Ruby Ridge was the most obscene abuse of authority I have ever seen. Randy Weaver was considered a white separatist (not sepremeist), he was a Vietnam Vet (decorated) and just wanted to live alone in the mountains with his family.
He had attended a meeting of the Aryan Nation or similar group and decided that it was not for him.

The FBI had been trying to infilterate that particular group but knew they would be found out right away. They did not know the little idiosychracies of the white supremists. So Randy Weaver was the obvious choice.

They approached Randy and asked him to help and he said no. So, they then sent an undercover dude to buy a shotgun from him. After much persuasion, the undercover dude convinced Weaver to cut off a portion of the barrel at a specified location that the undercover dude picked. It just so happens that it made the shotgun illegal by about a 1/4 of an inch.

A warrant for his arrest was issued and they gave him a choice help us and we will drop the charges, don't help us, and you go to jail.

Randy told them no again. He was then released and a court summons was sent. However, it had the wrong date for court. The date listed was several weeks after the actual court date. (smell a setup here) Court took place and they convicted him in abscencia.

A warrant for his arrest was put out, they assemble a small, heavily armed group of men to go out and arrest him.

Randy's son was walking with the family friend in the woods with his dog, when a US Marshell shot the dog and killed it. There was no announcement that he was a peace officer or anything else for that matter. The boy believing he was being attacked returned fire and the US Marshell killed him (he was only 11 or so years old) The family friend then shot and killed the US Marshell.

They retreated to the cabin, where they had to leave the boys body out in the front for several days.

Before long Hirachi made his infamous shot, and soon after Weaver surrendered.

They tried the family friend for 1st degree murder of a peace officer, of which he was acquited. Weaver was awarded several million dollars as compensation for the gov'ts f.u.

No criminal, or diciplinary charges were ever leveled against anyone involved. Not even Hirachi he is definitely guilty of first degree, pre-meditated murder.

The message sent, do what we tell you to do or we will fuck you with impunity. We will destroy your life, kill your family and take your soul.

PS
Randy is a white separatist not a white supremast (sp) Big difference.

I thought he published a book and hit the gun show circuit a while back. I've seen him occasionally on some talk shows.

I saw him a few months ago at a gun show here in Ohio selling his book. (I got an autographed copy.)
He looks like a stupid dirty man, but once you hear him talk that impression changes quickly.

Yea he is usually here at the Georgia mountain gun shows but I don't know if he is still doing it.

yeah, he was at the Indy 1500 show last weekend.

Idaho

I saw him back in January (i think) at a gun show in wilmington, OH. He was selling books.
I was next to him in line at the concessions. Seemed like a real nice guy when I spoke with him.  I've heard he is a White supremacist/Nazi, but have also heard he is not. Didn't seem like one to me.

As I understand the "separatist" thing, they just don't want to live around people of different colors (IMHO, there is one race, the Human one).  A separatist isn't an attack 'em, run 'm out of town kind of guy.  As far as I'm concerned, if he wasn't bothering anyone the government had no business doing what they did.  

I do not care whether he is into white power or not anyway. Stand up for the white race and it is labeled as hate. Stand up for your race as a minority and it is called pride.

Amen brother. We could start a whole new thread based on that statement. We have "Gay Days" happening across town at Disney World and "Gay Pride" happening in my home town of Nashville Tenn. There just ain't any equality in this world for a straight white man that owns firearms.

Don't even get me started!

And as long as you are not allowed to question the obvious inequities, the outright falsehoods and misconceptions, you will never see any meaningful improvements.
I was raised by what would essentially be a single mom in the 50’s. She never was paid to the same level as men, though she did the work. Mom raised me to respect everyone and to not look down on any person, race or creed, and only as an adult did I learn of her mistrust of non-white races. In short I entered the ‘60’s with correct PC views.
In the times since I’ve seen much that is obviously wrong, and what is worse, have been accused of being anti xxxx if I dare to question some of the blatant abuses fostered against white males by minority or feminist interests.
Pure and simple, if you can do the job there should be no limits. Unfortunately I go one step too far and do not believe that just because you are a white male that you should be penalized by a point system, outright excluded from a job because we want a xxxx in there, and all the others reverse hate directed back our way.
Like everyone else I was lulled into complacency because “we owed it to them to make it right”. I naively believed that within 20 years we would all be able to co-exist, and to fairly compete with each other. After all we all only have one lifetime on the planet, and one generation sacrificed is enough. Now I am looking at my son and grandson, and hearing increased demands and calls for set asides, reparations, etc.
It really is enough. I still believe that racism and sexism is wrong. And I still believe that it holds both ways. I am no longer naïve enough to believe that things will be just if we just sit back and let things run their course. We have to “just say no.”

