Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/15/2002 11:51:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 11:54:25 AM EST by fight4yourrights]
We have a [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=132404]running thread[/url] about a vendor carrying at a gunshow and shooting a young man dead. We have comments about how it's "too dangerous" to allow CCW at a gunshow, a gun shop, etc.... Our own Black Rifle Convention banned concealed carry. So my question is; [b]why don't you people trust each other to carry loaded weapons?[/b] You all seem to think they [i]you[/i] can be trusted, but it's the [i]other[/i] dillweeds that can't be. Don't you see the fallisy in this logic? If [i]you[/i] don't trust your fellow gun owners to carry at a public event, why should anti-gun or non-gun owners [i]ever[/i] trust [i]you[/i] to carry [i]anywhere?[/i] So let me hear it - where should CCW carry be banned and WHY?
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 11:58:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 11:59:02 AM EST
Since criminals carry anywhere they want, banning concealed carry anywhere is a fools errand. It will only disarm the law abiding, and endanger the sheeple.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:06:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Our own Black Rifle Convention banned concealed carry. So my question is; [b]why don't you people trust each other to carry loaded weapons?[/b] Don't you see the fallisy in this logic? If [i]you[/i] don't trust your fellow gun owners to carry at a public event, why should anti-gun or non-gun owners [i]ever[/i] trust [i]you[/i] to carry [i]anywhere?[/i]
View Quote
So good it should be read again... the reason the Anti crowd can split us apart and drive a wedge is the cracks in OUR armor are already there... Carry should be allowed everywhere!
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:09:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By Aimless: Just like I don't hunt w/ people I don't know or trust I am not necessarily comfortable w/ people I don't know holstering and drawing w/loaded weapons and no range rules around me since I think that's very often when people seen to shoot themselves in the ass.
View Quote
I don't really like driving near people I don't know or trust, especially after I just got my BMW totalled out last week in a 5 car pile-up. Still, not much I can do about it except ask for a national ban on cars.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:09:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:09:44 PM EST
Is this a trick question or something. You can really open up a can of worms with some of selections you have. Once you have permit to handle a weapon, what does it matter where you carry it? Why would a person be Less Trusted in a sporting event then out in a general public? If you have a problem with this you don't believe in a CCW or you think existing requirements need to be tighter. Criminals are criminals, law abiders are law abiders. Once you brake the law, you are a criminal, which means your guilty until proven innocent. We can't disarm the citizens cause something MIGHT happen. Look at these friggen FBI agents shooting innocent people in the face.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:13:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By MurderSHO45: Is this a trick question or something.
View Quote
Are you serious or being facetious? Read the thread I've mentioned and you will find [i]many[/i] on this board don't trust each other to carry CCW around them.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:14:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By DarkStar:
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Our own Black Rifle Convention banned concealed carry. So my question is; [b]why don't you people trust each other to carry loaded weapons?[/b] Don't you see the fallisy in this logic? If [i]you[/i] don't trust your fellow gun owners to carry at a public event, why should anti-gun or non-gun owners [i]ever[/i] trust [i]you[/i] to carry [i]anywhere?[/i]
View Quote
So good it should be read again... the reason the Anti crowd can split us apart and drive a wedge is the cracks in OUR armor are already there... Carry should be allowed everywhere!
View Quote
I beleive the issue is being confused. Private property owners / event organizers have the right ban concealed carry where ever they want to. The Fed gov't has no right to make ANY law that infringes on firearms rights. States that have adopted 2A language into their state Constitutions have the NO right to make ANY law that infringes on firearms laws. States that have [b] NOT [/b]adopted 2A language into their state Constitutions have left a HUGE Constitutional question as to whether 2A in the BOR prohibits them from infringing on firearms rights. But make NO mistake - private property owners have an ABSOLUTE right to ban concealed carry on their property.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:15:52 PM EST
I voted for everywhere, because it's a right, but if you had a choice that said "any place a CCL holder is acting like an idiot," I'd have voted for that one. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:20:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 12:24:25 PM EST by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By garandman: I beleive the issue is being confused. Private property owners / event organizers have the right ban concealed carry where ever they want to. But make NO mistake - private property owners have an ABSOLUTE right to ban concealed carry on their property.
