What ever happened to this 80s 9mm ammo?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What ever happened to this 80s 9mm ammo?

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:42:34 AM EDT

Ok, I shot some of this out of a Beretta owned by a friend of my dad's who was going to gunsmith school in the late 1980s.

It was 9mm, pretty hot loaded ammo. Not domestic.

The projectile was a pretty hard copper colored alloy and pretty light –– the weight of a 380 slug. It was machined with a gigantic cavity, but had a plastic "plug" that gave the complete round the exact profile of an FMJ for perfect feeding. There was a little hole in the back of the slug, and the plug had a long tail (the plug itself looked like an umbrella from the side) such that gasses during firing popped the plastic tip out of the round during firing, but then it sort of flipped out of the way and didn't screw with the bullet. When we shot them they would leave these little plastic plugs about 15 to 20 feet in front of the gun on the ground.

The rounds were wicked devastating. More explosive reaction shooting watermellons and full plastic gallon milk jugs of water than shooting 125 grain +p 357 rounds. Recovered bullets had a wicked level of expansion –– and razor sharp edges, but stayed intact.

The guy I went shooting with swore by them and shot through jeans and a leather jacket into gelatin and still got like 12 inches of penetration.

He claimed they were the darlings of special forces. Anyway, I left to go to college and quit shooting for a while, and then never heard of these things again.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:43:59 AM EDT

[#1]

I think so, PMC rounds? I remember the ads.

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:44:00 AM EDT

[#2]

Accelerators?

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:44:05 AM EDT

[#3]

I believe that would be Glaser Safety Slugs or one of the earlier variants.

...Or maybe the "PMC Ultramag"...it had a plastic base, and the bullet, after firing, was like a flying doughnut.

ETA:

PMC Ultramag "Cookie Cutter Bullets"

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:44:42 AM EDT

[#4]

Glaser?

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:46:28 AM EDT

[#5]

I had BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) 9mm rounds like that in the '80s. They were over a buck a round then!

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:46:31 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I believe that would be Glaser Safety Slugs or one of the earlier variants.

No, def. not one of the Glasser things. These were not safety slugs or frangible under any stretch of the imagination. The base (back half) of the slug was almost solid metal, only the nose was machined for the plug. They penetrated very well and did not fragment.

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:47:22 AM EDT

[#7]

Geco Action Safety Rounds

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:47:43 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I had BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) 9mm rounds like that in the '80s. They were over a buck a round then!

YES! I just googled that and those are exactly what I'm talking about!

Damn, I love this place. Less than 10 minutes to get the answer.

I'd love to get a box of those to Old Painless for some Box O Truth testing. I wonder why they're not around anymore.

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:49:44 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I had BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) 9mm rounds like that in the '80s. They were over a buck a round then!

YES! I just googled that and those are exactly what I'm talking about!

Damn, I love this place. Less than 10 minutes to get the answer.

I'd love to get a box of those to Old Painless for some Box O Truth testing. I wonder why they're not around anymore.

Dangit...I thought I had it with the PMC Ultramag Cookie Cutters.

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:49:48 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I had BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) 9mm rounds like that in the '80s. They were over a buck a round then!

YES! I just googled that and those are exactly what I'm talking about!

Damn, I love this place. Less than 10 minutes to get the answer.

I'd love to get a box of those to Old Painless for some Box O Truth testing. I wonder why they're not around anymore.

I'm pretty sure is went away because it was deemed armor piercing handgun ammo. (At least in PMC's case)

Posted: 9/29/2011 7:54:09 AM EDT

[#11]

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=102068

Posted: 9/29/2011 8:09:20 AM EDT

[#12]

The Geco BAT rounds were considered armor piercing. Either Soldier of Fortune or SWAT magazine had an article about the BAT rounds bring recovered at the compound in Waco, not sure if they said who used them or not.
Mas Ayoob wrote several articlem mentioning the PMC copper versions, I believe they manufactured them under license from Geco or paid Some sort of fee for using their design. The Geco rounds were made from some sort of hardened metal specifically designed to cut/penetrate soft armor, I believe PMC made no such claim, instead hyping the copper versions ability to cut through soft tissue.

