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Posted: 8/23/2006 1:13:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 1:14:20 AM EDT by Boom_Stick]
For the longest time, I tested my accuracy by hitting targets like propane bottles and bowling pins from 20 to 50yds. I got pretty good at it.
Last week I finally went to the indoor range to see how good I really was. I didn't know where to start so I took my first shots at 25 feet. I was a little disapointed. I didn't group as well as I though I would, but after an hour I got it down to 5 shots within two inches. Not consistently but I was getting better.


25' isn't very far but I want to take it further. What's the distance I should be shooting for? I'm shooting a stock Beretta 92.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 1:20:49 AM EDT
25 yards with a pistol, at a 9" NRA pistol target is a good start to see what you can do with aimed fire. That's what I "benchmark" my pistols with, and keep myself sharp with slow fire pistol shooting.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 1:24:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
25 yards with a pistol, at a 9" NRA pistol target is a good start to see what you can do with aimed fire. That's what I "benchmark" my pistols with, and keep myself sharp with slow fire pistol shooting.


I do this as well. When I first get a pistol, I shoot it at 15 and 25 yards off a rest to see what it will do, but after that, I don't bother with that sort of thing. I tend toward USPSA style shooting instead of normal target shooting.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 1:34:42 AM EDT
I normally use 25 yards as the max for my accuracy shooting, I tend to more combat environment shooting with multiple targets at closer ranges.

But if you can pie plate at 25 yards, you're doing well..
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 2:01:48 AM EDT
Most Self defense Handgun engagements happend inside 21 feet (7 Yards).
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 2:52:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 2:55:32 AM EDT by Dave_A]
25 yards bulls-eye for 'precise' aimed fire

If you can hit at that range, you can hit in close too...


'Defensive' or 'point' shooting is better practiced at shorter ranges, of course...
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:02:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:11:29 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
25' isn't very far but I want to take it further. What's the distance I should be shooting for? I'm shooting a stock Beretta 92.


Start out with 8" dots at 5-7 yards. Practice firing two shots from the draw, center mass on one of the dots. Your focus should not be on speed, but on getting a good firing grip, making a good smooth draw, properly aligning the sights, and properly controlling the trigger.

Then practice two shots on two dots at the same distance.

Then practice two shots on three dots.

Then move back to 10 yards. Repeat.

Then 15 yards. Repeat.

Then move back to 10 yards and use 3" dots this time. Repeat.

Then move back to 15 yards. Repeat.

Put up 8" dots again, and practice the same routine, but moving backwards and forwards the whole time.

Again with 3" dots.

Put up the 8 inch dots, and practice while moving from side to side.

Again with 3" dots.

Then put up a standard sized shilouette target. Practice COM shot combinations (all from the draw) and then practice high center mass shots (head shots). Then put up a new target and practice doing all of this on the move.

Then put up a new shilouette target and practice two shots to COM and two to the head of the target from 7 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards, 25 yards, and then on the move.

Then practice shooting from different positions, including crouching, kneeling, leaning as if you were leaning around a barricade, and prone. Practice getting into and out of these positions as quickly as possible while putting ACCURATE rounds on target.

Practice shooting with your weak hand.

Practice a draw and putting 2 shots on target as fast as you possibly can, shots with reloads between them as fast as you can, all without sacrificing any accuracy.

Shoot 8" targets at 25 yards, including multiple dot drills, draw and fire, etc. Your times are naturally going to be a bit slower because of the decreased size of the target. ETA -- A shot timer like a PACT timer is an invaluable training aid. Buy one.

Also try to practice at ranges like 50 and 100 yards if you can. This should be a much lower priority than the training mentioned above because you are not likely to need to use your pistol at those ranges.

Also practice transitions to your backup gun (you *do* carry a backup, don't you???) and practice most of the same drills with your backup gun.

Misses do not count. Period. When I say put two shots on target, I mean it. Put two bullets where you need them and do not stop shooting until you do.

Do not cheat by cocking your hammer. Do not cheat by using racegun equipment. Use the mode of carry you will use when you are carrying the pistol for self defense. Dress the same.

Training with a handgun is the same as weight training. Emphasize form and proper fundamentals like sight alignment and trigger control. It is also important to push yourself for a portion of your training or you will never improve your skills.

NRA Bullseye type shooting is not adequate training for using a handgun for self defense.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:03:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
'Defensive' or 'point' shooting is better practiced at shorter ranges, of course...