View Quote
That effectively BANS CCW altogether. If I can't carry at McDonalds, Burgerking, Walmart, the carwash, the bank, the grocery store, etc... What is the point of carrying? I would only be allowed to carry my gun from the door of my house, into my car, and back again. Everywhere else I go would be [i]somebody's[/i] property, and not mine. I see what you are saying, but it effectively negates CCW. I firmly believe the private property holder has [i]every[/i] right and duty to eject anyone acting in an unsafe manor, and holding said person responsible for any negligent or irresponsible behavior. Pre-emptive banning? I don't know.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:28:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 12:30:37 PM EST by BillStClair]
CCW is a crock. It is an attempt to turn a right into a privelege. The second amendment already guarantees the right to carry anything anywhere anyhow. My favorite rendition of this is from L. Neil Smith's [url=http://lneilsmith.com/atlanta.html]Atlanta Declaration[/url]: Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, [i]anything[/i] -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:29:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 12:33:00 PM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:32:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:33:15 PM EST
I voted "Nowhere, it's a right" but about bars . . . well, I don't hang around in bars anymore (and you should see some of the places I've been in)[kill] . . . but if I did . . . I believe that perhaps I should carry and maybe . . . well maybe you shouldn't. LOL![:D]
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:33:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 12:53:09 PM EST
I thought about making a list of places where carry should be allowed. Realizing a list like this would fill volumes, I instead made a list of all the places where I don't feel carry is necessary. The places on my 'no-carry' list are places where the possibility of needing a defensive arm does not exist. Here's my list so far:
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:54:54 PM EST
I feel that once you have your permit, you should be able to carry [u]anywhere[/u]. [i]On another note ....[/i] About trusting the abilities of other permit holders, something needs to be done about conveying the importance of [u]already[/u] knowing your weapon and the safe handling of it. In the concealed carry class that I took in North Carolina, there were individuals that had never fired their weapon, much less drew it from a holster prior to the class. As part of the qualification, you had to draw and fire. The rest of us got as far away as possible when they were firing. [peep] I doubt that a couple had even handled weapons at all, prior to the class. This included a guys father who had to be in his 70's, that the son equipped with a Glock 17. The action of the pistol firing intimidated the hell out of the old guy, so can you comprehend when he had to DRAW and fire!? [:O] My idea is that when you make the decision to do concealed carry, you've got to at least know basic weapons handling so hopefully you don't hurt anyone but the bad guy. Chris
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 1:55:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By garandman: I beleive the issue is being confused. Private property owners / event organizers have the right ban concealed carry where ever they want to. But make NO mistake - private property owners have an ABSOLUTE right to ban concealed carry on their property.
View Quote
That effectively BANS CCW altogether. If I can't carry at McDonalds, Burgerking, Walmart, the carwash, the bank, the grocery store, etc... What is the point of carrying? I would only be allowed to carry my gun from the door of my house, into my car, and back again. Everywhere else I go would be [i]somebody's[/i] property, and not mine. I see what you are saying, but it effectively negates CCW. I firmly believe the private property holder has [i]every[/i] right and duty to eject anyone acting in an unsafe manor, and holding said person responsible for any negligent or irresponsible behavior. Pre-emptive banning? I don't know.
