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Posted: 8/6/2007 1:26:59 PM EST
I spoke with a man today, that I respect very much, and learned he is an amillenialist.  Now, let me first say, the longer I study the more lenient I've become in my eschatological views.  Why?  It is clearly something, I believe, that is to be revealed.  

For anyone to claim, they absolutely know, for example, Jesus is coming in 2 years and there will be turtle sundae trees in heaven, is stepping out of bounds.  There are many mysteries in the Bible, those things which God will not reveal to us until we meet Him face to face.

So, I was interested in finding out what everyone's view of end times is?  Which camp are you in?  

I'm interested in truly learning about these other viewpoints, not arguing, for God's word is never to be argued or debated.  

I was raised pre-milleniallist -- but that may change.   Everyone, please feel free to share in a learning spirit.

He also asked me study the following Scriptures and answer the following questions.

Q:  When did Jesus say he would return? (Ref. Matt. 16:27-28 (cross-ref. Rev. 22:12); Matt. 24:34; Matt. 10:23; Matt. 23:34-37 (cross-ref. Rev. 17:5-6))

Q:  Who is guilty of all innocent blood? (see Rev. 1:1-3)

Q:  When were these things to happen?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/6/2007 3:45:35 PM EST
[#1]
I would love to answer, and fully intend to, but if you'll excuse the delay in my response, I find I must go get my dictionary.  I'll be back.
Link Posted: 8/6/2007 4:41:30 PM EST
[#2]
Thanks, I look forward to it!
Link Posted: 8/7/2007 1:13:08 PM EST
[#3]

Quoted:
I spoke with a man today, that I respect very much, and learned he is an amillenialist.  Now, let me first say, the longer I study the more lenient I've become in my eschatological views.  Why?  It is clearly something, I believe, that is to be revealed.  

For anyone to claim, they absolutely know, for example, Jesus is coming in 2 years and there will be turtle sundae trees in heaven, is stepping out of bounds.  There are many mysteries in the Bible, those things which God will not reveal to us until we meet Him face to face.

So, I was interested in finding out what everyone's view of end times is?  Which camp are you in?  

I'm interested in truly learning about these other viewpoints, not arguing, for God's word is never to be argued or debated.  

I was raised pre-milleniallist -- but that may change.   Everyone, please feel free to share in a learning spirit.

He also asked me study the following Scriptures and answer the following questions.

Q:  When did Jesus say he would return? (Ref. Matt. 16:27-28 (cross-ref. Rev. 22:12); Matt. 24:34; Matt. 10:23; Matt. 23:34-37 (cross-ref. Rev. 17:5-6))

Q:  Who is guilty of all innocent blood? (see Rev. 1:1-3)

Q:  When were these things to happen?

Thanks!


I used to wonder about those things when I was younger, now I just look forward to whatever God has chosen to do with the after times. I think too many people spend their efforts thinking on the final outcome, than on the work we should be doing to spread the Gospel at present, if it could just be done without judgement of each other, imagine the outcome of that!  Everyday becomes the end times for someone, the half has never been told and the other half comes by revelation in the spirit.

I was going to add more, but, probably not what you were wanting to hear.


Link Posted: 8/8/2007 4:14:42 PM EST
[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I spoke with a man today, that I respect very much, and learned he is an amillenialist.  Now, let me first say, the longer I study the more lenient I've become in my eschatological views.  Why?  It is clearly something, I believe, that is to be revealed.  

For anyone to claim, they absolutely know, for example, Jesus is coming in 2 years and there will be turtle sundae trees in heaven, is stepping out of bounds.  There are many mysteries in the Bible, those things which God will not reveal to us until we meet Him face to face.

So, I was interested in finding out what everyone's view of end times is?  Which camp are you in?  

I'm interested in truly learning about these other viewpoints, not arguing, for God's word is never to be argued or debated.  

I was raised pre-milleniallist -- but that may change.   Everyone, please feel free to share in a learning spirit.

He also asked me study the following Scriptures and answer the following questions.

Q:  When did Jesus say he would return? (Ref. Matt. 16:27-28 (cross-ref. Rev. 22:12); Matt. 24:34; Matt. 10:23; Matt. 23:34-37 (cross-ref. Rev. 17:5-6))

Q:  Who is guilty of all innocent blood? (see Rev. 1:1-3)

Q:  When were these things to happen?

Thanks!


I used to wonder about those things when I was younger, now I just look forward to whatever God has chosen to do with the after times. I think too many people spend their efforts thinking on the final outcome, than on the work we should be doing to spread the Gospel at present, if it could just be done without judgement of each other, imagine the outcome of that!  Everyday becomes the end times for someone, the half has never been told and the other half comes by revelation in the spirit.

I was going to add more, but, probably not what you were wanting to hear.




For awhile, my thoughts ran along a similar plane.  I dismissed the doctrines concerning last things for many reasons.

A few of them are:
1.  I feel many believers spend too much time arguing about it, instead of adding to the kingdom of God
2.  There's many theories, any of which, depending on interpretation, could largely be true
3.  Your eschatological view doesn't have any bearing on your spiritual destiny.  Regardless of what we believe about His coming, it does not add or subtract from the finished work of Christ performed in our hearts, once we accept Him as Savior and Lord.

