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Posted: 11/24/2014 11:38:21 PM EDT
Just left the range sighting in my first AR, one of the Colt M4 Socom rifles from the recent $899 deal posted here

I think my eyes are the weakest link, not to mention the fact that most of my experience is with the AK and SIG series, rather than the AR

Anyway, I managed to get about a baseball-sized grouping at 50 yards, standard bench/bag rest, MaTech rear sight, Federal 193 5.56mm

Does that totally suck? Should I be satisfied with this type of group at that range? Aimpoint PRO will soon be going on the rifle, so I'm not too terribly concerned about laser-beam precision with the irons, but I'd still like to use them to their max potential

Thanks for any advice you can give this newbie
Link Posted: 11/24/2014 11:40:12 PM EDT
If you have older eyes like mine, less than six inches would be ok.
Link Posted: 11/24/2014 11:40:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2014 11:40:48 PM EDT by CRsmoker250]
3" groups at 50 yds, iron sight with battle grade ammo and a typical battle trigger....that's about right
Link Posted: 11/24/2014 11:45:07 PM EDT
Gd standard = Wings off a fly off hand while getting road head in a ferrari from a vickys model.
Link Posted: 11/24/2014 11:53:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
Gd standard = Wings off a fly off hand while getting road head in a ferrari from a vickys model.
View Quote



This is about the answer I expected
Link Posted: 11/24/2014 11:59:10 PM EDT
More than the size of a quarter = U suck!
Link Posted: 11/24/2014 11:59:43 PM EDT
minute of commie is good to go

between the nipples and neck = done
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:00:12 AM EDT
I have astigmatism but my glasses take care of that.

I average about 3 MOA (1.5in at 50y) from close to the ground positions or with the fore end rested on my range bag or something.

I open up to 4 MOA or so standing.

This is with a sling and irons.

The rifles are sub-MOA themselves. I am pretty good but not MOA good :(
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:03:32 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
Gd standard = Wings off a fly off hand while getting road head in a ferrari from a vickys model.
View Quote


Well, yeah.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:03:55 AM EDT
A 4 MOA group translates to 20 inches at 500 yards. The average sized man is about 21" across at the shoulders. So, if you can shoot a 4 MOA group, you can hit a man sized target out to 500 yds. 4 MOA at 50 yds is 2". Sounds like your group was bigger than 2".

Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:07:56 AM EDT
Baseball with 30 rounds fired in 60 to 90 seconds or 5 shots in 3 minutes?

Former is just fine. Latter indicates decaf.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:09:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Baseball with 30 rounds fired in 60 to 90 seconds or 5 shots in 3 minutes?

Former is just fine. Latter indicates decaf.
View Quote


You can't miss fast enough.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:09:10 AM EDT
sounds about right. I did better with some KNS posts.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:09:25 AM EDT
.87 MOA
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:11:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2014 12:12:31 AM EDT by Southernman077]
I can get a one hole one shot group at 50 yards with my PTAC upper and carbon 15 lower standing unsupported with WOLF.
































ETA: I seem to look at my rifles more than shoot them lately. I suck.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:13:19 AM EDT
I've always heard/understood the 'standard' accuracy expectation for mil-spec is 4MOA. So 2" at 50yd is A-OK.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:14:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2014 12:16:40 AM EDT by mixnmatch24]
Nope, it doesn't suck, but here's an alternative for you:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/556355_Improved_25M_AR15A2___A3___A4_and_AR15_Carbine_Zero_Targets____Calibrated_for_50_200M__100M__300M.html

Iron sights are not precision sights. Sight in at 25m by using a target like the one above. After you're sighted in, move it to 50 (if you want a 50/200 zero) and confirm your zero.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:14:57 AM EDT
I've gotten sub MOA out of a match AR but that's a different case. I was using match ammo (handloads)

With a basic piece and USGI ammo you seem to be in the ball park.

Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:17:33 AM EDT
I feel much better after reading this as my first iron sight session in a LONG TIME this was just this past weekend!
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:32:09 AM EDT
Minute of coffee cup saucer for me.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:39:43 AM EDT
Benchrest? 0.5 - 1".
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:45:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:57:30 AM EDT
i'm suddenly less insecure than i was before this thread.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:32:48 AM EDT
Thanks guys. Now lets all watch Ferguson burn
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:34:37 AM EDT
I buy optics, because my old eyes suck now,
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:41:44 AM EDT
Closer to center the better. Now shoot off hand like one would in a SHTF scenario. I can do COM with 20 out to 200 standing. A very loose COM but COM all the same.

The real answer would be, what's your expectation ?
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:45:26 AM EDT
OP you can do better than that from a bench. Use a bullseye target. Get the same sight picture each time. Take a breath, let it half out. Concentrate on the trigger squeeze. Keep practicing.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:55:02 AM EDT
Projectile yaw and corkscrew may not have left the bullet at 50. I've had some that weren't tight for crap at 50 but tightened up better than I can shoot at 150.

Try different weight ammo and some different ranges.

Link Posted: 11/25/2014 9:29:14 AM EDT
1 out of 5 dead square in the bullseye.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 9:51:56 AM EDT
It doesn't really matter, just say the holes you don't like are flyers and that its a sub moa group
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 9:57:44 AM EDT
Sounds just fine. As long as you are still getting solid hits as you push the distance further out, its all good.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 10:03:20 AM EDT
That's about right for a typical AR, including the rack-grade AR15A2 I bought eight years ago.

The barrel will break in after a few hundred rounds and your groups will tighten up a bit.

I replaced my shit-spec trigger with a RRA 2-stage trigger and replaced the front sight post and rear aperture with DCM versions. Using my own reloaded match ammo, my rack-grade rifle will shoot 1.5 MOA at 200 yards (3 inches).

I have another with the same modifications but also with a full float handguard, and that one shoots 1.0 MOA, even with its rack-grade barrel.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 10:12:09 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CRsmoker250:
3" groups at 50 yds, iron sight with battle grade ammo and a typical battle trigger....that's about right
View Quote

I was doing this with a 7.5" barrel sunday, but Match Ammo
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 10:16:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2014 10:18:31 AM EDT by JPL]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Flyboy77:
OP you can do better than that from a bench. Use a bullseye target. Get the same sight picture each time. Take a breath, let it half out. Concentrate on the trigger squeeze. Keep practicing.
View Quote


You can't be consistent trying to let just half a breath out each time. You will never be at the same "half breath" every time.

Concentrate on the front sight. Clear front sight, fuzzy target.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 10:28:20 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CRsmoker250:
3" groups at 50 yds, iron sight with battle grade ammo and a typical battle trigger....that's about right
View Quote


Yep. 6" at 100.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 10:30:09 AM EDT
An inch
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 11:20:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2014 11:21:22 AM EDT by wildearp]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
Gd standard = Wings off a fly off hand while getting road head in a ferrari from a vickys model.
View Quote



Amateur. Balls off a gnat while pumping Vickys model's Mom in the ass with a beer in the other hand. (With cowboy boots on)


I will add that if you can shoot your pistol tighter at 50 than your rifle, you should practice a lot more, and not from a fucking bench rest like 99% of the shooters I see at the range.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 11:37:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2014 11:44:07 AM EDT by mousehunter]
I was shooting about 2" with my Marlin lever action Sunday - with irons. Aperture sights are remarkable accurate. Good Apatures can easily get you under 1/2" at 50 yards (abet that is good apertures and shooting a laser - we did the tests at 10 yards, and the groups were about 1/32"-1/16" - with target sights and essentially a laser). The shooting is up to you and the gun, the (good) apertures can do their part and be pretty much every bit as accurate as optics. I would expect 3" or better.