View Quote
I think that the system we have in FL is the right way to handle this: The CCW law does not mention anything about places that prohibit firearms (with a sign). Therefore, carrying in those places is never illegal. But the property owner does have the right to make anyone carrying leave the premesis. If you refuse to leave, you can be arrested for trespassing. Of course, whether they notice you carrying is another issue. But remember, it is Private Property. The owner can do pretty much anything he wants, and make anyone on the property do or not do pretty much anything he wants. If you don't like it, you can leave, or not enter in the first place. If there are enough buildings that ban carrying to make it pointless, then we have already lost.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:01:27 PM EST
maybe someone should ask the deceased young man and his father about allowing people to carry firearms at a gun show. I wonder what they would have to say about. Like it or not, people do have a right to say who can or can not enter their business. If they don't want someone carrying a weapon, then the have the right to keep you out.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:17:04 PM EST
Who would agree with this. CCW is a right and should not require a permit. However there should be some restrictions 1. You can not carry while under the influance. 2. On private property they can ban it all they want under the following conditions A. They must have a safe secure area to store said firearm while on the premesis B. They assume all risk and liability for any injury (mental or physical) while on there premesis if it is shown your carrying might have prevented it. 3. There are some places which by law you can not carry concealed, but may carry open such as A. Gun shops and shows B. Courthouses C. Police Dept. D. Other such Govt. Facilities that require them to know you are carrying 4. The only places I think it should NOT be allowed under any circumstances are A. Jails B. Secure Military instulations C. Nuclear Power Facilities D. these facilities would have secure areas for storage and in the case of a Military instilation proceedures for picking your arms up at any gate before leaving. What do yall think????
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:33:58 PM EST
I think CCW should be banned in schools definitely. Guns don't belong in schools period. I also think that CCW can and should be prohibited by private property owners. Forcing people to accomodate your gun is stupid and just more government regulation. IT'S MY PROPERTY NOT YOURS! CRC
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:40:30 PM EST
Keep it in the holster until it is needed, and everyone is fine. There is no difference in that rule if you are at the game with 25k other people, or walking around the block at midnight. And you may need it either time (at the game more likely on the way in or out).
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:42:59 PM EST
CRC.....don't you ever wonder why school shootings work so well? ITS BECAUSE ONLY THE CROOKS HAVE GUNS THERE!!
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:45:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 2:50:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By guardian855: maybe someone should ask the deceased young man and his father about allowing people to carry firearms at a gun show. I wonder what they would have to say about.
View Quote
Gee, a [i]real[/i] impartial jury you've selected there........
Originally Posted By guardian855: Like it or not, people do have a right to say who can or can not enter their business.
View Quote
That's [B]BULLSHIT[/B] Try and keep blacks, hispanics, Arabs, christians, whatever out of your business and see how long you stay out of jail or court.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:08:58 PM EST
CRC said... I think CCW should be banned in schools definitely. Guns don't belong in schools period. __________________________________________ When I went to school - graduated in '81 - almost every student's pick-up truck had a shotgun or rifle in the rear window rack. Most other cars had some kind of weapon; handgun, rifle, shotgun, bow, crossbow (homemade - hehehe). NEVER did anyone think of using one of these weapons other than for shootin bunnies or some other hunting sport. Fights were done with fists. If some fool decided to use some sort of weapon then every one bystanding just jumped in and took it away. My pastor friend's football coach asked during P.E. "who had a shotgun in their truck?" Several boys replied affirmative. Coach told him to "go get it and kill that rattler over their!" Snake was taken care of, weapon was stowed, game resumed. I believe that it should be almost a requirement for teachers to be armed. I know I would want someone to be able to defend my child (that's one reason to homeschool...) Anyway, nuff said on schools. On nuke plants... I work at a power plant and most if not all operators and maintenance staff are either carrying or have something in their locker or lunch bucket. Only makes sense. Power companies don't hire lunatics to operate multi million dollar plants that are capable of killing everyone there and beyond. They only hire capable, trustworthy people. I realize that sometimes people just snap and go off the deep end, but that's just one more reason for others to be armed - to stop a deranged person before too many get taken out by the bad guy. Sorry for long winded ranting.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:24:19 PM EST
