenever 'they' begin door-to-door weapons confiscation ANYWHERE the Stars and Stripes flutters.

If you wait till they pull up outside, then the only response is a quick exit to the rear, and hope they haven't got that route covered yet!

Can you say 'Dee dee, mao'?

Eric The Hun

Not to sure where mine is but it will be in my life time. If I live long enough.

You are not alone!

After looking long and hard at the facts, I feel, we will see revolution in our time. An in their face web site, filled with good info is [urlwww.fsdf.org

I keep drawing MY line and all you SOBs keep steping on it! Quit backing up![:D]

99% of the people who say they will fight when gun consfication starts, will DO NOTHING. I have heard it all before- "but, but, I might go to jail!" and the gem "my career is more important".

As long as you people are fed your steady diet of "survivor", football and beer, you will sit passively by an make sure you don't miss the latest episode of "When Gun Owners Resist" on TV so there will be something to talk about at work the next day.

Am I cynical, hell yes. Things should have not been allowed to progress this far in the first place. Trying to reverse the damage now is going to be like trying to push a rope up a wall.

Imbro,
   You're right but whats the plan? How can we coordinate a mass movement without unwanted parties gaining knowledge of it? This forum is probably under surveilance 100% of the time. E-mail is no good either. Phone lines can be tapped. In order for something like this to work you will need a mass coordinated movement striking at once, that takes some serious planning. Gather support, formulate a plan, seize equipment, organize and move out. Is anyone ready to commit to such a huge undertaking? Are you?

Imbro,  I agree with you.  It's already too late to "preserve our freedoms" or "preserve the true Republic".  We are left with only being able to draw the line with danger to our very lives - not lifestyle.

I know very well that the first Revolution (heretofore "R1") was supported by a small number of people.  The problem is that R2 will be supported by a miniscule number of people.  The overwhelming majority, 99% in my honest opinion, will do nothing.  The media has them convinced that ANY opposition to the gubmint's plans and decisions MUST be by "the extremists" - all of whom are psychotic and armed.

You see, we ALL are too far connected to the "system".  Our jobs, our house, our cars, our food source, supplies, etc.  All of these things (yes, some are unnecessary) are heavily connected to the system.

Stock up on weapons, ammo and supplies and your neighbors will turn you in BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE TV TOLD THEM TO DO.  "Anyone who needs that many weapons and supplies MUST be dangerous!"  

The liberals are very effective and they're winning this by leaps and bounds.  Not in the last 20 years has any ground been recovered.  We fight at the polls, etc and we fall back.  More intrisive laws are passed and we fall back.  More useless gun conrtol is passed and we fall back.  Our schools are teaching our children that OUR very way of life is crazy and we "must" be dangerous - and we fall back.

I'll never give up, and those who know me know this very well.  I am extremely active on all the fronts but folks, we are too late already to do any type of recovery.

AT the very best we **might** be able to slow the tide of the decline.

Think about it.

CMOS

There's a 'thin line' that keeps the sheeple happy and in the temple.  It's called the power grid.

Maybe the 'Matrix' would be a better term?

Eric The Hun

I agree that the alphabet soup group intercepts most all forms of communication.  I'd like to meet and train with like-minded individuals but we live all over the country.  Even if we do meet in regional or state groups, the soup group would be bound to have someone there.  I don’t know what the answer is… but I know that we are moving in the wrong direction.

Libertas an Mortis

I highly doubt there will be a mass coordinated movement except maybe between the larger militias, who are the only people who really give a damn. Then again, these organizations tend to be highly infiltrated so it would be up in the air as to how far their resistance efforts will get. Most likely there will be small pockets of resistance made up of cell units but the media will be doing their best to paint them as terrorists and broadcast "america's most wanted" type programs offering rewards for the capture of the rebels.

