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Posted: 8/29/2004 10:04:58 AM EST
There's not many options for mounting a light to my rail-less Sig. I could trade it in for a rail equiped model or another rail equiped gun, but before I go through the trouble I'd like to know if it's worth it. Do the advantages of having a mounted light outweigh the money and time it'll take to get a pistol with rails?

BTW, I'm considering the light equip. for a house gun and for low light competitions.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:07:36 AM EST
I don't have one, but I'd worry that the CON is that you're pretty much pinpointing your position to anyone you're not blinding with it.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:08:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:09:36 AM EST
shoot at the light! makes for a easy headshot
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:11:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 10:13:45 AM EST by triburst1]
I prefer to have the light seperate from the pistol. For a defensive gun, it is nearly impossible to carry one with the light attatched. It is quicker to draw the weapon and light simultaneously and bring them together on the target. Having the light seperate also allows you to use the light to search, navigate, and identify with out having to point your muzzle at everything and everyone.

I am, however, a big proponent of lights mounted on shoulder weapons.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:13:01 AM EST
The big advantage is you can keep both hands on the weapon.

The big disadvantage (in my opinion) is that you end up muzzle-sweeping anything you wish to illuminate.

I'm just a fat slob w/ a kimber and a surefire, not a high speed low drag special dude of any sort. So for my needs (investigating various household bumps in the night for instance) I'm more worried about sweeping something with the muzzle before I've properly identified it. I decided to go with just a surefire in one hand and the gun in the other. YMMV
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:13:03 AM EST
The pro is you can keep both hands on the weapon and have the light available to clearly identify the target.
The con is that the weapon becomes bulky with it on and is more difficult to find a holster that fits properly.

If I could, I'd put a light on every firearm I own unless it violated a law, as with hunting firearms.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:22:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 10:25:04 AM EST by photoman]

ETA: got this from a news photos for gun nuts thread, thanks lumpy.
Ask these guys if a light on a gun is a good idea. Notice where the potential hostils are looking. Away from that bright ass light.

I don't buy the boradcasting your locations shit, and the fiear of giving an aiming point to the BG. There are was to minimise all that shit. Take a class in how to use a gun with a light in low light situations and you will learn the right way to do it. Thats one thing I haven't done yet myself, but need to. There are some easy things that you can do to minimize some of that stuff. If you don't have to don't use it constant on. If you got to light something up light it up for ID kill the light and than move, bounce the light of another area(wall) so it doesn't look like the light is coming from where it is shit like that.

I'm a fan of lights and guns it helps ID targets. Had a situation where I could ahve easily blown a friends head off had I not had a light to ID who the fuck was in my house(when no one was suposed to be there). So from a it saved my ass from shooting a friend and my friends ass from getting shot prospective, lights are good.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 10:24:54 AM EST
If you're "broadcasting your location" you're doing it wrong, and you'd be doing the same thing with the light in your hand, unless you're going back to that old FBI technique.

I too want to put a light on my Glock 19 house gun. I live alone so I don't really care about sweeping anyone or anything.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 11:03:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 2:12:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
My tactics are from the military - darkness is our friend.



It is, but IDing the taget is important.
Don't walk around with the light on. Turn it on only when you need it.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 2:15:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 3:52:01 PM EST
Remember the guy on "Silence of the Lambs" when he was down in the basement w/Jody Foster? (Besides me being jealous of both basement/Jody Foster w/nvg's) he had nvg's and they didn't help him . So see they aren't that great. Just kidding. When I was instructing people on defensive handgun , part of one of the advanced classes had a bit on house clearing with a flashlight. One thing that really works well on illuminating the whole room at once is the light switch! And if you know your house then you know where the light switches are. Present as little target as you can, turn the light switch on , if no bad guy turn the light off and proceed to the next room. You don't want to silouette your self in the door way. Continue with that until you find him or her . If you have no power then what we taught was the foster technique. hand gun in strong hand and flashlight in the other with the back of the hands pushing against each other. Now that the tail cap is available you should be able to clear an entire building with only intermittant use of light. This will not give away your position or telegraph your movements. All things being the same being able to identify your target should be that easy. Do some practice at night . Use a toy gun or your hand becomes a "handgun"and practice. look for places for cover and be aware of angles where a BG might be able to see you first. Also you can look at things the way a BG would. Anyway I hope this helped somepeople . Take care. Coondog
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 4:00:33 PM EST
pro: target indenification
con: anything you light up is at the business end of your weapon, including friendlies.

