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Posted: 10/21/2004 10:45:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 10:52:06 AM EST by hamptonyellowdog]
I was at popular outdoor store last month. Attending a huge hunting and fishing expo. So as you can guess they was a lot of foot traffic. After exiting the store I made my way down the sidewalk to the cross walk ramp. I noted a Ford explorer parked on the sidewalk. As my wife and I crossed behind the explorer I caught, out of the corner of my eye, the reverse lights come on and the car starting to back up. Having no time to leap out of the way I pushed my wife ahead and tapped the back of the car with my hand. The idea was to get the driver's attention seeing that it was raining out and all of the windows were up (no way she could her us). After we crossed the street and a few angry comments were shouted. I heard a man's voice yell "Keep your damn comments to yourself". As I turned around I saw this average build man charging across the street with fire in his eyes. (The last guy I saw with this kind of fire in his eyes told me that he was going to kill me and we both ended up in a huge fist fight.) Having a public servant's job and a wife now my temper has calmed over the years. As he stepped up on the curb I watched his right hand go in to his pocket. Why at the time I wasn't positive. But I was thinking GUN. This guy had no idea that I was about to draw down on him because I thought he might be going for a gun. It turns out that he was reaching for a cell phone. How the hell was I suppose to know that. I saw a lump in his pocket it could have been a keltec, a colt .25, a knife, pepper spray. After a shouting match for a couple of mins. I walked away from the guy. Not wanting to get in a fist fight it front of a couple hundred people. After I got home I was thinking what if that was a gun? I was already behind in my draw. Should I have got myself ready when he crossed the street? I was complacaint; thinking it was just another guy puffing his chest out at me. So what if I did draw down on this guy in the middle of a busy walk way? What about public opinion, witnesses, anti-gun people (The area attracts those types).
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:51:14 AM EST
When he started toward you. Public Servant? Should've drawn your badge too.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:53:25 AM EST
I'm a FF not a LEO
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:55:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:35:53 AM EST by rifleman2000]
Better judged by six twelve then carried by twelve six. Your story makes it hard to make a judgement, though. Was the man driving the Explorer? Why was he confrontational?

Edited: Because I am dumb.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:56:09 AM EST
All the more reason to practice, practice, and practice some more woth your carry weapon. You may have been behind in the draw, but if you shoot straighter you will still have the advantage.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:58:51 AM EST
Tough call. I think you really had to be there (like you were) to know how to handle it.


Monday Morning Quarterbacking, it sounds like you should have gotten the gun into action early, and maybe just have it ready.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:02:33 AM EST
He must have been unloading the car for this expo, because a woman was driving the car and the windows were up so she couldn't have heard what we said. The thing that kills me is that he denied her backing up. I didn't even see this guy till he charged across the street. The guy was one of the presenters for the expo. He was trying to egg me on as well calling me little guy? I'm 6'1" 235lbs WTF
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:04:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:07:24 AM EST by the1_roadrunner]
I gotta know.... who did he call on the cell phone?

edited to add- and no you should have not drawn your weapon.

--RR
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:07:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:
I'm a FF not a LEO



From across the street, it likely wouldn't have mattered, he'd be too far away to read it, and hopefully would have done a 180 and put his tail back between his legs.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:07:20 AM EST
Plenty of justifiable homicides for less...

-Z
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:08:09 AM EST
Next time just let him back into you then sue his ass for a couple million. Or at least tell him that is what you should have done when he started yelling at you. Make him think about his actions.

As for drawing first in a wide open public area after having a verbal confrontation with him...not a good idea if you like your public service job. Instead focus on finding cover first then drawing if need be.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:09:08 AM EST
Depending on your state, you may be considered a Peace Officer.

Most states allow the presentation of deadly force when one fears for one's life, and has "reasonable belief" that a weapon is about to be used, or is present.

Check you local codes. As far as the job, ask your Chief (if he's cool / knows you carry off duty) what you might expect if you're involved in an off-duty incident.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:10:16 AM EST
Wow - you live in NH and haven't been to SIG or LFI yet?
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:11:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By the1_roadrunner:
I gotta know.... who did he call on the cell phone?

edited to add- and no you should have not drawn your weapon.

--RR



He was gonna call that 75-yr old grandma who needed tazin.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:12:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By pazzo:

Originally Posted By the1_roadrunner:
I gotta know.... who did he call on the cell phone?

edited to add- and no you should have not drawn your weapon.

--RR



He was gonna call that 75-yr old grandma who needed tazin.



Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:13:18 AM EST
hard call, I think you have to at least draw your weapon out and down. Most of the time just the sight would back him off.