If you really want to see art imitating NEAR future life watch "The Running Man".

yes, you name the place and i will be there. but if we are going to do this it has to be for real.

do you honestly think "r1" was an organiset war from the start? it wasn't that organised it was a seat of yore pants thing.

the best thing anyone can do is start a small group of trusted associates in yore area. get to know the leaders of other local groups. and when something is triggered by something stupid, its all out. if there was an (semi) organised group like this in cincy, the revolution may well be on already.

but our purpose must be known throughout the country. and accepted by all.

it will start out very local, and other groups from the area will move into position and fight the oppressors from behind. then the govt will send in more "regulators" and another group will attack them in transit. the govt will declair martial law in the area, and baracade the city/or general area. and then it really starts to spread.

but this has to be the accepted plan. there has to be small groups (not more that say 6) throughout the countryside coordinating this thing. have radios to coordinate with other groups nearby.

every group should have a specific set of equipment and know of other local groups precesses, for the purpose of coordination.

if this is done on a national scale than the govt cant stop us, we would be more prepared for this revolution than out forefathers were for r1.
we should be united under a particular flag, or have an itentifying feature about our clothing (ex. green armband) so that we can distinguish between resistance and common thug.

these are the things that need to be done.
i will go offline now to start setting up in my area.         just my (lots more than) .02

Whatever you decide on, DO NOT BUILD A UNIT FROM THE TOP DOWN. Let's just say I have seen what happens when a person muscles his way into a leadership position without earning the respect of his followers.  It will destroy your group in a very short amount of time. Natural leaders rise will rise to the top and wannabes will usually run off to find something else better to do.

If you really are serious about doing something, go to Frugal Squirrel's site. The people there are serious about preparing. For example last month they did a nationwide communications test using ham radios.

mtnpatriot and Imbro, you are both mostly right.  I'm up to meet & train too.  Yes the larger groups are monitored and likely infitrated.  I DON'T GIVE A SH!T!!!!  I am a Christian, a patriot who believes in liberty, I am not a terrorist, whacko, radical, etc.  The news media are the EXTREMISTS!!  Anyone in PA can e-mail me if they want to do more than talk. When anyone resists confiscations, I will be ther to back them up.  This may get me killed.  It may get me jailed.  "Here I stand.  I can do no other.  God help me."  Martin Luther.  [uzi] [grenade]

You should move down to [red]God's[/red] country.  Ie.: NC mountains!!

For those of you with a moral dilemma:

"Resistance to Tyrrany is Obidience to God."
- Thomas Jefferson

Despite what the liberals want you to believe, being a Christian and standing up for your rights go hand in hand.

Also, I am pro law-enforcement and pro-gun.  Keep in mind that 75% of law enforcement personnel out there are pro gun and probably 50% of them would never enforce a confiscation law.  For one, they don't believe in it, not to mention that door-to-door confiscation is a death wish in America. (see Alberta and BC, Canada)  No, what I am more worried about is a slow erosion of rights with no outright confiscation. (See Kalifornia)

[img]http://www.comeandtakeit.com/doofis.gif[/img]

Oh and regarding a common identifyer I'd say either the "Come and Take It" AR-15 flag or the Culpepper Minute Men "Liberty or Death - Dont Tread On Me" would be great.  Both can be purchased here: http://www.comeandtakeit.com/histricl.html#1


Tracer Technology
[url]http://www.tracertechnology.com[/url]
Law Enforcement & Military Dealer

Troy, this would be the single best thing to get the attention of the nation.  Make it known to everyone, next tim there is something like Waco/Ruby to have EVERYONE show up.  Fuck your job, Bring the family, Fuck monday night football.  I'll be there.  

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
NSF  (all fired up with boiled blood over this)

my line in the sand is when someone knocks on my door to take my guns, sadly, this will most likley be the first time im forced to kill someone

You may be selling the militias short.  In my experience, the groups who are the most serious are the ones that are small, not well known, and keep to themselves.  They don't talk much about it, and it is better that way (at least for staying out of jail).  The problem is that if they were to finally justify action, they would be painted as terrorists by the media, and a militia's call to action would be labeled as a terrorist act, and dismissed.  Case in point, OKC.  Everyone here can label it as they see fit, but the bombing of the Murrah building was McVeigh's call to arms.  (Note:  I do NOT condone the killing of women and children as happened in OKC)  Are we ready for the next round?

I agree that most of the larger organizations have been heavily infiltrated by the alphabet boys.  That only strengthens the idea that small cells of known and trusted people stand the best chance of survival when it all hits the fan.  There is just too much chance of not recognizing an infiltrator in a very large organization.