Practical pistol shooting (or defensive shooting) is not as precise as bullseye shooting, but it IS aimed fire. It is not point shooting.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:14:15 AM EDT
For bullseye pistol the maximum distance is 50 yards and the "X" ring is 1.5" across(approx.), the black extends to the "8" ring which is about 4.5" or so. Indoor is normally shot at 50 feet. Most 92's can hold about 4" at 25 yds from the factory with white box ammo.

Firing a precise shot is harder than just wacking an object any old place with a bullet as you noticed. It is also quite a bit of fun. If you can consistantly hit a soda can sized object with a centerfire handgun at 25 yds you are doing ok.

Accuracy for the average arfcommer would be close enough to set the target on fire with muzzle blast and hitting 2 of 5 times. The fact you actually fired a gun puts you ahead of most of these guys.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:26:17 AM EDT
I usually use 10 yards for precise aim and fire practice on a bullseye and 7 yards for rapid fire drills with sillohuette targets.
Frequently I'll extend the range for aim and fire drills to 15 yards and occasionally, 25 yards.
On Sunday I dropped the distance down to 5 yards for rapid fire drills with my new Beretta Tomcat. Firing as fast as I can I was able to keep eight shot mag dumps (in two or three seconds) in a six inch circle with that little pistol.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:36:09 AM EDT
If you want to build your ability to fire an AIMED shot, then you must always push your limits. Lets face it, 2" at 25 feet is pretty unsatisfying, no offense intended. Begin pushing the target out to 50 feet and strive for consistent 2" groups there. When you achieve that, next step is 75 feet. The 92 isn't known for premium accuracy but I've seen them solidly group under 3 inches at 25 yds with decent reloads.

The key is that if at any time you feel fully comfortable at a distance, push it out, or tighten your desired accuracy.

For those that state that most SD shootings occur at less than 7 yds? so what? The poster wants to know about ACCURACY. This next is sure to PO some people but here it is anyway. In my experience, those who most loudly proclaim that they only practice at REALISTIC distances (i.e. 3-4 yards), are usually those that simply can't deliver an accurate shot at longer distances. There, I said it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:41:49 AM EDT
J_W777 has given an excellent reply.

I would just like to point out that shooting cans and bowling pins, and the like, is fun, but it tells you almost nothing about how well you are shooting a firearm.

Paper doesn't lie. It tells you exactly what you are doing.

Shooting bottles is "fun", but it isn't "practice".
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:47:35 AM EDT


15 yds is my "magic distance"

If I can hit at 15, I can hit at 25. Anything closer is cheating.



Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:50:04 AM EDT
If you are practicing for a self defense, then I would recommend that you not practice "target shooting."

I would recommend that you participate in an IDPA program in your area.

If you can not, then I would recommend shooting while on the move, drawing, kneeling behind cover, weak hand, etc.

I would practice these drills at 7 yards or less untill you are proficient, then move back.

Keep a log of what you do and how well you do it.

In order to get better at something, you have to have a plan, drill for it, and measure progress.

You will become what you practice.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:50:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

15 yds is my "magic distance"

If I can hit at 15, I can hit at 25. Anything closer is cheating.


No, it isn't.

I guarantee you that I could put you 5 yards away from a target and stress you to the point where you would completely miss it.

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:54:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 4:54:55 AM EDT by SevenMaryThree]
You never did mention if you were shooting service pistols, rimfire plinkers, or hunting cannons.

Your practice should reflect, ultimately, the intended use of the tool. JW_777 post is excellent advice for defensive sidearms. Not so much for a .44 RM deer revolver or your squirrel pistol.

I respectfully disagree with the practical master, OP. "Stump Shooting", or random plinking is highly beneficial across the spectrum of handgun disciplines. It represents the application of the tool at unknown distances over varying terrain at targets of varying size and color in a non-firing range environment. Bow hunters have known this for years, using Judo Points and the like made specific for the purpose.

Good thread.

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:56:11 AM EDT
I didn't get the memo where the OP asked about shooting anything for defensive purposes...maybe he just wants to have fun shooting his pistol and seeing what kind of accuracy he can get out of it. Sounds like a good, fun challenge to me.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:57:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

15 yds is my "magic distance"

If I can hit at 15, I can hit at 25. Anything closer is cheating.


No, it isn't.

