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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/27/2005 12:57:07 AM EDT
What's with the upside down V on tanks, and other millitary vehicles? This thing: ^

I've seen it in photos before, but the other day I saw a ford bronco down at camp smith's guardhouse with the marking.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 1:43:49 AM EDT
This side up?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 1:46:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 1:51:45 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
I first noticed it during GW1. It was basically just a mean's of identying friendly (coalition) vehicles from targets, at least that's what I was always told. All the coalition vehicles, tanks, APC's had it. Since such a wide variety of equipment was used, it came in handy. Even some friendly forces used Russian tanks. So they needed some distinguishing characteristic. I guess it's still used for the same purpose, although after 15 years, I'm sure an enemy has learned what the marking means and could copy it if he wanted to be sneaky. Hehe.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 1:53:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 2:04:06 AM EDT by natedogg42]
I think there's more to it than that...I have seen all 4 in pictures ( > < ^ V) on different tanks. Often times there is one or two dots inside the V's .... I am searching right now.

ETA pics as I find them.

Triangle facing forward with 1 dot inside.
4 Tanks, 3 with triangle forward, 1 with ^ and a marking under it.
I give up, this one has a V on the turret and a <- on the hull.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is a rank thing...
In the Army, a tank platoon leader (2nd LT) commands 4 tanks, his own and 3 SGT's tanks. Other markings could be the Captain and First SGT (Captain will command a Company of 16 tanks + his + first SGTs tank.

I thought I remembered the Israelis using the markings aswell...ok, really just an excuse to post a pic of the crashed Merkava
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 1:56:19 AM EDT
Charging Handle is right, it's a way to identify friendlies.

Sometimes a vehicle will get something painted on for a particular operation, and it just stays on until they decide to paint over it again or repaint the vehicle. I saw a lot of vehicles running around Iraq with IFOR (or was it KFOR, I can't remember) painted on them, meaning the vehicles were in Bosnia the last time that got painted.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:11:23 AM EDT
Designates platoon within the company and company within battalion.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:15:47 AM EDT
now why didn't I think of that...
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:47:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Designates platoon within the company and company within battalion.




Yup.


I would also not be surprised (as in I'm pretty sure) that the marking is IR sensitive.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:56:50 AM EDT
Chevron itself is used as an IFF marker for coalition forces to avoid offending anyone, since no nation uses it all Nations can put it on their vehicles without feeling like they are being snubbed by having another nation's marks on their vehicles.

Units often take the chevron and than modify for self ID within the unit.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:13:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 3:15:11 AM EDT by richardh247]
Just as an aside, and FWIW, at night different color chemlites are used for the same purpose of the chevrons - to designate platoon and company, depending on the size of the operation. Most use one color per platoon per company, so a red/green combo might mean 1st plt, A Co, for instance, and the commander's track is usually displaying another, such as a yellow. Each unit does it different, and it is at the discretion of the mission commander at the needed level.

In 2/16 Inf (Mech) (Ft Riley) circa 1992, we used a clockwise rotation for painted chevrons. That is, < was Alpha, ^ was Bravo, and so on. The platoons were not assigned, but some use the dots in conjunction with the chevrons to denote the actual platoon. So ^* would mean (clockwise rotational pattern) Bravo Company, 3rd Plt.

At night, each company was issued a color consistent with radio call signs (we were green) and that was our chem lite ORP designator. Platoon leaders used one green per antenna for a total of 2, and the company commander's track was one green and one red, where red was used alone for HHC.

But, as I said, each unit does it differently, and it is all done as the acting MFIC wants it done for nightime ID.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:15:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Just as an aside, and FWIW, at night different color chemlites are used for the same purpose of the chevrons - to designate platoon and company, depending on the size of the operation. Most use one color per platoon per company, so a red/green combo might mean 1st plt, A Co, for instance, and the commander's track is usually displaying another, such as a yellow. Each unit does it different, and it is at the discretion of the mission commander at the needed level.

In 2/16 Inf (Mech) (Ft Riley) circa 1992, we used a clockwise rotation for painted chevrons. That is, < was Alpha, ^ was Bravo, and so on. The platoons were not assigned, but some use the dots in conjunction with the chevrons to denote the actual platoon. So ^* would mean (clockwise rotational pattern) Bravo Company, 3rd Plt.

At night, each company was issued a color consistent with radio call signs (we were green) and that was our chem lite ORP designator. Platoon leaders used one green per antenna for a total of 2, and the company commander's track was one green and one red, where red was used alone for HHC.

But, as I said, each unit does it differently, and it is all done as the acting MFIC wants it done for nightime ID.



Similiar type thing occurred with insignia on helmets...this began in WW2. If you look in some movies like Battle of the Bulge and Saving Private Ryan you can see it. For instance, I think the 101st used a SPADE card symbol on the side with a tic mark to one side or on top of the symbol. The placement of the tic mark denoted the BN # or HQ or whatever. I have seen some patches units had made up for the current operations and they are similiar.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:33:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rasanders22:
This side up?



