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Posted: 5/5/2004 8:57:18 PM EDT
[#1]
That would be hard to say ,assuming all the pieces stay within view probably be ass over tea kettle.
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:03:07 PM EDT
[#2]
I can see where this is going, and I want video, dammit!
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:09:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Hopefully they'll go down.
'Fly off their feet'? You've been watching too much TV / Movies. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:12:53 PM EDT
[#4]
This was a discussion at work tonight, and I stood back and watched as people were talking. I was actually waiting for movie references, but no body was that openly stupid. Bill H. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:20:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Approximately a 12 Gauge hole in the front of the body armor and I would guess about a 4"- 6" hole in the back, person would be dead before they hit the ground.
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:26:48 PM EDT
[#6]
well according to kill bill 2 (lots of blank lines to make it easier to skip over this post without reading anything about the movie)
. . . . . . . . . both barrels of a side by side at the same time with rock salt at about 3 feet range will throw an anorexic white chick about 20 feet |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:28:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Depends on the level of body armor and if there was a plate or not. If there was sufficient armor to defeat the round, then I see an ordinary person at least stepping back, possibly falling, depending on how balanced and ready they were for impact. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:29:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Slug will be captured by the back second panel in the vest, after having passed thru (and mushrooming nicely) the body and first layer of the vest.
The body will not be "thrown" back, and would probably go rather limp. 
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:30:16 PM EDT
[#9]
At the muzzle:
12 ga 1 oz slug: 1560 fps 2364 ft. lbs 7.62 Nato 174gr FMJ: 2800 fps 2612 ft. lbs Referencing the "Deadly Weapons" video where a 7.62 Nato hit at 3 feet on a level III clad person doesn't even knock him off balance while he is standing on one foot, I don't think very much will happen from the 12 ga slug. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:46:33 PM EDT
[#10]
What is this "Deadly Weapons" video?? |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:49:18 PM EDT
[#11]
same thing im thinking |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:50:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Death
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:53:36 PM EDT
[#13]
The Deadly Weapons video is a demo video for Second Chance vests. One of the SC guys is shot with a FAL at point-blank range while standing on one foot. The vest stopped the bullet, and the guy barely flinched. But it can't have felt all that great.
-Troy |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:54:14 PM EDT
[#14]
The video was made in 1994, but still has much valuable information.
Here is a place selling the video. Deadly Weapons What They Will & Will Not Do This tape provides those interested in the terminal effects of firearms with a unique examination of what modern firearms will and will not do. Machine guns, silencers, shotguns, pistol ammo, handguns. Learn the truth about modern firearms. Deadly Weapons compares different calibers shooting through glass, into car doors, at bulletproof vests, even into auto fuel tanks. See for yourself why the KGB, FBI, CIA and hundreds of police agencies have bought this tape. 106 mins VHS |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:54:51 PM EDT
[#15]
www.campingsurvival.com/deadweapvid.html
Good video as long as you know what you are watching and just take the stuff at face value and not really listen to what they are saying. They do some stupid things but very interesting to watch. I make all my new guys watch it. Of course with commentary from me. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 9:55:39 PM EDT
[#16]
I think the Second Chance guy is Richard Davis. The host of the video was shot twice and didn't seem phased at all. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:07:17 PM EDT
[#17]
if anyone wants to volunteer..
i'll load my winchester....you can wear a vest- any vest.. the load will be a 3in brenneke...or the new remington platinum. i'll shoot from 10 yards... any takers... cause..i'd have to see it not penetrate at 10 yards..with my own eyes.. even if it doesnt penetrate..the chest trauma..has to be wicked... if you dont cough and gag up blood...from it.. i'll be the first to hold your hand up...and declare you the "winner". hehe |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:12:13 PM EDT
[#18]
I've shot six deer with 12 ga. slugs (none wearing body armor
 ), and found their reaction to be roughly the same as being shot with a 30-06 Spfld.--the entrance wound was small (approx. 1/2"), the exit wound was larger, but not more than 1.5" max. Two just continued walking for a short distance, perhaps 20 yards, then laid down. They died shortly thereafter. The other four ran like mofos for 100+ yards, then fell and died. All were well hit. I'd imagine humans would be similar, due to size/weight similarity, save the running. I'd expect whimpering in place of running. All in all, the effect is not nearly as dramatic as I had expected.
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:17:55 PM EDT
[#19]
They will die.