I guarantee you that I could put you 5 yards away from a target and stress you to the point where you would completely miss it.



You make broad assumptions without even knowing me.

I focus when I get pissed. Being stressed pisses me off. Go away,

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 4:59:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
25' isn't very far but I want to take it further. What's the distance I should be shooting for? I'm shooting a stock Beretta 92.


Start out with 8" dots at 5-7 yards. Practice firing two shots from the draw, center mass on one of the dots. Your focus should not be on speed, but on getting a good firing grip, making a good smooth draw, properly aligning the sights, and properly controlling the trigger.

<SNIP>



Fantastic post.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:04:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:
You make broad assumptions without even knowing me.


I make assumptions based on the fact that I have seen armed professionals miss targets entirely during training despite having been in actual combat on numerous occasions.

Hits are not automatic at 5 yards. Not for ANYBODY.

I say again: I guarantee I can make you miss at 5 yards, even with 8" dot targets.



I focus when I get pissed. Being stressed pisses me off. Go away,


Go do some high level pistol training.

You would be amazed at how much you learn.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:07:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skin290:
I didn't get the memo where the OP asked about shooting anything for defensive purposes...maybe he just wants to have fun shooting his pistol and seeing what kind of accuracy he can get out of it. Sounds like a good, fun challenge to me.


If you practice the regimen I suggested, you will improve ALL aspects of your pistol shooting. It just so happens that you will also be building skills that could save your bacon in a gunfight too.

Nobody who does the regimen I reccomended will find themselves unable to shoot bullseyes or plink after doing it. They will find that they are able to line up the sights and control the trigger better than they ever could, and they are able to do so with less effort than before.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:08:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:08:44 AM EDT by mcgrubbs]
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:11:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
For the longest time, I tested my accuracy by hitting targets like propane bottles and bowling pins from 20 to 50yds. I got pretty good at it.
Last week I finally went to the indoor range to see how good I really was. I didn't know where to start so I took my first shots at 25 feet. I was a little disapointed. I didn't group as well as I though I would, but after an hour I got it down to 5 shots within two inches. Not consistently but I was getting better.


25' isn't very far but I want to take it further. What's the distance I should be shooting for? I'm shooting a stock Beretta 92.


Accuracy or bulls eye shooting is different from defensive shooting . Which is it
that you're looking to improve ?

Traditional outdoor bulls eye is 25 and 50 yards , but they do make reduced
size targets for indoor ranges of 25 and 50 feet . The smaller indoor targets are
supposed to give you the same sight picture , but I find it's easier to do well
indoors then it is outdoor at full range .
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:14:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:17:47 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
I respectfully disagree with the practical master, OP. "Stump Shooting", or random plinking is highly beneficial across the spectrum of handgun disciplines.


Any shooting that builds skill is helpful, but plinking is limited in its ability to make you better able to use a firearm in the most dire of circumstances, namely defending your life.

I am a big fan of plinking...but with firearms improper practice can actually make bad habits worse.

Done properly plinking might build a little skill.


I spend many happy hours with my Ruger MKII doing things like shooting the heads off of wildflowers at long distances, or trying to shoot the stalks out from under the caps of mushrooms. It is fun, and it does re-enforce the basics of marksmanship.

But I also spend vastly more time doing practical drills like the type I listed because for me firearms are first and foremost defensive weapons.

The hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars I have invested in practical weapons training has made me an immesurably better overall shooter, but the most important skills I aquired are those that can help me survive a fight.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:16:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:18:27 AM EDT by Specop_007]
I used to think 10-15 yards.
Then we had our last shoot.

Our range is 70 yards and we used IDPA targets (The cardboard "square man" ones). I got up and ran the course with my AR.
EVERY person after me ran with a pistol, and all did quite well on all shots except the long one. Longest shot was 70 yards. Most people would at least miss the friendlies at 70 yards, and quite a few had shots on the baddies ranging from seriously wounding to outright falling over dead.

After seeing a number of pistols perform well at 70 yards, I would think one should be accurate to at least 50. Granted, theres a huge difference between being accurate in a calm slow fire situation at longer ranges and being spot on at close range under fire life or death, but I shit you not I had no idea pistols could perform that well at longer ranges.