Most will advise you on having two sources of light at your disposal.

J
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 4:08:25 PM EST
you can get an M3 with a mount, fits on the trigger guard. I have one on my 92fs (I assume they make one for a sig...)
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:21:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 7:22:37 PM EST by Boom_Stick]

Originally Posted By Avtomat:
you can get an M3 with a mount, fits on the trigger guard. I have one on my 92fs (I assume they make one for a sig...)



You mean this setup? I just recently found this PIC.


It looks a little ungainly, but besides upgrading to a Railed Sig or a Glock it may be my only option.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:27:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 7:30:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By coondog:
Remember the guy on "Silence of the Lambs" when he was down in the basement w/Jody Foster? (Besides me being jealous of both basement/Jody Foster w/nvg's) he had nvg's and they didn't help him . So see they aren't that great. Just kidding. When I was instructing people on defensive handgun , part of one of the advanced classes had a bit on house clearing with a flashlight. One thing that really works well on illuminating the whole room at once is the light switch! And if you know your house then you know where the light switches are. Present as little target as you can, turn the light switch on , if no bad guy turn the light off and proceed to the next room. You don't want to silouette your self in the door way. Continue with that until you find him or her . If you have no power then what we taught was the foster technique. hand gun in strong hand and flashlight in the other with the back of the hands pushing against each other. Now that the tail cap is available you should be able to clear an entire building with only intermittant use of light. This will not give away your position or telegraph your movements. All things being the same being able to identify your target should be that easy. Do some practice at night . Use a toy gun or your hand becomes a "handgun"and practice. look for places for cover and be aware of angles where a BG might be able to see you first. Also you can look at things the way a BG would. Anyway I hope this helped somepeople . Take care. Coondog



Paragraphs are sweet and buy sweet I meen totally cool.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:11:16 PM EST
What, are some of you gonna shoot at shadows in your house? I guess you could always "aim for the muzzle flash". Can you name one firearm class that recommends *not* using a weaopn light?
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:17:18 PM EST
Try even looking at the light coming from my UTL in complete darkness. I have one, I figure if I get disturbed from a sleep, I'll have just about as good of night vision as you can get. From there, I can at least spot a target, and then use the UTL to blind the hell out of it and get an ID of what it is.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:21:45 PM EST
Pro: additional light other than the muzzle flash
Con: Lets BGs know where you are if you don't use it right.

That said, I have two firearms with light rails but I don't use them. I think that having the rails there but not needing them is more advantageous than not having them there and maybe needing them.

If I get CCW it's a totally different story and the gun will be streamlined and rail-less.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:34:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
My tactics are from the military - darkness is our friend.




However, in the civilian world, engaging something you havent identified could put you in a world of legal shit...




The following is a true story.


Late on night when everyone else was asleep I heard a loud popping noise coming from the back yard.

SO I grab my flashlight and my 1911. I walk out back and check...nothing. SO I walk around the side of the house to check the front. As I apporaoch the front of the house I see a shadow by the front door. I wait. As the shadow comes around the corner I blind it with the light...I am nervous as hell...I have the 1911 about ready to come up. Then I see what I am shining the light at. It was my 16 y.o. son how laso heard the noise and came out the front door to investigate, and he had his baseball bat.

And that is why I always take a light out with me.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:07:39 AM EST
My god people. I will bet whatever you wish to wager, that I can tag your azz faster and with quicker lethality in a no light scenario than your lighted scenario.

I pick darkness every time. I challenge ANYONE to this. Of course we cannot use firearms - we will resort to paintball equipment.

Are you people really that blind in the dark?

I swear this is a standing challenge.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:11:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 1:11:28 AM EST by olyarms]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
My tactics are from the military - darkness is our friend.




However, in the civilian world, engaging something you havent identified could put you in a world of legal shit...




The following is a true story.


Late on night when everyone else was asleep I heard a loud popping noise coming from the back yard.

SO I grab my flashlight and my 1911. I walk out back and check...nothing. SO I walk around the side of the house to check the front. As I apporaoch the front of the house I see a shadow by the front door. I wait. As the shadow comes around the corner I blind it with the light...I am nervous as hell...I have the 1911 about ready to come up. Then I see what I am shining the light at. It was my 16 y.o. son how laso heard the noise and came out the front door to investigate, and he had his baseball bat.

And that is why I always take a light out with me.