Don't do it...he isn't worth it. Sgtar15 |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:37:24 PM EDT
[#20]
If they are wearing Level III or IV plates nothing will happen. The sug will splatter against the plate. You might crack a Level III plate. Nothing should happen to a real level IV plate. You might be knocked down if you were originally not balanced good. If you are solidly on your feet that wont happen either. There is no way a lead shotgun slug can penetrate a rifle strike plate. There will be no wicked chest trauma because the impact will be spread over the entire rigid 11"x9" plate. Which in turn is backed by, what, 24 or more layers of Kevlar? If you are just wearing a Level IIIA vest without plates it will penetrate and kill you. You would have to be well beyond a shotguns accurate range before it would stop one. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:41:33 PM EDT
[#21]
I hope you are joking. A slug a 10 feet I don't care what vest someone is wearing, that person is dieing. Have you ever shot anything with a slug? I don't really see any other outcome. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:43:44 PM EDT
[#22]
You apparently haven't seen a ceramic rifle strike plate in action have you? |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:44:59 PM EDT
[#23]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, That is one of the funniest things you have ever said. I love your dry, wry humor. I have an idea, get your vest and try it. Whoever you get to shoot you with the slug can let us all know about the funeral arraingments. Just kidding brother Imbroglio. don't do it! Your mad I tell you, Mad! |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:51:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Join the 21st Century sum...
www.firstdefense.com/html/Hard_Armor.htm
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:53:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Granted what you say may be true, as it makes sense. However, how often does anyome ,even a cop, wear plates? SGtar15 |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:55:31 PM EDT
[#26]
My god I know people can type anything they want on the internet but someone might jusst believe some of this. A slug a 10 yards will not give a shit what type of vest or level of trauma plate someone has on, it will just go ahead and kill you. This bullshit about the impact being spead over the plate come on. Have a volkswagon going 35 mph hit you, you will most likely die. Get hit with a one ounce slug from 10' even if a plate stopped it, which I don't believe I think your heart would explode. More than likely it would completely penetrate the front of the vest, the human body and the rear of the vest. The human would die. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 10:56:55 PM EDT
[#27]
The NIJ standard for threat level III body armor specifies protection against a 12-gauge rifled slug.
This armor, normally of a hard semi-rigid construction, protects against 7.62mm full-metal jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.7g (150gr), impacting at a velocity of 838m/s (2750ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12-gauge rifle slugs, as well as the Type I, Type IIA, Type II and Type IIIA threats. www.nlectc.org/txtfiles/BodyArmorStd/NIJSTD010103.html |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 11:01:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Well he didn't ask THAT. Its true that no concealable vest will stop it, but that is far from NO vest being able to stop a slug. And the guy in the Deadly Weapons video WAS wearing a Level III plate. And one of the old heavy ones that weighed about 14 pounds not one of the new 3 1/4 pound ones. There are also Spectra Level III vests now that are slightly flexable and weigh only ONE AND A HALF pounds. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 11:03:39 PM EDT
[#29]
I would have to see it to believe it. Right now I am more than skeptical. It does not make me feel better that they could not even spell "float" in thier web site "flaot"
It would be great if true, but as of now I do not believe. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 11:08:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Its not just that one manufacturer. Its a NIJ standard. Everyone, Point Blank, Second Chance, American Body Armor. Every Interceptor vest issued in Iraq and Afganistan comes with a set of plates that will stop a shotgun slug cold at muzzle contact. You would have to build a special projectile out of Tungstin or DU and fire it out of a rifled barrel with a sabot. Then you probably could get through at least the Level III plate. But a plain led slug is not going to penetrate a boron carbide plate. Its physically impossible. And you seem to be the last person in the world to know this. |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 11:13:24 PM EDT
[#31]
What happens? I think it would make a nasty mess
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Posted: 5/5/2004 11:14:32 PM EDT
[#32]
 Sadly, that isn't the case, or we would be done now. -Troy |
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Posted: 5/5/2004 11:17:09 PM EDT
[#33]
You seem to be right. I didn't think it was possible for anyone on this board to NOT know this. I seem to be very wrong. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 2:55:23 AM EDT
[#34]
I just can't let this opportunity pass...
I agree with my friend Imbroglio. His post is 100% correct. I've seen the video he references and it was an eye-opener. sum-rifle, you keep using comments like "I would guess" and "I think", which is fine. Everyone has a right to an opinion. But there are people that have actually done experiments about these issues. And their experimentual results are more important than our "opinions". A 12 gauge slug is not as powerful as a .308, and the .308 will not "knock a guy off his feet and throw him through the air". It just doesn't happen. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 3:23:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Too many people seem to get their gun knowledge from watching the movies…were the laws of physics seem to take a back seat.