Link Posted: 9/27/2005 4:40:23 AM EDT
Hey guys, I'm sure this is all meant as innocent conversation. However, you need to remember, our nation is at war and you're discussing sensitive material such as unit identification on an open-source channel. Sure, it's most certainly out there elsewhere on the 'net, but why add to the OPSEC leaks? Not all of the posts apply, but some do in particular.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:13:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OEF_VET:
Hey guys, I'm sure this is all meant as innocent conversation. However, you need to remember, our nation is at war and you're discussing sensitive material such as unit identification on an open-source channel. Sure, it's most certainly out there elsewhere on the 'net, but why add to the OPSEC leaks? Not all of the posts apply, but some do in particular.



Glad you pointed that out. Some guy posted his unit deployment itinterary the other day. When I said something the only thing he could come up with was that he wasn't stupid. I've been scouring the UCMJ and other military case law for any examples. I guarantee this wouldn't have been put up with 60 years ago.

The internet is a great thing, but honest Americans aren't the only ones that can use it.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I first noticed it during GW1. It was basically just a mean's of identying friendly (coalition) vehicles from targets, at least that's what I was always told. All the coalition vehicles, tanks, APC's had it. Since such a wide variety of equipment was used, it came in handy. Even some friendly forces used Russian tanks. So they needed some distinguishing characteristic. I guess it's still used for the same purpose, although after 15 years, I'm sure an enemy has learned what the marking means and could copy it if he wanted to be sneaky. Hehe.



This is correct. It is not a rank or specific unit identifier. Nor is it a big secret. Remember the Invasion of Normandy 61 years ago? All aircraft involved had the black and white stripes to identify them as allied aircraft participating in the invasion. This marking is similar, it is a universal mark to identify coalition forces.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:40:22 AM EDT
That may not be a unit specific SOP, but this is:


Just as an aside, and FWIW, at night different color chemlites are used for the same purpose of the chevrons - to designate platoon and company, depending on the size of the operation. Most use one color per platoon per company, so a red/green combo might mean 1st plt, A Co, for instance, and the commander's track is usually displaying another, such as a yellow. Each unit does it different, and it is at the discretion of the mission commander at the needed level.

In 2/16 Inf (Mech) (Ft Riley) circa 1992, we used a clockwise rotation for painted chevrons. That is, < was Alpha, ^ was Bravo, and so on. The platoons were not assigned, but some use the dots in conjunction with the chevrons to denote the actual platoon. So ^* would mean (clockwise rotational pattern) Bravo Company, 3rd Plt.

At night, each company was issued a color consistent with radio call signs (we were green) and that was our chem lite ORP designator. Platoon leaders used one green per antenna for a total of 2, and the company commander's track was one green and one red, where red was used alone for HHC.



It's not too far fetched to concieve of a situation where it might be beneficial to an enemy facing 2/16 Inf to know which company/companies he's facing. If he sees vehicles from the unit with the same markings, he can assume he's got one company operating in his AOR. If he sees a few vehicles with different markings, he can surmise that he's most likely got multiple elements of the unit in his AOR. Thus, he can better plan for how to engage the BN.

Simply put, giving out this info over the web isn't going to do any good. It can only be detrimental to U.S. forces. If someone outside of the military is in an all-fired hurry to find out what the markings mean, they can always head to the nearest recruiting station and raise their right hand. Otherwise, they have no need to know. By the way, that's the all-important phrase in deciding what's classified "Confidential", "Secret", or "Top Secret" - NEED TO KNOW. If you don't need to know, you don't need to know.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:50:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 6:59:19 AM EDT by ironoxbows]

Originally Posted By CbtEngr1:

Similiar type thing occurred with insignia on helmets...this began in WW2. If you look in some movies like Battle of the Bulge and Saving Private Ryan you can see it. For instance, I think the 101st used a SPADE card symbol on the side with a tic mark to one side or on top of the symbol. The placement of the tic mark denoted the BN # or HQ or whatever. I have seen some patches units had made up for the current operations and they are similiar.




The 101st used a different suit for each of it's regiments......
Only the 506th had spades on their helmets
The 502nd wore hearts, the 501st wore diamonds
and the 327th wore clubs.

AFAIK, you are correct about the tic marks
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 7:30:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OEF_VET:
That may not be a unit specific SOP, but this is:


Just as an aside, and FWIW, at night different color chemlites are used for the same purpose of the chevrons - to designate platoon and company, depending on the size of the operation. Most use one color per platoon per company, so a red/green combo might mean 1st plt, A Co, for instance, and the commander's track is usually displaying another, such as a yellow. Each unit does it different, and it is at the discretion of the mission commander at the needed level.