Posted: 9/29/2011 8:15:36 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
The Geco BAT rounds were considered armor piercing. Either Soldier of Fortune or SWAT magazine had an article about the BAT rounds bring recovered at the compound in Waco, not sure if they said who used them or not.
Mas Ayoob wrote several articlem mentioning the PMC copper versions, I believe they manufactured them under license from Geco or paid Some sort of fee for using their design. The Geco rounds were made from some sort of hardened metal specifically designed to cut/penetrate soft armor, I believe PMC made no such claim, instead hyping the copper versions ability to cut through soft tissue.

Wow, thanks. Makes a lot of sense. We shot one through a refrigerator, so I can vouch for the penetration. Pretty interesting ammo.

I always hated the whole restriction on AP handgun ammo, since pretty much any hunting rifle achieves much more success against body armor and such laws worried me for the slippery slope implications.

Posted: 9/29/2011 8:20:31 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I had BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) 9mm rounds like that in the '80s. They were over a buck a round then!

YES! I just googled that and those are exactly what I'm talking about!

Damn, I love this place. Less than 10 minutes to get the answer.

I'd love to get a box of those to Old Painless for some Box O Truth testing. I wonder why they're not around anymore.

Dangit...I thought I had it with the PMC Ultramag Cookie Cutters.

I have a partial box of those at home in either .38 or .357. Lord knows where they are in my stuff though.

Posted: 9/29/2011 8:28:51 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?p=WX2&i=102068

That looks interesting.

-> Sold out.

Posted: 9/29/2011 8:42:23 AM EDT

[#16]

They are considered armor piercing because they are homogenously made out of an alloy harder than copper.

The rounds allegedly recovered and used by ATF at Waco were cyclone bullets. They are different.

Posted: 9/29/2011 8:56:24 AM EDT

[#17]

I still have one box of it from the 5 I bought back in the early 90s when I owned an old humped feed ramp Browning Hi Power.
They were popular back in the 80s and 90s in countries where either the Browning was popular (European and South American CT teams mostly) or the hollow points frowned up legally or just mistrusted.
The were known as the Geco Action Safety internationally, but were marketed as the Blitz Action Trauma in the US.

Posted: 9/29/2011 9:07:02 AM EDT

[#18]

Well,they work:

Through a Suburban door:

and :

Posted: 9/29/2011 9:27:40 AM EDT

[#19]

It was the Gecco BAT round...I remember those...they were devistating according to 'gun mags'

CVN

Posted: 9/29/2011 9:39:22 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

It was the Gecco BAT round...I remember those...they were devistating according to 'gun mags'

CVN

You sure?

Posted: 9/29/2011 9:46:14 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Well,they work:

Through a Suburban door:

http://www.westlord.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Notorious-BIG-GMC-Suburban-Bullets-Holes.jpg

and :

http://www.sweetslyrics.com/images/img_gal/10433_Notorious+BIG+.jpg

Oh damn, that guy you posted that pic from pwned you with his bandwidth thief message.

Posted: 9/29/2011 9:52:40 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It was the Gecco BAT round...I remember those...they were devistating according to 'gun mags'

CVN

You sure?

Ha...I herped when I should have derped...got it.

I remember this 'annual' handgun magazine from about circa 1983 or so, and they shot a bunch of pigs with various 9mm ammo, and the Gecco BAT rounds were the ones they loved...I also remember reading about the Armson OEG optic for rifles...I think it was one of the first 'red dot' scopes...they also talked about the HK VP70Z...and talked about what a turd of a handgun it was.

My mom found the magazine, and it had some graphic images of recently deceased hogs...she was not amused...at least it wasn't porn.

CVN

Posted: 9/29/2011 9:56:18 AM EDT

[#23]

My mom watched as my dad taught me to gut hogs. Interesting what a diverse bunch of posters we have.

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:09:16 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Well,they work:

Through a Suburban door:

http://www.westlord.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Notorious-BIG-GMC-Suburban-Bullets-Holes.jpg

and :

http://www.sweetslyrics.com/images/img_gal/10433_Notorious+BIG+.jpg

Oh damn, that guy you posted that pic from pwned you with his bandwidth thief message.

Oh no...now he might come shoot me

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:13:16 AM EDT

[#25]

I've got some boxes of BAT in my colleciton somewhere, got Ultramag 38 too.