To give you an idea this was the course.
Click

The targets farthest back were engaged first. 2 friendlies with a terrorist in the middle.
If memory serves, we had a shooter using a Glock who had 2 headshots on the long shot, and moved on the smoke the rest of the baddies.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:20:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
The targets farthest back were engaged first. 2 friendlies with a terrorist in the middle.
If memory serves, we had a shooter using a Glock who had 2 headshots on the long shot, and moved on the smoke the rest of the baddies.


The fundamentals, properly applied, will work at 100 yards as easily as they will at 1 yard.

Part of my pistol training has always been long range shots because you never know when you might need to use your weapon at that range.

If you have a group of shooters that think they are bad ass, make them clean plate racks....then make them step back 5 yards and do it again. If a person misses a plate, then they are eliminated. See how many you have left at 50 yards.

It gets real interesting when you are doing it at 75 yards....
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:21:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
25' isn't very far but I want to take it further. What's the distance I should be shooting for? I'm shooting a stock Beretta 92.


Start out with 8" dots at 5-7 yards. Practice firing two shots from the draw, center mass on one of the dots. Your focus should not be on speed, but on getting a good firing grip, making a good smooth draw, properly aligning the sights, and properly controlling the trigger.

Then practice two shots on two dots at the same distance.

Then practice two shots on three dots.

Then move back to 10 yards. Repeat.

Then 15 yards. Repeat.

Then move back to 10 yards and use 3" dots this time. Repeat.

Then move back to 15 yards. Repeat.

Put up 8" dots again, and practice the same routine, but moving backwards and forwards the whole time.

Again with 3" dots.

Put up the 8 inch dots, and practice while moving from side to side.

Again with 3" dots.

Then put up a standard sized shilouette target. Practice COM shot combinations (all from the draw) and then practice high center mass shots (head shots). Then put up a new target and practice doing all of this on the move.

Then put up a new shilouette target and practice two shots to COM and two to the head of the target from 7 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards, 25 yards, and then on the move.

Then practice shooting from different positions, including crouching, kneeling, leaning as if you were leaning around a barricade, and prone. Practice getting into and out of these positions as quickly as possible while putting ACCURATE rounds on target.

Practice shooting with your weak hand.

Practice a draw and putting 2 shots on target as fast as you possibly can, shots with reloads between them as fast as you can, all without sacrificing any accuracy.

Shoot 8" targets at 25 yards, including multiple dot drills, draw and fire, etc. Your times are naturally going to be a bit slower because of the decreased size of the target. ETA -- A shot timer like a PACT timer is an invaluable training aid. Buy one.

Also try to practice at ranges like 50 and 100 yards if you can. This should be a much lower priority than the training mentioned above because you are not likely to need to use your pistol at those ranges.

Also practice transitions to your backup gun (you *do* carry a backup, don't you???) and practice most of the same drills with your backup gun.

Misses do not count. Period. When I say put two shots on target, I mean it. Put two bullets where you need them and do not stop shooting until you do.

Do not cheat by cocking your hammer. Do not cheat by using racegun equipment. Use the mode of carry you will use when you are carrying the pistol for self defense. Dress the same.

Training with a handgun is the same as weight training. Emphasize form and proper fundamentals like sight alignment and trigger control. It is also important to push yourself for a portion of your training or you will never improve your skills.

NRA Bullseye type shooting is not adequate training for using a handgun for self defense.


Very good post.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:24:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
The targets farthest back were engaged first. 2 friendlies with a terrorist in the middle.
If memory serves, we had a shooter using a Glock who had 2 headshots on the long shot, and moved on the smoke the rest of the baddies.


The fundamentals, properly applied, will work at 100 yards as easily as they will at 1 yard.

Part of my pistol training has always been long range shots because you never know when you might need to use your weapon at that range.

If you have a group of shooters that think they are bad ass, make them clean plate racks....then make them step back 5 yards and do it again. If a person misses a plate, then they are eliminated. See how many you have left at 50 yards.

It gets real interesting when you are doing it at 75 yards....


We have some very, very good shooters in our group.
We have some piss poor ones too, but thats another matter.

I wont tell you how I do with pistols.
Rifles? Whole different ballgame there.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:29:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:31:34 AM EDT by blackeye]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:


I say again: I guarantee I can make you miss at 5 yards, even with 8" dot targets.




I say again: You make broad assumptions without even knowing me.


People stress differently. Mr Expert. Just because someone has seen combat doesn't mean they are better at handling stress than someone who hasn't. It just means they have seen combat. Agreed.