Im glad you lived to tell, there are way to many excons out there
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:15:38 AM EST
I very well might have drawn to low ready, especially with the screaming and the hands in the pockets.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:21:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Better judged by six then carried by twelve. Your story makes it hard to make a judgement, though. Was the man driving the Explorer? Why was he confrontational?



You got that backwards- judged by 12 than carried by 6. Unless you're particularly obese, it might take 12.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:24:46 AM EST
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:25:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:27:38 AM EST by thesacrifice]
simple

were you in fear for your life? If yes, draw.. if no... dont

Think of it this way, if you HAD drawn, where would it have gone.... What if he called your bluff? would you have shot him over a verbal altercation?
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:34:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:40:47 AM EST by hamptonyellowdog]

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"

I've taken a handgun class (NRA) I don't remember them talking about the angry red neck wanting to kick my ass because his "old lady" backed into my wife and I. What I do remember is not putting myself in scenarios that require the use of my firearm.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:36:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Better judged by six then carried by twelve. Your story makes it hard to make a judgement, though. Was the man driving the Explorer? Why was he confrontational?



You got that backwards- judged by 12 than carried by 6. Unless you're particularly obese, it might take 12.



Damn, I am dumb.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:43:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:45:14 AM EST by crowboy]

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"



If your going to carry you have to be a hell of a lot smarter than that , I teach NRA CCW/Pistol and Personal Protection and we stress these kinds of situations to our students. When you take on the responsibility of carrying a weapon you must avoid confrontational situations at all costs.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:46:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"



The verbal confrontation would make it harder to justify drawing a gun, though you would still be justified if you felt in fear of your life.

Man, I try to avoid confrontations when carrying, but I wasn't there...

Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:48:29 AM EST
You made it home, mission accomplished
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:49:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By crowboy:

If your going to carry you have to be a hell of a lot smarter than that , I teach NRA CCW/Pistol and Personal Protection and we stress these kinds of situations to our students. When you take on the responsibility of carrying a weapon you must avoid confrontational situations at all costs.



+1.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:55:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
You made it home, mission accomplished



+1. And no dogs got shot; which makes it even better.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:59:06 AM EST
I teach my children to be especially careful when walking between cars in parking lots etc. Here in So. Kalif-ornia we have a lot of inexperinced and new drivers. I have seen a lot of people pop it into gear and drive without looking. I also tell my children make sure that the driver is committed one way or the other before you continue walking
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:08:03 PM EST
It's easy to criticize since I wasn't there...but yelling _____________, BITCH at the woman probably started the ball rolling down hill. Put yourself in the other guy's place...maybe that was his wife, girlfriend, etc. Woulnd't hearing your wife being called a bitch get your dander up? So what was the guy's beef...you say you yelled at each other, did he ever say..."hey, that's my wife" or anything like that? Some folks don't like to hear women called "bitch" on general principle.

Were your angry comments to the woman really necessary? By your own admission, it was difficult to see; I seriously doubt she was trying to run you over, so swearing at her was a little uncalled for, imho, and appears to have precipitated a situation that didn't need to happen. Would this guy have charged you had you not made the comments? He probably wouldn't have even know what happened, let alone felt it necessary to become involved.



Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:34:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"

I've taken a handgun class (NRA) I don't remember them talking about the angry red neck wanting to kick my ass because his "old lady" backed into my wife and I. What I do remember is not putting myself in scenarios that require the use of my firearm.



So the woman accidently put the vehicle in reverse with you behind it and in front of all those people you screamed at her calling her a bitch.

You shouldn't leave the house with a loaded gun until you resolve these anger issues you seem to have.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:35:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 12:42:14 PM EST by ChiefPilot]

After we crossed the street and a few angry comments were shouted.


Refraining from the comments likely would have avoided the entire situation.


/I'm just sayin'....
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 1:29:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 1:40:39 PM EST by hamptonyellowdog]

Originally Posted By jimb100:

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"

I've taken a handgun class (NRA) I don't remember them talking about the angry red neck wanting to kick my ass because his "old lady" backed into my wife and I. What I do remember is not putting myself in scenarios that require the use of my firearm.



So the woman accidently put the vehicle in reverse with you behind it and in front of all those people you screamed at her calling her a bitch.

You shouldn't leave the house with a loaded gun until you resolve these anger issues you seem to have.