Battlefield apertures are not target grade - but honestly keeping a gun on 8" at a hundred is something you should be able to do with practice, w/o support. Hell when I practiced I could do that 5 out of 7 with a pistol. With a lever action and a tang sight (ok, better than battlefield apertures again), it was boringly easy. A friend let me shoot his rolling block (with s better aperture and loads worked up for competition, and it was right at 1" at 100 off of bags - but he could probably have shot it much better than me).
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 11:39:57 AM EDT
Lots of variables involved. Your eyesight, the ammo, the rifle which may or may not like said ammo, lighting conditions, wind, etc, etc, etc. Baseball size is not out of line. With practice you could probably shrink that a bit. I wouldn't get concerned just yet.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 11:48:26 AM EDT
Use a 25 meter target that adjusts for a 50 meter zero. This should tighten up your zero.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:03:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:11:21 PM EDT
How should the rifle group or how should the shooter group?
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:27:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wildearp:



Amateur. Balls off a gnat while pumping Vickys model's Mom in the ass with a beer in the other hand. (With cowboy boots on)


I will add that if you can shoot your pistol tighter at 50 than your rifle, you should practice a lot more, and not from a fucking bench rest like 99% of the shooters I see at the range.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
Gd standard = Wings off a fly off hand while getting road head in a ferrari from a vickys model.



Amateur. Balls off a gnat while pumping Vickys model's Mom in the ass with a beer in the other hand. (With cowboy boots on)


I will add that if you can shoot your pistol tighter at 50 than your rifle, you should practice a lot more, and not from a fucking bench rest like 99% of the shooters I see at the range.



Rookie. Balls off a gnat while pumping Vickys model AND HER Mom in the ass with a beer in the other hand. (With cowboy boots on)
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 12:50:01 PM EDT
What ammo?
You may have better luck zeroing with .223 ammo as it tends to be more accurate than mil-spec.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:04:20 PM EDT
With iron sights and ball ammo, you should be able to put all your shots into a paper plate at 50 yds from the standing or offhand position. When you've mastered that, move it out to 100 yds and shoot from kneeling or prone. Get off the bench, and shoot. Congrats on your new AR.
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:06:00 PM EDT
Just think, people shoot bow and arrows at 50 yards better than you can with your AR15.

Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:15:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GTHKTX:
Just left the range sighting in my first AR, one of the Colt M4 Socom rifles from the recent $899 deal posted here

I think my eyes are the weakest link, not to mention the fact that most of my experience is with the AK and SIG series, rather than the AR

Anyway, I managed to get about a baseball-sized grouping at 50 yards, standard bench/bag rest, MaTech rear sight, Federal 193 5.56mm

Does that totally suck? Should I be satisfied with this type of group at that range? Aimpoint PRO will soon be going on the rifle, so I'm not too terribly concerned about laser-beam precision with the irons, but I'd still like to use them to their max potential

Thanks for any advice you can give this newbie
View Quote


for an AR and rack grade ammo and rifle? from the bench? you should be able to shoot 2 inches. go to appleseed. what was the shape of your group?
Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:23:33 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VBC:
Just think, people shoot bow and arrows at 50 yards better than you can with your AR15.

View Quote


Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:37:06 PM EDT
From the bench on a good day with my 20" A2, about 1".

Standing however would be minute of barn door.

Link Posted: 11/25/2014 1:38:36 PM EDT
.

My standard getting it done group at 50 yards is abour 4"-6". but that means it is hammer time. As in 5 as fast a possible. unsupported slow is about the same as yours maybe smaller on a good day. supported or prone slow tho, I like to shoot into a half dollar sized group.

Link Posted: 11/25/2014 2:58:13 PM EDT
A few years ago I shot 10 shot groups with 3 or 4 different brands of 223 including Federal (all 55gr). All the groups were about 3" (off a bench with a sandbag rest at 100yards).

With my reloads (69gn Sierra), I have shot sub MOA groups under the same conditions. For reference, my scores during service rifle competitions increased form the 440 out of 500 range to 470 out of 500. Just by changing to reloads.

The rifle is a Rock River NM lower and a White Oaks upper with iron sights.
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