Just because someone is an armed professional does not automatically make him a cool and calm person under stress.

Would you like to make anymore "blanket opinions" while up to the plate?



Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:42:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 5:43:35 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By blackeye:
People stress differently. Mr Expert.


Why is it that every time a subject like this comes up, somebody always says something that isn't exactly right, and when it is pointed out they get their knickers in a twist over it instead of just listening and learning?




Just because someone has seen combat doesn't mean they are better at handling stress than someone who hasn't. It just means they have seen combat. Agreed.


No, not agreed.

I am talking about people who shoot for a living. People who shoot almost 100,000 rounds a year. People who are on SWAT or in special forces, people who have extensive weapons training AND who have had to put that training to use in actual combat.

They still can be made to miss at 5 yards.

Thus practice at 5 yards is NOT "cheating". If you think it is, then it is apparent that you haven't done enough training. The attitude itself is one that demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about how things happen in a real fight, and a lack of high quality intensive training.



Just because someone is an armed professional does not automatically make him a cool and calm person under stress.

Would you like to make anymore "blanket opinions" while up to the plate?


You don't have to listen to the voice of reason if you don't want to.

Some people just will not be taught.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:46:09 AM EDT
Just like others have said, shooting nice and slow at paper 25 yards away teaches you practically nothing about defensive shooting.

Most of my practice is done within 10 yards. I practice drawing and firing 2 shots center mass as quickly as possible. I have practiced with targets that are an arm's distance away, firing from retention. At 5 yards, I can draw and mozambique a silhouette without using sights. I change what I'm doing everytime I'm at the range.

In a real defense situation, it is highly unlikely that you'll be taking shots at a bad guy 25 yds. away. It's going to happen very quickly, and very close. You won't have time to make a nice smooth draw, adjust your grip, and perfectly line up your sights before you sloooowly squeeze the trigger.

You need to be able to put two rounds in the center of a silhouette target at 10 yds without thinking. The draw and the trigger pull should be muscle memory. If you practice it enough, you won't look at your sights anymore. When I was competing in USPSA, the only time I ever used my sights was on targets beyond 20 yards or when I had to make a very precise hit. I still got center mass hits because of muscle memory that results from LOTS and LOTS of practice.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:47:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
You don't have to listen to the voice of reason if you don't want to.

Some people just will not be taught.


Ain't it the sad truth.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:49:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:50:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
You need to be able to put two rounds in the center of a silhouette target at 10 yds without thinking. The draw and the trigger pull should be muscle memory. If you practice it enough, you won't look at your sights anymore. When I was competing in USPSA, the only time I ever used my sights was on targets beyond 20 yards or when I had to make a very precise hit. I still got center mass hits because of muscle memory that results from LOTS and LOTS of practice.


I must disagree with you on the sight question.

I always see my sights when I shoot. But you are correct in that when you have enough muscle memory you don't have to spend much effort on lining up the sights. With proper form they almost seem to align themselves.

Still, I always see them very clearly when I shoot. I make sure I see my sights with every shot. And on the occasions where I fail to use my sights, I usually miss terribly.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 5:55:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
You need to be able to put two rounds in the center of a silhouette target at 10 yds without thinking. The draw and the trigger pull should be muscle memory. If you practice it enough, you won't look at your sights anymore. When I was competing in USPSA, the only time I ever used my sights was on targets beyond 20 yards or when I had to make a very precise hit. I still got center mass hits because of muscle memory that results from LOTS and LOTS of practice.


I must disagree with you on the sight question.

I always see my sights when I shoot. But you are correct in that when you have enough muscle memory you don't have to spend much effort on lining up the sights. With proper form they almost seem to align themselves.

Still, I always see them very clearly when I shoot. I make sure I see my sights with every shot. And on the occasions where I fail to use my sights, I usually miss terribly.


I might be subconsciously seeing them when I am shooting against the clock... but they don't register. As fast as I'm shooting, there is no way I can take the time to align the sights.

It feels like "point" shooting, but that's not really what it is. It's just that so many rounds have been fired, my body takes over and aligns the pistol without needing the sights.

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:03:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
You don't have to listen to the voice of reason if you don't want to.

Some people just will not be taught.


Ain't it the sad truth.


Seems to happen alot.
Its funny, you have to see what you dont know to realize what you need to know.
Then maybe someone will open their ears and shut their yap.