SGatr15


Lucky your kid didn't come up behind you.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:12:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
My god people. I will bet whatever you wish to wager, that I can tag your azz faster and with quicker lethality in a no light scenario than your lighted scenario.

I pick darkness every time. I challenge ANYONE to this. Of course we cannot use firearms - we will resort to paintball equipment.

Are you people really that blind in the dark?

I swear this is a standing challenge.


Every one is blind in the dark if you come from a lighted area to a dark area rapidly.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:47:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 2:50:26 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
There's not many options for mounting a light to my rail-less Sig. I could trade it in for a rail equiped model or another rail equiped gun, but before I go through the trouble I'd like to know if it's worth it. Do the advantages of having a mounted light outweigh the money and time it'll take to get a pistol with rails?

BTW, I'm considering the light equip. for a house gun and for low light competitions.



If used properly, there are no cons.

If used improperly, the con is that you are pointing your weapon at whatever you illuminate.

A pistol mounted light IS NOT a replacement for a traditional seperate light. MERELY AN ADDED CAPABILITY.

Guys who break down doors or hunt down bad terrorist types in caves need weapon mounted lights on their handguns. Civvys who can get into a whole world of legal trouble wouldn't necessarily be wise to use their gun like a flashlight.

The whole "it will give bad guys something to shoot at" nonsense should be discounted. A weapon mounted light is no more likely to get you shot at than a traditional hand held light. Yes criminals will shoot for the light. But that's why we practice good lighting tactics....
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:50:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
There's not many options for mounting a light to my rail-less Sig. I could trade it in for a rail equiped model or another rail equiped gun, but before I go through the trouble I'd like to know if it's worth it. Do the advantages of having a mounted light outweigh the money and time it'll take to get a pistol with rails?

BTW, I'm considering the light equip. for a house gun and for low light competitions.



I believe Brownells sells an accessory rail for railless Sigs.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:52:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
shoot at the light! makes for a easy headshot




Not that easy.

And you SHOULD still be using cover anyway.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:02:03 AM EST
I have a light mounted on my home defense G35 and the main advantage is see is that i have a light, a handgun and 20 rounds of .40 all in one package. I also keep a handheld light next to it in my Gunvault but figure that its more likely that i'll forget to grab it than not. I have little kids so i'm also likely to have to grab a kid under my arm to move them to the safe room so i need everthing operable with one hand.

My plan is to keep the light off as long as possible, then if i need to ID a human shape in the darkness i'll turn my light on from the low ready, illuminating the person while not covering them with the muzzle. If i have to shoot i'll just leave the light on to ensure that the BG is really down and he didn't bring any friends along.

I don't go for the flash/shoot/move technique cause in my house its crowded enough that i'm not going to move far without bumping in to something (and forget stepping on one of those tiny damn legos in my bare feet!) plus i will have lost my night vision and element of surprise so i'd just as soon be able to see the room clearly and give them a blinding light to look at while i'm shouting commands at them, shooting etc.

Disadvantages are holster selection depending on your rail selection.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:04:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By curt:
(and forget stepping on one of those tiny damn legos in my bare feet!)



reason enuf to have a weps mounted light.
Oohhh. OUCH!!!!!



Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:10:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By Avtomat:
you can get an M3 with a mount, fits on the trigger guard. I have one on my 92fs (I assume they make one for a sig...)



You mean this setup? I just recently found this PIC.
www.insightlights.com/uploads/photos/full/m3led_on_sig.jpg

It looks a little ungainly, but besides upgrading to a Railed Sig or a Glock it may be my only option.

something like that, although mine seems less complicated and slicker
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:52:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

I believe Brownells sells an accessory rail for railless Sigs.




I did a quick search on Brownells and couldn't find anything. Is it a permanent mount?

Could anyone provide me with a link?

Doesn't SureFire offer some type of add-on rail?

TIA,

Corey
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:21:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By Avtomat:
you can get an M3 with a mount, fits on the trigger guard. I have one on my 92fs (I assume they make one for a sig...)



You mean this setup? I just recently found this PIC.
www.insightlights.com/uploads/photos/full/m3led_on_sig.jpg

It looks a little ungainly, but besides upgrading to a Railed Sig or a Glock it may be my only option.



The extra bulk is increased with the addition of the laser module on the M6-series. The M3 doesn't have that and is a lot trimmer. When you use the adapter, the light drops down about 1/2 inch, but it's not too bad.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:35:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Corey:

Originally Posted By garandman:

I believe Brownells sells an accessory rail for railless Sigs.