CCW = Carrying CONCEALED Weapon (emphasis added) - if you are doing it right, I won't know you have it until it needs to come out. As far as carry at gunshops and the like, I will comply with their wishes if they ask me to remove the ammunition from my sidearm (they usually have me stick it in my other pocket) - I'm in THEIR house, it's THEIR wishes. They are usually armed anyhow. If I bring out my sidearm to check a new holster rig or whatever, I will "cold" the weapon before I do anything else, and offer it for inspection. Everyone seems to feel better, and I seem to generate a good deal of goodwill. FFZ
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:28:37 PM EST
People unquestionably have the right to ban the carrying of concealed weapons on private property they own. If that means businesses have the right to ban CCW on premises, then that's what it means. HOWEVER: if you ban someone from carrying on your property, then imho, you've accepted personal responsibility for their safety, and if something bad happens, and you didn't have security personnel etc. on hand to deal with it or showed other negligence for the safety of your guests/customers, then you should be held liable at law (i.e., people should be able to sue you.) Beyond that, I think that there are some areas where CCW is inappropriate -- primarily, areas where there are pressing security reasons against it, i.e., if the President is speaking somewhere (and there's a full Secret Service detail around that place providing full security), inside federal jails (i.e., people visiting can't wear their guns in), so forth. But I don't have a problem with CCW in schools, post offices, etc.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 4:48:59 PM EST
In general, CCW should not be banned anywhere. IMO - I think that even private business owners should not be allowed to bar CCW from their premesis. Abrogating rights on private property is dangerous. Almost anywhere could be construed as private property and I don't think my Constitutional rights stop at anyone's doorstep.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 5:06:23 PM EST
It needs to be banned anywhere near MRI equipment in hospitals, and anywhere else powerful magnets exist.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 5:14:23 PM EST
This may have been said already, but i'm too lazy to read all the posts so.... CCW holders have demonstrated they aren't criminals, since you have to pass a background check to get one. Also, why do criminals need CCW? They don't care about laws anyway, so only law abiding citizens are going to put forth the money for training(required here) and the permit. Before Sept. 11, I would have said carrying in a church is stupid. But now, since Muslim extremists have shown a great disliking toward Christians and Jews and may try bombing churches, I'd say carrying in your house of worship is very appropriate now.
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 5:55:15 PM EST
Power-Plant: I am not talking about employees, I am in charge of all shipments in and out of 4 plants on the East Coast. What I am talking about is the visitors (truck drivers, non-employees, and such)
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 6:56:59 PM EST
Training for CCW should be more rigorous. My training was a joke. Not one shot fired. I have since taken over 40 hours of tactical/ defensive handgun training and STILL dont feel totaly comfortable with the idea of using a weapon on another person.Who would? I carry all the time. I should be allowed to carry wherever and whenever I want. A two hour NRA course will not guarantee a safe firearms operator. Only many hours of training will.I still believe that everyone has the RIGHT to be able to defend themselves.If there has to be training it should actually involve firing a weapon. No person should be denied the RIGHT to carry a weapon to defend themselves wherever they feel they need to. They should just know how to use it. I honestly believe, on the other hand, that if everyone was armed, trained or not, we would all be safer. JMHO BP
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 2:24:17 AM EST
There's a good point , "fight4.." . I think there needs to be a further review and correction of many of the laws regarding locations where carry is prohibited. Private property is one major issue. I can prohibit you from doing anything in my own home, and I doubt anyone would disagree. BUT, a business is a public accommodation. Your point about preventing someone from entering by race is right on the issue. You can't. And, why? That person has done nothing wrong. And you have only your prejudice to say he/she might. The same is true of someone legally carrying. You cannot prevent someone from doing anything if that person is complying with the law. A simpler point, and I know this is being said to the choir, business people who prohibit legal ccw are idiots. These aren't the people they have to worry about. The criminals don't care. Yet another reason I would not use my weapon to protect someone else ( a stranger) or someone else's business. (Even though here in FL one can legally use a weapon to stop a "forcible felony" if it is happening to someone else.)