Putting yourself in the same spot. What would you have done. Say nothing at all. I don't consider a few comments directed at a person who was illegally parked and not paying attention. A anger issue. The purpose of this post wasn't to judge my actions prior to the conflict. Although words can be unkind in the heat of the moment. As the man confronted me he never once ask me what happened or asked what provoked me to say what I said. So as far as taking sole blame for the incident even occurring I don't feel that I was wrong. Nor do I think that I should have to walk around on eggshells when it comes to everyone elses feelings.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 1:44:47 PM EST
Cowboy,
Good post!
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:58:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By jimb100:

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"

I've taken a handgun class (NRA) I don't remember them talking about the angry red neck wanting to kick my ass because his "old lady" backed into my wife and I. What I do remember is not putting myself in scenarios that require the use of my firearm.





So the woman accidently put the vehicle in reverse with you behind it and in front of all those people you screamed at her calling her a bitch.

You shouldn't leave the house with a loaded gun until you resolve these anger issues you seem to have.


Putting yourself in the same spot. What would you have done. Say nothing at all. I don't consider a few comments directed at a person who was illegally parked and not paying attention. A anger issue. The purpose of this post wasn't to judge my actions prior to the conflict. Although words can be unkind in the heat of the moment. As the man confronted me he never once ask me what happened or asked what provoked me to say what I said. So as far as taking sole blame for the incident even occurring I don't feel that I was wrong. Nor do I think that I should have to walk around on eggshells when it comes to everyone elses feelings.



Once you take on the RESPONSIBILITY of carrying a weapon in public, your actions prior to any conflict WILL be judged and should be judged and yes you do have to walk on eggshells so to speak when you are carrying, thats just the way it is. If you want to get into verbal confrontations in public whenever someone wrongs you in a real or percieved way you should not carry. Carrying is for life and death situations not for "drawing down" on someone that has pissed you off and that includes someone who accidentaly might hit or look like they might hit you with a car. No offense but not everyone should carry and you seem to fall into that catagory, I would suggest that you get some counseling on your anger management before you carry a weapon again.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 4:55:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 4:57:22 PM EST by hamptonyellowdog]

Originally Posted By crowboy:

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By jimb100:

Originally Posted By hamptonyellowdog:

Originally Posted By schiffj1:
First of all, I would like to know what "angry comments" you said to that woman?

Second, if your going to carry you should know better than to be shouting "angry comments" in public. Try keeping your mouth shut and take a handgun class.




I think it was "You dumb ass are you trying to run us down" "Don't park on the sidewalk b#tch"

I've taken a handgun class (NRA) I don't remember them talking about the angry red neck wanting to kick my ass because his "old lady" backed into my wife and I. What I do remember is not putting myself in scenarios that require the use of my firearm.





So the woman accidently put the vehicle in reverse with you behind it and in front of all those people you screamed at her calling her a bitch.

You shouldn't leave the house with a loaded gun until you resolve these anger issues you seem to have.


Putting yourself in the same spot. What would you have done. Say nothing at all. I don't consider a few comments directed at a person who was illegally parked and not paying attention. A anger issue. The purpose of this post wasn't to judge my actions prior to the conflict. Although words can be unkind in the heat of the moment. As the man confronted me he never once ask me what happened or asked what provoked me to say what I said. So as far as taking sole blame for the incident even occurring I don't feel that I was wrong. Nor do I think that I should have to walk around on eggshells when it comes to everyone elses feelings.



Once you take on the RESPONSIBILITY of carrying a weapon in public, your actions prior to any conflict WILL be judged and should be judged and yes you do have to walk on eggshells so to speak when you are carrying, thats just the way it is. If you want to get into verbal confrontations in public whenever someone wrongs you in a real or percieved way you should not carry. Carrying is for life and death situations not for "drawing down" on someone that has pissed you off and that includes someone who accidentaly might hit or look like they might hit you with a car. No offense but not everyone should carry and you seem to fall into that catagory, I would suggest that you get some counseling on your anger management before you carry a weapon again.



I'm sorry that there are people on this thread that feel that I have this huge ANGER Problem. I have never had anyone mention this before. All these years with the same friends and family and not a single person has ever said anything wow. Maybe I'll just sell all my guns cut off my balls and never stand up for myself or my family again. I thought this guy charged me. I'm the one who walked away from the car and the angry man. If I had a rage issue don't you think I would have charged him or even worse her. You guys are giving me a complex
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 5:23:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By thesacrifice:
simple

were you in fear for your life? If yes, draw.. if no... dont

Think of it this way, if you HAD drawn, where would it have gone.... What if he called your bluff? would you have shot him over a verbal altercation?



As we all know, deadly force can only be used when there is an "unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily injury." Showing the gun may have gotten the response of "What are you going to do with that? C'Mon, shoot me..."
Make all the more sence to have a hammerless in the coat pocket..... with your hand. Worst case, you could shoot thru the jacket. JMHO.
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