I did a quick search on Brownells and couldn't find anything. Is it a permanent mount?

Could anyone provide me with a link?

Doesn't SureFire offer some type of add-on rail?

TIA,

Corey



Yah surefire has one that they make, pretty nice for what it is. I got one for use on my beretta, but decided I liked having the light not on that particular gun and sold it(the adaptor) to a friend. THe next handgun I guy will have a rail spesificly for a light.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:39:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 7:41:43 AM EST by jtb33]

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:

Originally Posted By Avtomat:
you can get an M3 with a mount, fits on the trigger guard. I have one on my 92fs (I assume they make one for a sig...)



You mean this setup? I just recently found this PIC.
www.insightlights.com/uploads/photos/full/m3led_on_sig.jpg

It looks a little ungainly, but besides upgrading to a Railed Sig or a Glock it may be my only option.



I had that setup on my SIG P220 (streamlight rail and ITI M6 laser/light - exactly as pictured). The problem was that the actuator to switch on the light was WAAY too far away to operate with the hand you're holding the gun with, so it requires two hands to use it. I ditched it quickly. However, on a Glock, the M6 is perfect.

EDIT: I just noticed that the above setup has a remote pressure switch... I didn't have that for mine, but it would be necessary to use the above setup.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:46:26 AM EST
OK, I understand target identification. I've trained on the use of tactical application of illumination. Mounted lights were never addressed due to exposing yourself as a target. My training (private contract, executive protection) approached the issue with emphasis on one-handed target aquisition, light deterrence (holding flashlight to side or above head), and spot lighting (engaging light on target after visual contact).

My best advice echoes that of a previous poster - your best lighting scenario would be the use of a light switch.

I still advocate the no-light contact tactic.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:08:15 AM EST
I've thought about this thread for a bit,

1) As someone else said a weapon mounted light is in ADDITION to a handheld light.
2) Target identification is neccesary in most situations.

Next, most people shoot better with 2 hands on the gun, much better in most cases. Police, and military train in methods to use handheld lights while putting two hands on the gun.

Only the FBI widely trained a 1 hand, flashlight away from the body position.

I've have never heard of an incident in civilian LE that a flashlight was "shot at". Usually BG's can use ambient light to see shapes, or movement, and if the are inclined to shoot they will when they can.

Using a flashlight in a tactical situation, isn't like using a flashlight to change a fuse.

illuminate, scan, move, and repeat. The light should go on for less than a second, cover and sound movement principles still need to be considered.

The military is now mounting signifigant numbers of white lights on their weapons. If the advantages didn't signifigantly outweigh the disadvantages they wouldn't do it.

Next, combining the gun-light into a single system gives you something very important................. a free hand. Whether that is needed to open doors, use a radio, or any other task, you can maintain your readiness to confront a threat.

Also most untrained people will reflexively turn away from a bright light....................not confront it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:46:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
I've thought about this thread for a bit,

1) As someone else said a weapon mounted light is in ADDITION to a handheld light.
2) Target identification is neccesary in most situations.

Next, most people shoot better with 2 hands on the gun, much better in most cases. Police, and military train in methods to use handheld lights while putting two hands on the gun.

Only the FBI widely trained a 1 hand, flashlight away from the body position.

I've have never heard of an incident in civilian LE that a flashlight was "shot at". Usually BG's can use ambient light to see shapes, or movement, and if the are inclined to shoot they will when they can.

Using a flashlight in a tactical situation, isn't like using a flashlight to change a fuse.

illuminate, scan, move, and repeat. The light should go on for less than a second, cover and sound movement principles still need to be considered.

The military is now mounting signifigant numbers of white lights on their weapons. If the advantages didn't signifigantly outweigh the disadvantages they wouldn't do it.

Next, combining the gun-light into a single system gives you something very important................. a free hand. Whether that is needed to open doors, use a radio, or any other task, you can maintain your readiness to confront a threat.

Also most untrained people will reflexively turn away from a bright light....................not confront it.



Hey are you going to try and make the class were trying to set up in the HT forum? Check out the thread on it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:36:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
My tactics are from the military - darkness is our friend.



So are illumination flares. Just not inside the house.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 10:59:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 11:05:32 AM EST by Corey]

Originally Posted By Corey:

Originally Posted By garandman:

I believe Brownells sells an accessory rail for railless Sigs.