Grandfather told me long time ago we have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:11:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Its funny, you have to see what you dont know to realize what you need to know.


People often dramatically over-estimate their skill as a shooter, a lover, and a driver. The best thing anyone can do to improve their skill as a shooter is go train with some of the best at it. It will make you a better shooter and let you know what "good" really is.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:15:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Its funny, you have to see what you dont know to realize what you need to know.


People often dramatically over-estimate their skill as a shooter, a lover, and a driver. The best thing anyone can do to improve their skill as a shooter is go train with some of the best at it. It will make you a better shooter and let you know what "good" really is.


Oh make no mistake, I consider myself an "ok" shooter, but I realize virtually anyone can be an "ok" shooter with a little practice.
I also realize to take my shooting to the next level I have to take a step back and re-learn some of the fundamentals. I'm a good shot, but to get to the next level and be a world class shooter I have a long ways to go.
Thats my goal though, to be a world class shooter. I want to be one of the best.

Its a long road, but one I'm willing to walk with open eyes and ears.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:19:03 AM EDT
no more than 15 yards. pistols are "short" range self defence weapons.
everything else is rifle work.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:22:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
You don't have to listen to the voice of reason if you don't want to.

Some people just will not be taught.


Ain't it the sad truth.


Seems to happen alot.
Its funny, you have to see what you dont know to realize what you need to know.
Then maybe someone will open their ears and shut their yap.

Grandfather told me long time ago we have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason.



Apparently, all here are of one opinion. Any other opinion is automatically wrong or ignorant.

People deal with stress differently. Some focus, some don't. That is the point I am making. You made a general blanket statement about being able to make me miss at close distance without knowing "anything" about me, my abilities or how I like to practice. I don't agree with blanket statements, never will.

Oh and by the way, I enjoy learning new techniques and strategies. I think its refreshing to try new approaches. But my BS flag immediately goes up when someone states there is only one way or one idea that will work. Like the old saying goes, Opinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one.



Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:30:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nerves:
Most Self defense Handgun engagements happend inside 21 feet (7 Yards).


I took a practical shooting course and most of the shooting was within that, some of it as short as 10 ft. The last run was a fire and maneuver sort of course and the distances started out to 25 yards max and kept getting closer.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:32:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 6:34:50 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By blackeye:
Apparently, all here are of one opinion. Any other opinion is automatically wrong or ignorant.


No, an opinion is only wrong or ignorant if it happens to be wrong or ignorant.



People deal with stress differently. Some focus, some don't. That is the point I am making. You made a general blanket statement about being able to make me miss at close distance without knowing "anything" about me, my abilities or how I like to practice. I don't agree with blanket statements, never will.


If I can design a course of fire that will make a Navy SEAL with lots of time as a weapons instructor and lots of time awarding virgins in the middle east miss, I can make YOU miss...or do something stupid...or even violate a safety rule.

I guarantee it.

It is about remembering the fundamentals. Even experienced people can forget to perform the basic fundamentals and can fudge up, ESPECIALLY at very close range. Shooting is all about sight alignment and trigger control. All that is easy on a square range when there is no pressure.

But introduce a little of the uncertainties of life, and you would be amazed how quickly even "good" shooters lose the ability to perform basic tasks. Lots of training hours have taught me these lessons.



Oh and by the way, I enjoy learning new techniques and strategies. I think its refreshing to try new approaches. But my BS flag immediately goes up when someone states there is only one way or one idea that will work. Like the old saying goes, Opinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one.


Yes, everyone has an opinion.

Sometimes, however, an opinion is not mere conjecture but is based on having done extensive ammounts of training with some of the most experienced shooters you will ever find. THOSE opinions aren't something to dismiss lightly. Yes, there are lots of know-it-alls on ARFCOM.

But there are actually a lot of people who know what they are talking about too, and it is a valuable skill to be able to tell the difference.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:45:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:47:54 AM EDT
Any practice has to be consistant to gain anything in terms of accuracy also in speed.
I practice drawing and shooting from arms length out to 50 or so yards at a IDPA target and pepper poppers, obviously pepper poppers at at least 7 yards, cardboard inside that range.
I aim for head and COM at the ranges inside 25 yard and COM at anything past 25 yards. My goal is to get hits that can stop an attack quickly. The closer someone is to you the more dangerous they are to you, distance is your friend in most street level handgun altercations, IF you have practice and/or training and the goblin doesn't. You will be more likely to hit them and them less likely to hit you.
The above is for defensive applications of handguns and shotguns for me. Try a few things out and see what works best for you.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 6:55:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



But there are actually a lot of people who know what they are talking about too, and it is a valuable skill to be able to tell the difference.