I could name a few more but, suffice it to say, there are other areas of the Scriptures that demand our attention in our daily walk with the Lord.

I was interested in finding out other's viewpoints after having this discussion yesterday.  He recently led a pastoral conference, speaking to 4,000 pastors, on this very subject.  So, I gave it a mention.
Link Posted: 8/8/2007 4:18:43 PM EST
[#5]
I believe that there is no end times, no final judgement.
When each of us dies, we will be judged then.

I have studied the book of Revelations, and find it to be a work of early Christians giving each other hope to outlast Roman persecutions.
I do not believe it to be a divinely inspired book.
YMMV.
Link Posted: 8/8/2007 6:13:06 PM EST
[#6]
One of the keys to making sense of the Bible in this area is the correct translation of the Greek word 'aion'. We get our English word 'eon' directly from this word and it should correctly be translated as 'an age' and means an indetermined period of time.

Many times it is mistranslated in the King James as world. For example, Satan is referred to as the god of this world, and yet, it also says that the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof. Satan has never been the god of this world, but he has taken dominion from Adam through deception so can be seen as the ruler or god of this current age.

Also, when the Bible speaks of the end of the world, it is really speaking of the end of a given age. When Jesus says that the blashemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, this does not mean that God will never forgive, but not in the age where Jesus was living and not in the age we now live in which came after His.

If you look at the types in the Tabernacle and the Feasts of the Lord, you can see that from the time of Moses until Christ, man experienced the Outer Court or the Passover Age. This was a time where God dealt with Israel through sacrifices and offerings and shedding of blood. Jesus came to fulfil that Age as the true Lamb of God and when He died, it was finished.

The second area of the Tabernacle was the Holy Place or Inner Court and it corelates with the second Feast and is called the Pentecostal Age. I believe that this is a two day or 2000 year age. It is the Church Age where God poured out His Spirit to teach man to be led by the Spirit and to come to maturity in God.

The next age which is soon upon us will be the Tabernacles or the Holy of Holies Age. It will be for a thousand years and is also referred to as the Kingdom or the Millenium Age.

This Age will end with the Great White Throne judgment and will see the beginning of the Lake of Fire. This is referred in scripture as the Age of Ages and will see God continuing to work with man.

There could have been many ages before what is described in the Bible and could be many more to come that are not described in the Bible. Eventually, God will be All in All and time will be no more and we will enter Eternity with God.

At least, this is how I see it now.
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 9:49:55 AM EST
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I believe that there is no end times, no final judgement.
When each of us dies, we will be judged then.

I have studied the book of Revelations, and find it to be a work of early Christians giving each other hope to outlast Roman persecutions.
I do not believe it to be a divinely inspired book.
YMMV.


The basis for the amillenialist position is the destruction of the land by Titus in A.D. 70.  The belief is that John prophesied of that destruction, not the end of the world.  Hence, the book of Revelation contains fulfilled prophecies not the events of the future.


Ah, thank you for the information.
I think I can classify myself as "amillenialist" than.
Link Posted: 8/9/2007 12:14:17 PM EST
[#8]

Quoted:
The basis for the amillenialist position is the destruction of the land by Titus in A.D. 70.  The belief is that John prophesied of that destruction, not the end of the world.  Hence, the book of Revelation contains fulfilled prophecies not the events of the future.


how do you see amillenialism differing from preterism?
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 4:37:15 AM EST
[#9]
I have always been fascinated with the extrordinary time people spend debating this stuff. Does it affect your destiny? No. Should it affect the way that you live out the Gospel? No.

And above all that, those that profess to know the time/event table of the end times, or outline 'how' events will pile up, produce a 'date' for the final judgement, or even attempt to define their eschatological time line are, IMO, degrading the richness of the Bible and marginalizing the wonder of God. To claim that you have it all figured out is the height of pompousity. God is infinite, timeless, grandiose, larger and greater than our existence. And given that. some things will only be revealed or realized when we meet Him.

I'm not convinced that we need to know or were meant to know the hour of His return.
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 5:20:21 AM EST
[#10]
Let's see...

Jesus comes back riding a white horse and wearing a robe dipped in blood and leading the army of heaven on white horses to destroy those reveling in their rebellion against God. He smites them accordingly.
Link Posted: 8/10/2007 6:41:01 AM EST
[#11]

Quoted:
Let's see...

Jesus comes back riding a white horse and wearing a robe dipped in blood and leading the army of heaven on white horses to destroy those reveling in their rebellion against God. He smites them accordingly.


don't forget the sword coming out of his mouth

Link Posted: 8/10/2007 8:58:00 AM EST
[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's see...