I did a quick search on Brownells and couldn't find anything. Is it a permanent mount?

Could anyone provide me with a link?

Doesn't SureFire offer some type of add-on rail?

TIA,

Corey



Here is what the helpful tech at Brownells found for me:

Streamlight M3 clamp on light adapters.



Brightflashlights is researching the SureFire equivalent for me.

Corey

EDITED to mention the great customer service of Brightflashlights. He's ordering a SureFire clamp on X200 mount to take pictures of it for me! Brightflashlights rocks!!
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 12:58:09 PM EST
Surefire provides a rail with their nitrolon series of pistol lights. It clamps on to the triggerguard. I believe it is similar to what glock uses for their integrated rail. There's a company that makes a bolt on rail adaptor for the 1911. It's what the marines are using for Force Recon.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:46:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 2:47:56 PM EST by Corey]

Originally Posted By Stryfe:
Surefire provides a rail with their nitrolon series of pistol lights. It clamps on to the triggerguard.



Brightflashlights has one on order and will send me pics next week. It is apparently 1/2 the price of the Streamlight clamp on rail and sounds like it's made for their new X200.


There's a company that makes a bolt on rail adaptor for the 1911. It's what the marines are using for Force Recon.


Dawson. And it's recommended that it be welded to the 1911 dustcover.

Caspian also markets a bolt on rail.

EDITED for typos and bad editing before I hit send.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 2:52:04 PM EST
The "pro" is that you can actually see what you're about to kill before you shoot.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:35:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 4:36:48 PM EST by Boom_Stick]
Corey, I'd like to see the PIC's as well.

This is the kind of adapter I'd like to see available for the Sig. It's a perm type of attachment but it's small and out of the way unlike that streamlight mostrosity that attaches to the trigger guard.


Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:40:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 4:49:40 PM EST by GunnyG]
www.tdi-arms.com/_Articles/Article.asp?CategoryID=73&ArticleID=9

for Sig 226/228/229 and FN Pistols.... I ordered one for my HiPower from www.tjgeneralstore.com...we'll see...
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 4:40:59 PM EST


my setup
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:14:39 PM EST
About 5 feet from my head....


All the bedrooms are on the 2nd floor, if I hear a BG I just have to protect the landing/stairway. If a BG is upstairs already I'm most likely already in trouble....






I don't like these thoughts but........... life is... we'll.... a Reality......
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:44:35 PM EST
I was reading an artical today that says the chances of you having to use your firearm in self defense in a low light or no light situation was 75% so I beleive a light or laser or both (M6- my choice) is a good idea
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:50:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2004 5:53:19 PM EST by SNorman]

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
My god people. I will bet whatever you wish to wager, that I can tag your azz faster and with quicker lethality in a no light scenario than your lighted scenario.

I pick darkness every time. I challenge ANYONE to this. Of course we cannot use firearms - we will resort to paintball equipment.

Are you people really that blind in the dark?

I swear this is a standing challenge.



Are you serious? Or is this a joke? If everyone went out with your "I'm super lethal, when my piece comes out all shadows will DIE!" we would have at least 1 killed friend and 1 killed son from what's been posted so far alone. Wtf dude.

How about you take the challenge with two guys, one is friendly and one is the BG. If you pop the friendly in the dark you lose.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 5:58:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
Corey, I'd like to see the PIC's as well.



Wilco.

(Can someone bump this thread in a week to remind me though?)

Corey

PS I'm really excited to see the SF entry into this area. I took it from BF's email that SF had one made specifically for the X200. We'll see.
Link Posted: 9/1/2004 6:01:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
My god people. I will bet whatever you wish to wager, that I can tag your azz faster and with quicker lethality in a no light scenario than your lighted scenario.

I pick darkness every time. I challenge ANYONE to this. Of course we cannot use firearms - we will resort to paintball equipment.

Are you people really that blind in the dark?

I swear this is a standing challenge.



Are you serious? Or is this a joke? If everyone went out with your "I'm super lethal, when my piece comes out all shadows will DIE!" we would have at least 1 killed friend and 1 killed son from what's been posted so far alone. Wtf dude.

How about you take the challenge with two guys, one is friendly and one is the BG. If you pop the friendly in the dark you lose.



I absolutely agree with SNorman.

I also agree with what OLY-M4gery posted previously. A pistol mounted light is not a substitute for carrying one (or two) handheld lights.

Corey
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