As you say, this is a big problem, and it ties in with the above.  How are the militia’s actions going to be recognized as what they are when intent can’t be communicated for fear of interception?  But once again, too large a group knowing a plan invites infiltration, exposure, and most likely incarceration.  So now what?



Thank you, Troy.  This is what I have been trying to say all along.

SOL

Disclaimer:  This post is presented as theory, and should be viewed as such.  Advocating overthrow of government is unlawful per Title 18 Section 2385 US Code.

The real problem is that it's a defensive war.  Most people, at least on this board, seem to want to overthrow governent tyranny soley because of firearms infringements.

The problem is, nobody's advocating a better way of running things.  They just want to do away with the current government.  To take some artistic liberty with a speech from "The Patriot", I for one don't wish to trade a tyranical Congress, Senate, President, and Supreme Court for any other form of Tyrany.  

Let's just say, for sake of argument, that the "Patriots" win the war.  What kind of government do we install?  Not the US constitution as it is, that's the government we just overthrew, remember?  We would most likely then either have an invasion from someone like China or Russia, or an internal struggle for power.

Any way you go, you fight the government as it is now, and you forever loose the constitution.

It's just like guns in schools.  You don't overthrow the government, they're the one's put into office by the American People.  Until you change the heart of America, just like many of you say about the hearts of the school children committing the violence, you will loose, period.

And to those of you in gun-restrictive states, I'll borrow from LBJ's Speech.  "[b]I will not send Texas boys to do a job that California boys should do for themselves[/b]"  If you want to do away with the laws in your state, lead the way.  Others of us will be glad to follow.  But I'm not going to start a revolution and die over stupid California Laws which Texas has the good sense not to implement.

There may be some sense of lost Liberty, but most of us can still buy any preban or other gun we want to spend the money on.  Stock up now for when the time is right, 'cause until more of the population gets it's collective head out of the sand, now is not the time.

It will take patience to win the hearts and minds of the American people.  People will have to suffer alot more than they ever have in most of our lifetimes before they will want anything different.  Until more people want a change, we will never win.

I am a firm believer in the constitution and the American way.  If we want to preserve this, we must be patient, train hard, enlist others, and be well equipted.  God be with you all.

[flag]

Sadly also, that would be the time that you would be killed.  There will not be a man in a suit at your door to confiscate your weapons.  More likely 10 to 20 men armed with submachine guns.  Of course, I wish you luck...

[i]They tell us, sir, that we are weak, --unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of Hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?

Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we posess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. - Patrick Henry, The War Inevitable [/i]

I agree with Southern Rising, I think the constituion as is was originally written is correct. The problem is hardly anyone has read the constituion. Trust me when I say you will be pissed when you do!!! There are so many things in there that have been ammended that should never have. We need to educate ourselves first, read the constitution, It is fairly long winded but worth it, take a few nights, study it. Knowledge is power.

Overthrow of a government purely for infringement on firearms rights would be foolish to say the least.  There is much more than that.  What about the fact that our government has killed it's own citizens?  (Waco and Ruby Ridge)  That our property is taken away without due process? (Asset forfeiture)  And on and on...  




I am not advocating overthrow and replacement of our government.  But I DO advocate [b]restoring[/b] it.  Our Constitution is the best form of government in the world.  But as it now stands, it is corrupted beyond repair.  Restore the government to Constitutionality, and do away with any unconstitutional laws.



Do you think 100% of the residents of the original 13 colonies agreed to independence from England?  That would be rediculous.  The sheeple from then and from now go along with the powers that be.  If a new government arises from a revolution, they will follow.



Agreed.  But the time is getting very close.  

Seems to me that things could be a whole lot worse were it not for the NRA.  Did not the NRA play a big part in the defeat of Al Gore?  I for one am a lifetime member.  Are not many of you members?  If not maybe you should think about supporting them with your membership.  Without the NRA the anti-gun agenda would advance at a much more rapid rate.  The NRA was not always involved in politics, but I for one am glad that they are now.  

I agree with most of what has been said in the previous comments.  My family and I are strong supporters of the 2nd Ammendment and will not give up our firearms willingly.  I am ashamed to say we are native Kalifornians who have moved from that state and will never return.

Red Dawn

[heavy]