Jesus comes back riding a white horse and wearing a robe dipped in blood and leading the army of heaven on white horses to destroy those reveling in their rebellion against God. He smites them accordingly.


don't forget the sword coming out of his mouth


Right on Dino dude! The sword coming out of his mouth is the Word of God: the truth. The truth is a sword, and Jesus speaks it as he did when he was here on earth. The Word of God is an offensive weapon and when it comes to people of earth who refuse to believe the Word of God, they be struck down by it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2007 6:25:17 PM EST
[#13]
First, let me say, I would never attempt to predict the hour of Christ's return.  There is a vast amount of research on all sides.  There are three prevailing eschatological views.  I think it's interesting to discuss the belief systems of others and see how our personal findings differ.  

I noted when I talked with my amillenialist friend that he researched and quoted Scriptures I hadn't considered.  The Bible is so vast  You can spend your whole life studying and, I believe, never hit the tip of the iceberg as to the information it contains.

Someone else mentioned to accept amillenialism discredits the "budding of the fig tree" or the date Israel became a nation.  Again, it's something that hadn't entered my mind when this man was talking to me.  

So, if the amillenialist is correct, what significance scripturally does Israel becoming a nation have?  There would not be any significance scripturally, just political and historical significance.

That's interesting.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 6:19:09 PM EST
[#14]
I, too, have moderated my views on the topic.  This was once a hill I would die on.  Now I'm not even sure what I believe.  One gentleman I know is an amillenialist.  He actually describes himself as a "PRO" millenialist.  "If it comes, I'm all for it."
Link Posted: 8/17/2007 10:06:40 AM EST
[#15]
Well, Im a classic dispensationalist. Yes, I know, we aren't popular, but being popular doesn't matter to me. Although I am a dispensationalist, I am not in the prophecy camp because it doesn't matter what happens in current events, Christ will come to take his bride when God the Father is ready for Him to. But after the rapture does occur, Scripture is very clear on what will follow. That being said I do believe the next great event in human history is the rapture of the church. When that happens is none of my business. After the rapture ofcourse is the 7 years of tribulation (horrific judgement on all of mankind, but especially Israel for its disobedience), then the physical return of Christ to destroy the armies of the world who are threatening a repentant Israel, and the 1000 year physical reign of Christ. As a classic dispensationalist, my system of plain interpretation leads me to this conclusion.

Your views on eschatology are determined by your hermeneutic (science of interpretation). I will not try to convince a confirmed covenant theologian or progressive dispensationalist to become a classic dispensationalist. What I will do is ask him how he interprets Scripture to arrive at his conclusions. If you stick to a plain interpretation (this term really needs some explanation), taking all prophetical statements into account, it is my conviction you would become a dispensationalist. Wouldn't be one if I didn't believe that. Covenant theologians do not, and cannot interpret Scritpure the same way consistently. There system does not allow it. A Godly covenant theologian will interpret it plainly in most areas, but will spiritualize the prophetic areas.

Your eschatological position doesn't determine your salvation, or your personal walk with the Lord, but it does affect your ministry focus and worldview.
Many amillenialist are convinced that somehow America is God's gift to humanity and therefore, its Christian heritage must be preserved at all cost. While I am thankful to be an American, and thankful for the freedoms that we have, I am convinced that we are not, nor have been, a "Christian" nation and therefore, there isn't a heritage to save. We cannot expect to retain our freedoms because of our apathy toward and open rebellion against God. I enjoy listening to what a lot of pastors like James Kennedy and Gary DeMar have to preach and teach, but it drives me up the wall when they say that one of their goals is "to restore American civilization." There is no mention of American civilization in Biblical prophecy. DeMar's dream of America being a "city on a hill" is a gross misinterpretation of Scripture. Demars website states that their vision is:

An America that recognizes the sovereignty of God over all of life and where Christians apply a Biblical worldview to every facet of society. This future America will be a “city on a hill” drawing all nations to the Lord Jesus Christ and teaching them to subdue the earth for the advancement of His Kingdom.

http://www.americanvision.org/aboutus.asp

There is only one national group that has any claim to that vision, and that is Israel. As a nation, they are in rebellion, and have been since they rejected the Messianic Kingdom when it was offered to them by Christ. He is not done with them, and will begin to renew His work with them after the church is raptured. For now the church, not America, is God's way of revealing Himself to the world. The Christian population of China is larger than the entire population of the United States. We elect corrupt, ungodly men into office,  murder the unborn at a horrifying rate, coddle the wicked, punish the innocent, and dare to call ourselves a Christian nation. Instead of focusing on preaching to the lost, they will try to save the sinking ship that is the United States. This is why men like Jerry Falwell never really lived up to their potential because they took their focus off of the eternal and put it on the temporal.

Yes, I do hold to a very pessimistic eschatology. DeMar's vision will never come to pass. You cannot legislate morality, which is what the "Christian right" would love to do. It must come from the heart. That will only happen when a person has a relationship with God, which only comes through Christ.  They (the Christian right) keep warning us that if we are not vigilant, we will lose our right to worship as we please. Well, I think their are plenty of examples in the NT that tell us we can never really lose that. Paul and Silas were able to worship in a dark and dirty jail cell after they had been beaten.

For more information on dispensational theology, read Charles Ryrie's Dispensationalism, Dwight Pentecost Things to Come, and Renald Showers There Really is a Difference. Oh, and don't forget your Bible. Its all in there.
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