Interesting stuff for sure.

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:13:57 AM EDT

[#26]

There was another series of rounds that were discussed in an article about Ed Cirillo. They looked like a lead SWC with a 'saw tooth' type leading edge.

Does anyone remember those too?

CVN

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:15:06 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

My mom watched as my dad taught me to gut hogs. Interesting what a diverse bunch of posters we have.

It was a bit odd as my mom never got worried about me cleaning fish or anything like that.

CVN

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:17:55 AM EDT

[#28]

The old IMI SMG Uzi round?

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:19:26 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

There was another series of rounds that were discussed in an article about Jim Ed Cirillo. They looked like a lead SWC with a 'saw tooth' type leading edge.

Does anyone remember those too?

CVN

Pin Grabbers:

Kaswer Custom loaded them for bowling pin shooting out of mostly revolvers. Jim came along and put a plastic cap on them to get them to feed in autoloaders. I don't think they were ever marketed in that format.

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:29:01 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
There was another series of rounds that were discussed in an article about Jim Ed Cirillo. They looked like a lead SWC with a 'saw tooth' type leading edge.

Does anyone remember those too?

CVN

Pin Grabbers:

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/box.jpg

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/duo.jpg

Kaswer Custom loaded them for bowling pin shooting out of mostly revolvers. Jim came along and put a plastic cap on them to get them to feed in autoloaders. I don't think they were ever marketed in that format.

Those look similar to Extreme Shock Fang Face ammo.

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=0&ida=34&idp=14&his=0|14&cart_id=134

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:31:28 AM EDT

[#31]

Thanks Lumpy...talk about a blast from the past.

CVN

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:32:56 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Those look similar to Extreme Shock Fang Face ammo.

Nothing alike in design or original purpose though. The Pin Grabbers were meant for biting into the hard plastic coating of a bowling pin and spinning it off a table on an off-center hit. Cirillo, based on experience from what he witnessed in shootouts liked a bullet that had a wide, sharp mouth to bite into skulls and cut tissue. The PG was just one round he tinkered with to make do just that out of an auto loader. It never went anywhere.
The Extreme Shit is lightweight, shallow penetrating, frangible ammo.

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:42:55 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Those look similar to Extreme Shock Fang Face ammo.

Nothing alike in design or original purpose though. The Pin Grabbers were meant for biting into the hard plastic coating of a bowling pin and spinning it off a table on an off-center hit. Cirillo, based on experience from what he witnessed in shootouts liked a bullet that had a wide, sharp mouth to bite into skulls and cut tissue. The PG was just one round he tinkered with to make do just that out of an auto loader. It never went anywhere.

The Extreme Shit is lightweight, shallow penetrating, frangible ammo.

I recall Peter Kokalis testing the Pin Grabbers in gelatin for SOF around 1990 or so. Could be wrong, though.

Posted: 9/29/2011 10:57:01 AM EDT

[#34]

Wasn't it "Jim," Cirrillo, not Ed?

I have some old 70 & 80 era Gecco, 124 JHP that is hotter then a depot stove! My old High-power would eat it up! You wouldn't believe the penetration in an old wrecked Ford. It also played heck on the engine block!

Like some else posted, "A blast from the past!"

Posted: 9/29/2011 12:31:01 PM EDT

[#35]

Back in the 80's when I first shot a Model 92, I thought ammo was 90 grain across the board.

Posted: 9/29/2011 12:36:43 PM EDT

[#36]

I still have odds and ends of Glaser and KTW Teflon coated ammo from back in the day. I mostly regret not buying some .38 Quads and that demo MBA Gyrojet pistol and ammo gathering dust on the shelf.................my cost $85..........

Posted: 9/29/2011 12:45:22 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
I still have odds and ends of Glaser and KTW Teflon coated ammo from back in the day. I mostly regret not buying some .38 Quads and that demo MBA Gyrojet pistol and ammo gathering dust on the shelf.................my cost $85..........

That's a keeper! KTW
Wonder what the going price is now?

Wasn't that the ammo they used on Lethal Weapon that was penetrating a D9 blade!

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What ever happened to this 80s 9mm ammo?

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