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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/27/2001 6:20:04 AM EDT
I was watching a very interesting program last night on the British SAS and their raids. In 1980 when the Iranian Embassey was taken over they went in with 9mm MP5s because they were "good for close quarter combat". They also showed some other missions the SAS had been in where they shot the hell out of a truck. All this got me thinking about penetration of the bullets. When I think of Urban type warfare I think of CQC but clearly they can require two very different types of weapons. If you had to shoot through things like trucks I would want a FAL .308 so I could get the best penetration. BUT in an Urban environment you don't want to be hitting other people with stray bullets. Now I am not waiting for any SHTF scenerio to unfold but common sense tells me Urban unrest for one reason of another would be the most likely situation. Which gun would you want? I'm thinking the AR15 with collapsable stock and M4 profile for the best of both worlds.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 6:31:35 AM EDT
I also saw that program.....interesting how that one terrorist took 76 shots before he expired. I would also go with the m4, however you can get good sound supression with the mp5. However, the most likely scenerio would be in a stand off situation not a room clearing one so I think the m4 would be the best choice.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 6:34:30 AM EDT
M4 probably is the best choice anymore, but, oddly enough, pistol rounds (like from an MP5), generally have better autobody and glass penetration than the .223. Go figure. I guess weapon choice for CQB is more mission driven than anything else. I usually wind up carrying just a pistol, but most of your CQB duties do not involve actually shooting at anyone (or being ready to shoot), and may require you to free up both hands rather quickly.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 6:35:08 AM EDT
Not to get of the topic but what did you think about them wasting the terrorists even when they were surrendering or lying down?
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 6:46:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: Not to get of the topic but what did you think about them wasting the terrorists even when they were surrendering or lying down?
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I think that the terrorists wrote the rules of the game and the SAS was only playing by those rules. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ----------------- "Happiness is interlocking fields of fire." --J.D. Smith
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 7:13:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: I also saw that program.....interesting how that one terrorist took 76 shots before he expired.
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The narrator from the program mentioned something like this, "the medical examiner determined that the terrorist was shot 76 times". Okay, not the exact wording, but you get the idea that it didn't mention when he died, but how many bullets struck him.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 7:43:45 AM EDT
Best CQB armament: A 590A1 slung accross the shoulder, while carrying an H&K G36, and a H&K P7 inside a tac holster on the right leg. Bandana on head, no shirt, wearing cammi shorts and boots, bandolier of shells cris crossed on chest. Oh I forgot the amber collored Oakley shades, and the flight gloves. Hey I'm going for the Rambo look. Hoping once they see me they'd think twice. Plus its just pretend. In reality I would be cowering in a closet somewhere praying my ass off. But seriously I would go with a Glock 17 and a 590A1 that I already have.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 7:43:57 AM EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: I also saw that program.....interesting how that one terrorist took 76 shots before he expired. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The narrator from the program mentioned something like this, "the medical examiner determined that the terrorist was shot 76 times". Okay, not the exact wording, but you get the idea that it didn't mention when he died, but how many bullets struck him. I stand corrected....but man can you imagine the mess that the shooting caused?
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:03:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: Not to get of the topic but what did you think about them wasting the terrorists even when they were surrendering or lying down?
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Jarhead_22 hit the nail on the head. I especially like the SAS standard practice of each fireteam member popping rounds into fallen tangos just to ensure they stay down. Hmmm...4 man team, scout takes out tango #1 with a 3rnd burst, each operator after scout lets one burst go into tango=12 rounds. Cover your six! CS
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:14:49 AM EDT
I would go with my preban M4gery with my 590A1 being a close second. My SIG P226 with my Cold Steel dagger (Tai Pan) would be on my hip. Tyler
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:21:09 AM EDT
M4 Carbine.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:27:24 AM EDT
Something that has 'this side towards enemy' written on the front. Maybe a mortar or two once they learn that trick. M203 wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:34:02 AM EDT
USS WASP(+) 22ND MEU(SOC)(+)
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:35:58 AM EDT
Hiding out in the basement sounds good to me. Let the idiots kill each other. I'll let anyone that tries to get into that basement know what I prefer as far as close quarters firearms. The rest of ya have to guess. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:46:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major Murphy: USS WASP(+) 22ND MEU(SOC)(+)
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[Homer voice]Mmmmmmmm.....destructive goodness.[/Homer voice] ---------------------- “The mission of the Marine rifle squad is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver or to repel the enemy’s assault by fire and close combat.” --Marine Guidebook
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 9:52:50 AM EDT
To comment on the shooting tangos after they are surrendering and lying down; I didn't see the program you are talking about and I am not an expert on SAS engagement, but to support their tactics it may have been possible that intel predicted remote detonating explosives in the area or something to that effect. My choice for CQB and urban ops is my Bushmaster A-3 shorty equiped with a Trijicon ReflexII, Surefire M500A tac light, high cap mags with Winchester silver tips, one mag of green tips for penetration, Giles sling and an ACOG 4x in a pouch incase it's needed. Riding second seat would be my Glock 17 with Trijicon night sights, ITI M-3 tac light, 5 or so extra mags loaded with Pro Load 124gr. Gold Dots, in my Safariland 6004 tactical rig. Don't forget the class III ballistic vest (in case someone is a little faster).