Let me ask you a question. There are probably thousands of instructors in the US. Do they all use the same methods? If they don't, are they all wrong if they don't agree with your methods?

Don't get me wrong. I am not attacking your ability or your knowledge. I just think your pretty close minded.

Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:01:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Excuse me, I do not want to come off as an expert though I have had some limited experience, but you forgot one.

Handgun shooting isn't all about sight alignment and trigger control for if you don't get the gun out of its holster, you won't need either.

Sorry didn't meant to butt in.

Tj


Yes, getting the gun out of its holster is important.

But I find that the vast majority of people have very little trouble with that aspect of it. Believe it or not, speed getting the weapon out of the holster isn't a big deal. Getting people to draw the weapon and then make an accurate shot, however, is another matter.

At my best I can draw and put a round on target in .78 seconds. (That's the fastest I have ever done it.) I average about 1.0 seconds from my usual carry gear.

I took as much as 2.5 seonds to put a round on target when I was moving faster. I was fast, but my motion was improper and I was missing. I "slowed down" and used better form and was able to put a bullet where I needed it in much less time.

For instance: At my last carbine class when working on the pistol portion I was determined to be the fastest guy on the line. The instructor came up to me, the buzzer went off, and I drew my Sig P220 out of my tactical thigh holster and fired two rounds in 1.3 seconds. (That's extremely fast for a thigh rig...)

The trouble was that I was only supposed to put ONE round on target from the draw. I got in such a hurry I shanked the first DA shot and followed up with a hit on my second shot.

The instructor's response:

"Jeeeezus K-Rist! That was the fastest miss in the history of the world. S-L-O-W D-O-W-N and make a hit. If you had taken .5 second to actually control your trigger, you would have made the first shot in under 1.2 seconds instead of the 1.12 seconds you had for your miss. You have been through this stuff before. You know that. Stop trying to be a stud and just hit the target."

And then he moved on to the next guy.

Getting the gun out of the holster is the EASY part.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:01:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:
<Snip> Opinions are like buttholes, everybodys got one.


blackeye, you've been on this forum longer than I, but in my short time here, I've quickly learned that J_W777's "opinion" is like a 24k Gold Diamond Studded butthole that spews rubies and emeralds and all sorts of other precious gems. Not everyone has that

WWJD? is really shorthand for "What Would John_Wayne777 Do? "
Listen to his advice he means well.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:06:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2006 7:08:08 AM EDT by tripledouble]
For practical pistol shooting practice, I work on increasing speed and accuracy. I usually set the paper target about 15-30 feet away. I work on drawing the pistol out of the holster, sighting the target and firing one or two shots.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:07:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

15 yds is my "magic distance"

If I can hit at 15, I can hit at 25. Anything closer is cheating.


No, it isn't.

I guarantee you that I could put you 5 yards away from a target and stress you to the point where you would completely miss it.



You make broad assumptions without even knowing me.

I focus when I get pissed. Being stressed pisses me off. Go away,



Then you are going to be the one dying.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:08:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackeye:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



But there are actually a lot of people who know what they are talking about too, and it is a valuable skill to be able to tell the difference.


Let me ask you a question. There are probably thousands of instructors in the US. Do they all use the same methods? If they don't, are they all wrong if they don't agree with your methods?

Don't get me wrong. I am not attacking your ability or your knowledge. I just think your pretty close minded.



Most of the fundamentals will in fact be the same.
Why?
BECAUSE THEY WORK.
Link Posted: 8/23/2006 7:11:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By blackeye:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:



But there are actually a lot of people who know what they are talking about too, and it is a valuable skill to be able to tell the difference.


Let me ask you a question. There are probably thousands of instructors in the US. Do they all use the same methods? If they don't, are they all wrong if they don't agree with your methods?

Don't get me wrong. I am not attacking your ability or your knowledge. I just think your pretty close minded.



Most of the fundamentals will in fact be the same.
Why?
BECAUSE THEY WORK.


Of course, the fundamentals will be the same. Thats why they call them fundamentals.
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