In 2/16 Inf (Mech) (Ft Riley) circa 1992, we used a clockwise rotation for painted chevrons. That is, < was Alpha, ^ was Bravo, and so on. The platoons were not assigned, but some use the dots in conjunction with the chevrons to denote the actual platoon. So ^* would mean (clockwise rotational pattern) Bravo Company, 3rd Plt.

At night, each company was issued a color consistent with radio call signs (we were green) and that was our chem lite ORP designator. Platoon leaders used one green per antenna for a total of 2, and the company commander's track was one green and one red, where red was used alone for HHC.



It's not too far fetched to concieve of a situation where it might be beneficial to an enemy facing 2/16 Inf to know which company/companies he's facing. If he sees vehicles from the unit with the same markings, he can assume he's got one company operating in his AOR. If he sees a few vehicles with different markings, he can surmise that he's most likely got multiple elements of the unit in his AOR. Thus, he can better plan for how to engage the BN.

Simply put, giving out this info over the web isn't going to do any good. It can only be detrimental to U.S. forces. If someone outside of the military is in an all-fired hurry to find out what the markings mean, they can always head to the nearest recruiting station and raise their right hand. Otherwise, they have no need to know. By the way, that's the all-important phrase in deciding what's classified "Confidential", "Secret", or "Top Secret" - NEED TO KNOW. If you don't need to know, you don't need to know.



I think that you are being too cautious, yes I care about OPSEC but this information could be found a thousand different places and it is simply not classified.

Did you guys know that the 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 28th Infantry Division, Pennsylvania Army National Guard, will deploy to Iraq in support of the Operation Iraqi Freedom rotations scheduled to begin in mid-2005?

Shocking isn't it. I've seen people online get chewed out for posting stuff like this. It's not a fucking secret. It is actually the sole content of DoD Press Release No. 008-05. Big DEAL.

Do you think that any future enemy of ours will be aided by knowing that tghe 2/16 INF (MECH) used a certain chevron scheme 13 years ago?
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:10:21 AM EDT
I can appreciate everyone's attention to what could possibly be considered sensitive information, folks. I assure you that the lives and sanctity of our soldiers is of the utmost importance to me, and I would never betray my prior service by discussing anything that could possible hinder an operation or place the safety of one of my brothers in jeapordy.

However, this is far from sensitive, and I'll tell you why:

First of all, these markings are well known to any nation that has one guy in 5-11 boots with a 22 rifle and a patch on his shoulder playing Army. The UN knows all about these, as they are placed and arranged in a manner specifically to allow other troops in the area to know exactly who they are dealing with, as outlined by the mission OIC.

Secondly, any civilian can find out this information by visiting a high-end hobby modeling shop where authentic markings are available through a keystroke that opens their data base. Serious model builders will have an EXACT representation of any vehicle, boat, or aircraft right down to all the designators.

Finally, all these markings are constantly changed, and I hardly doubt Delta 2/16 is using the same pattern as when I ETSd in Jan of 1993.

Again, I can appreciate the tenacity to the security of our wonderful armed forces, and while I know it wasn't EXACTLY accusing me of being a traitor because I am a blundering idiot who doesn't know when to shut my mouth concerning operational secrets... I am somewhat insulted at the attack on my intelligence and diligence to our troops.

If you were Infantry or other combat arms, you'd know the desensitive nature of questions like these. It's not like I am some uber SEAL wanna be who is relating the location of Teams 5 and 6 - and I really wonder where some of you come up with this black helicopter crap. The vehicle designators are as widely known as the CIB, and snipers don't target CIBs just because that means they are combat arms with over six months in action.

Make sense? I'm not coming down on you for coming down on me, but now armed with the facts - rather than the fiction - of the matter, you can relax about me selling secrets to the Soviets.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:05:37 PM EDT
Op-Sec is an interesting thing, to be honest about 1/3 of stuff posted by well being member of the gun community would technically fall into an "Op-Sec" violation. The reason for this is it falls under information that assists foreign assets in confirmation or denial of suspected date via secondary source. Innocuous things like how we mark command Command Vehicles, to what defensive/offensive equipment is carried on a military vehicles, to when large units are moving, most of this data is available via open source means, shouldn't be released.

What most troops who have only a cursory knowledge in Op-Sec control measures is the enemy may or may not be sure what is part of an information warfare campaign and what is true, through the collect of secondary source confirmation they can determine whether some of items that are released are in fact true or false. A good rule of thumb is if it is contained in in a no-foreign pub/TM/message than it shouldn't be released.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:42:01 PM EDT
You got that everyone? No talking about the military anymore. We don't want the enemy to figure out that we are using *censored* rifles or that we have troops in the Gulf. We especially don't want you talking about markings on vehicles from 15 years ago, on info that's found everywhere, and even was the subject of a CNN special report on friendly fire episodes.
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