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 12:17:56 PM EDT
When the Constitution is not in effect, it makes sense to shoot all TANGOS in an explosive entry situation simply because they can neither slow down to secure the TANGOS nor can they leave them behind them as they are unsecured. THey were there to sledgehammer the Terrs and secure the hostages. I would assume the element of surprise would be lost once they started arresting the bad guys.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 12:27:33 PM EDT
So isn't that called 'Anchoring'? Pretty confident that is SOP for EVERYBODY now a days. Who the hell would want to get popped in the back by a 'dead' bad guy!?!
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 12:37:04 PM EDT
AK47----F/A................[rocket]
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 12:41:34 PM EDT
Angry mother-in-law with 40mm rolling pin.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 12:51:59 PM EDT
My choice for CQB and urban ops is my Bushmaster A-3 shorty equiped with a Trijicon ReflexII, Surefire M500A tac light, high cap mags with Winchester silver tips, one mag of green tips for penetration, Giles sling and an ACOG 4x in a pouch incase it's needed. Riding second seat would be my Glock 17 with Trijicon night sights, ITI M-3 tac light, 5 or so extra mags loaded with Pro Load 124gr. Gold Dots, in my Safariland 6004 tactical rig. Don't forget the class III ballistic vest (in case someone is a little faster).
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Isn't that the standard loadout for Mall Ninjas? I think I saw all that on the cover of last month's Law Enforcement Weapons. Oh wait, sorry, my mistake. That loadout is missing a knife, ninjato, and combat shotgun.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 12:58:22 PM EDT
COVER ME!!! I'm changing optics!!!
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 1:59:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By futureleo: Riding second seat would be my Glock 17 with Trijicon night sights, ITI M-3 tac light, 5 or so extra mags loaded with Pro Load 124gr. Gold Dots, in my Safariland 6004 tactical rig.
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Dude, you better hope it isn't dark wherever you are. This isn't meant as a flame, but GoldDots expell the friggin' brightest, largest muzzle blast I have encountered in ANY load. Maybe you have a can on your Glock? I hope so. [:)] Coversix
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 2:14:17 PM EDT
Coversix, Do you mean Speer factory Gold Dot ammo? Or do you mean that Pro Load's loading of 9mm ammo using the Gold Dot projectile? But that shouldn't matter anyway, right? There's a super flashlight mounted for those dark encounters (in case it's needed). Actually, for those tactical situations, I carry a number of extra items. Besides my 10 million candlepower hip mounted light (in case it's needed for those really really dark nights), I also carry a magazine each of whatever ammo I expect my enemy to be using. In case I run out of ammo, I carry extra ammo to be used in enemy weapons. An extra AK mag here, an extra 1911 .45 ammo there.... You know, for tactical situations.
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 2:14:23 PM EDT
Why not a Krinkov? or AKS-74u? the 7.62x39mm will penetrate glass and light cover better than the 5.56x45mm. also reducing the powder charge (remember the plastic core training rounds?) would help reduce felt recoil. adding a silencer to the Krinkov will also reduce felt recoil and muzzle climb. The Soviet M43 cartridge is better at this sort of thing as it is distance challenged to begin with. it will deliver more energy into target than a short barrelled 5.56mm which has a tougher time fragmentating due to less velocity (unless you use a non-standard load [:)]) Dont forget a Kobra red dot sight or an upper reciever from an M-90. too bad somebody does'nt sell a reproduction of the M-90 upper reciever with its rear peep-sight. i'd buy it immediately. Red lib [^]
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 3:18:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 4:03:02 PM EDT
If inside a structure probably my M & P Ithaca 37 shotgun with #4 Buck. Some of us used the preceeding in the Mekong. One SEAL had a pistol grip stock. But I do notice that the MP5 is very useful for close in combat when used in "Florida".
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 5:20:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By libertarian: Why not a Krinkov? or AKS-74u? the 7.62x39mm will penetrate glass and light cover better than the 5.56x45mm. also reducing the powder charge (remember the plastic core training rounds?) would help reduce felt recoil. adding a silencer to the Krinkov will also reduce felt recoil and muzzle climb. The Soviet M43 cartridge is better at this sort of thing as it is distance challenged to begin with. it will deliver more energy into target than a short barrelled 5.56mm which has a tougher time fragmentating due to less velocity (unless you use a non-standard load [:)]) Dont forget a Kobra red dot sight or an upper reciever from an M-90. too bad somebody does'nt sell a reproduction of the M-90 upper reciever with its rear peep-sight. i'd buy it immediately. Red lib [^]
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DUH....Did somebody say AK47 in FULL AUTO..........duh i dunno???????......[thinking]........[spank]..........[grenade]
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 6:20:22 PM EDT
I think the M4 is a good choice, but I also would consider my Vector Uzi for CQB. Nice b/c its very reliable & can be suppressed easily. Its also rather accurate for the expected CQB range. But, if you need that little extra punch for longer shots, the M4 is nice [:)]
Link Posted: 7/27/2001 6:58:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: I also saw that program.....interesting how that one terrorist took 76 shots before he expired. I would also go with the m4, however you can get good sound supression with the mp5. However, the most likely scenerio would be in a stand off situation not a room clearing one so I think the m4 would be the best choice.
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I too saw the same show. Just because he was hit 76 times, that doesn't mean he lived until then. When SAS hits something they generally shoot the corpse a few times for good measure. In that instance, the terrorist was shot and fled, but when finally cornered was shot until long after dead. They don't have time to screw around and check a pulse so they just spend an entire mag into you. Sometimes with help. MP5 is an excellent Urban/CQB gun.
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