 If a 12g was a deadly as some people suspect, why haven't the Military scrapped all their 5.56 and 7.62 rifles and issued the guys with shotguns? Andy |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 4:06:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Wow. My experience has been the total opposite. I've shot 7 deer with a 12 slug (both 2 3/4 and 3 in). All were in the chest( front or broadside) and they dropped like a ton of bricks. Most just went limp and fell over instantly...one or two walked maybe 5 feet. On the other hand...I have never had a deer shot with an 06 fall over dead...they always run 20 to 30 yards. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 4:21:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Yep. That plate is bigger than the butt of the shotgun firing the round spreading the effects of the hit over a bigger area. The butt of the shotgun didn't appreciably effect the person shooting it. There is a law that says for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore at best the reaction on a target should no more blow it off it's feet than it blew the shooter off his. Now take that plate away and assuming the body armour still managed to stop the round, I would sure hate to have all that energy concentrated in a 12 guage diameter piece of led hit me. Kind of like the difference of a tennis shoe clad foot stomping on your bare foot and a stiletto heel doing the same. Both have the same energy but one's going to hurt alot more. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 4:27:57 AM EDT
[#38]
No one can say for sure what deer will do when hit with certain calibers. Every kill is unique. You have the hunters who claim that their "aught-six" has dropped every deer they've ever shot right where it was standing even if it was hit in the stomach. There are some people who drop every deer they shoot, and some who see them all run no matter where they are hit (like me... except for the head shots). I have put a 185 grain .300 win mag ballistic tip through the heart (yes, I disected and checked) and lung of a deer only to have him run 30 yards before dying. There is just no way to guess if a deer will drop or run, regardless of the cartridge used.
As for the body armor issue, the main things to consider when discussing body armor are the velocity of the round being fired, and the bullet weight/density; i.e. a hollowpoint round is easier to stop than a full metal jacket of the same caliber. With a shotgun, you have a relatively slow moving LARGE projectile... therefore, the energy is already being spread out over a larger area. A level III vest and especially level IV should have no problem stopping a slug (as proven by tests). As for the person "flying back" when shot, I don't remember ever shooting a deer that "flew back" several feet when it was hit. Even a coyote, which is small and I'm sure doesn't brace itself for impact, doesn't fly back at all when shot... they usually just crumple straight down. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 4:47:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Can someone figure the engergy of a VW going 35 MPH (assume the VW is say 2000lbs) ?
I would think its somewhere on the order of several times more energy then a 12ga slug. Sorry I am not doing math right now 
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Posted: 5/6/2004 5:02:58 AM EDT
[#40]
I'd say it would feel like about the same as a front snapping kick to the chest. What happens depends on the individual.
Tj |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 5:23:54 AM EDT
[#41]
3 possibilities:
(1) It penetrates. Bad. According to spec, could happen with NIJ class IIA armor and slugs. (2) Soft armor stops it with no hardplate. According to spec, NIJ class IIIA armor will stop slugs. I have heard that the NIJ backface deformation requirements are not the most accurate determination of non-penetrative wounding. I wouldn't want to do this test; I think it would hurt a lot at best.  (3) Hard armor (III, IV) stops it. According to spec, class III and IV armor will stop a slug. The force is spread out over a huge area and should do little damage. In any case, the important thing to remember is that the momentum transferred to the shootee cannot be greater than the momentum transferred to the shooter. If the shootee is standing on the heel of one foot, he may very well fall down when shot. If he's braced against the impact (just like the shooter probably is), he'll probably remain standing. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 5:39:43 AM EDT
[#42]
and what do you base this OPINION on? Hollywood movies? Shooting a 12 gauge at the range? A 12 gauge slug is a large projectile, moving pretty slow. That's NOT a good combination for penetrating a vest. Small, fast moving objects penetrate vests - like a .22 LR, a 5.56mm or such. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 5:39:54 AM EDT
[#43]
I don't believe that their armor will stop the slug if they can't even get their terminology right: 1. I've never heard of a 12 gauge RIFLE, 2. It is a 12 gauge RIFLED slug/slugs. 3. The barrel of a 12 gauge is normally smoth bore. Yes, I'm aware of some deer slug barrels that are rifled. Normally however the SLUG is rifled, not the barrel. ---------------------------- The speed of a 2000 lb. VW is 51 feet per second. That's based on the old rule-of-thumb of 60 MPH = 88 feet per second. Therefore the VW would comprise 2000 lbs. X 51FPS = 102,000 foot pounds of energy. Can anyone confirm this? |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 5:55:39 AM EDT
[#44]
A level IV armor plate would apparently stop the slug, however, that much blunt force trauma to the chest cannot be a good thing...troops in Iraq are getting purple hearts for the injuries caused by AK rounds getting stopped by their chest plates.
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Posted: 5/6/2004 6:04:47 AM EDT
[#45]
I can personally attest to the fact that a 12 gauge slug only penetrates about 1/2" into a tree.
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Posted: 5/6/2004 6:11:19 AM EDT
[#46]
a bamboo tree? |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 6:12:14 AM EDT
[#47]
Regular. Prolly oak |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 6:13:23 AM EDT
[#48]
LOL, yep but that depends on the tree and distance too. Had one come back at my head once that hit a Magnolia straight on at about 50 yards. Slowed it down enough you could see it coming. That was an addrenniline rush. Tj |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 6:15:32 AM EDT
[#49]
In fact. my muzzleloader put just as big a divot in the same tree. |
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Posted: 5/6/2004 6:19:32 AM EDT
[#50]
i did some ballistic tests using cedar (probably softer than oak) at about 15 yards. definitely penetrated more than half an inch. what distance were you shooting from? 2 3/4 inch slug? |
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