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 4:26:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:11:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Forest: I don't have a problem with people carrying anywhere. Yeah there are idiots - but we also allow idiots to drive. Accidents will happen - its not possible to stop them, and its tragic when they occur. That is part of the price of living a free life. Should the rights of all the people be restricted because a couple of people are irresponsible?
View Quote
[beer]
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:12:01 AM EST
where should CCW carry be banned and WHY?
View Quote
There should be no restriction on CCW anywhere --- however, an individual should be held responsible for any accidents/mishaps like shooting someone in the face.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:33:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By Try2TakeIt: [ however, an individual should be held responsible for any accidents/mishaps like shooting someone in the face.
View Quote
There you go, LEO bashing again........ Ahem brother, I agree 100%
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:36:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: So my question is; [b]why don't you people trust each other to carry loaded weapons?[/b] You all seem to think they [i]you[/i] can be trusted, but it's the [i]other[/i] dillweeds that can't be. Don't you see the fallisy in this logic? If [i]you[/i] don't trust your fellow gun owners to carry at a public event, why should anti-gun or non-gun owners [i]ever[/i] trust [i]you[/i] to carry [i]anywhere?[/i]
View Quote
Well [i]this[/i] will make me popular, but here goes: I think if you've gone through formal training and proven to a competent person that you're competent yourself, then you can be safe with a loaded weapon anywhere - as safe as anyone can reasonably expect. HOWEVER - there [b]are[/b] "dillweeds" out there who wouldn't be safe with a plastic fork, much less a firearm. How do you tell them apart? [i]IS[/i] carrying [b]concealed[/b] a "right?" Apparently not. There have been laws against it enacted before, and shortly after passage of the Constitution. Apparently the Founders had little problem with [i]open[/i] carry, but a lot of their contemporaries had a problem with [i]concealed[/i] carry. Arizona allows OPEN carry without permit. It requires a permit for concealed carry. Next question: Should everyone be allowed to carry a firearm anywhere? Do you want everyone to be able to carry a firearm in a bar? Do you want everyone to be able to carry a firearm in a courtroom? IMHO there are [i]NO[/i] rights that are [i]absolute[/i]. There cannot be. There are and must be exceptions. The difference between a [i]fundamental[/i] right that is enumerated in the BoR and our other rights not so enumerated is in the [i]restrictions[/i] on what those limits can be. Fundamental rights can be restricted only [i]very[/i] narrowly, and only with [i]demonstrable need[/i].
If you don't trust your fellow gun owners to carry at a public event, why should anti-gun or non-gun owners ever trust you to carry anywhere?
View Quote
I [b][i]don't[/i][/b] trust many of my fellow gun owners, and with good reason. They have demonstrated that [i]they aren't safe![/i] The liberals and other gun-grabbers aren't our biggest enemy, these yahoos are! And these yahoos are the [i]reason[/i] there is [i]demonstrable need[/i]. What remains is defining what is sufficiently [i]narrow.[/i]
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:42:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:47:16 AM EST
read my sig
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 5:52:54 AM EST
ALL firearms laws are foolish. Except ONE. Let me explain. With the sungular exception (which I'll explain later) firearms laws have three possible effects, NONE of them good: 1. Will be ignored by the type of people who ignore laws (aka criminals and irresponsible people) 2. Will turn law abiding citizens into criminals, where there is no actual victim (i.e. carrying on school grounds, where no one is either threatened or injured) 3. Will force law abiding citizens, the single best force available to STOP crimes as they are being committed, to disarm themselves in compliance with the law, thereby aiding the group in # 1 above. That's it. As far as mandatory training goes, its silly. Only the people who DON'T need it (law abiding citizens) will get it. Criminals and irresponsible people won't get it becasue they are by definition criminal and irresponsible. And they will carry a gun anyway. Its a fools errand. Its simply an excuse for gov't to take your money. Now the ONE gun law we need on the books (drum roll please) [b]Whatever crime / accident you commit that harms someone else, the same will be done to you.[/b] It REALLY IS that simple.
Top Top