I saw his daughter at a gun show a while back, she was HOT!

Randy Weaver is a repulsive, miserable turd of a human being. The biggest tragedy out of that whole affair is that he came down from that hill alive, when other, more deserving souls did not.

There is an industry out of generating BS about what happened at Ruby Ridge. The reality is that Randy Weaver is and was a whacked out nutjob, and the ATF tried to use him as an informant. The ATF operation was flawed, and wrong, and Weaver likely would not have been convicted.

Whatever the real reason behind the errors in dates on court paperwork, Weaver knew that he was wanted on felony charges, and knew that he was a fugitive, and had no intention of turning himself in to authorities. The ATF wisely handed the whole matter off to the Marshall's Service, who sent SOG to do surveillance.

Seeing as how Weaver was an armed-to-the-teeth white supremacist and arguably far out of touch with reality, he was a dangerous fugitive. He furthered this by arming his entire family round the clock, and prepping them to be prepared to fight the government off.

At the time Weaver's son and friend engaged the Marshall's SOG Team, the SOG Team was engaged in their lawful duties (surveillance), and were covered under the general authority granted officers in serving felony warrants. They had a right to be on Weaver's property to serve that warrant, and their actions and posture were defensive only. gathering information prior to acting is important, and the main goal was to see if they could get Weaver away from the compound to arrest him away from his family, who were not facing any criminal charges.

Whether he agreed with it or not, Weaver had no authority, right or other lawful power to resist the service of the warrant. Even if the facts of the case were incorrect or not to the level necessary for a conviction (which they were in this case), Weaver had no right to resist or evade the service of that warrant. Period. Everything that happened was a result of his actions. The first gunfight was tragic, but the Marshals had full authority to be there, and everyone on that hill (including the kids) knew that there was a good chance that they would encounter federal agents out there. The gunfight was and ensuing loss of life was tragic, but bad things happen sometimes. Sammy Weaver had no right to shoot Marshals, and the Marshals were in a bad tactical situation; compromised by the dog, they engage the dog, and then are taken under fire. What is the right answer under those circumstances?

As to the other people who were shot by the FBI the following day, there has only been one account from that incident from the FBI side yet. It says that the shooting occurred during darkness, and that several people emerged from the house, armed and charged in the direction of one of the FBI sniper positions, apparently firing a weapon or weapons (gunfire was heard by all of the perimeter elements before the sniper engaged. They were engaged by the one sniper with a view of the scene, and stopped. The only source that claims that Mrs. Weaver was holding a baby or doing innocent activities is Randy Weaver himself.

The bumbling FBI attempt at a cover-up of what was most likely a legitimate shooting was stupid and unnecessary, but it does not change the facts and circumstances of what really happened up there. Randy Weaver is responsible for ALL of those deaths, and has yet to be held accountable for a single one. If he would have presented himself at court for his indictment hearing, the charges would most likely been dismissed prior to trial, or he would have been acquitted. The proper place to fight criminal charges or warrants is not the side of the road or your front door step, it is in a court room. Weaver was an adult and damned well knew better, and he endangered the lives of his family by choosing to do otherwise.

Frankly I am sick and tired of these bogus canonization attempts about Randy Weaver. He is a POS and deserves to be rotting in prison. Instead he profited from the destruction of all of those lives.

Oh, and he is a white supremacist. This "white separatist" crap is pure semantics made to make his story sound more appealing to us gun folks who would normal quail at the thought of being sympathetic towards a Nazi. Consider the fact that all of the "facts" about this incident come from one source, one side, and the government side, for all their flaws, has never said their case.

He lives in Iowa. Not far from here.

Aviator

natez=troll

Uh.... why didn't they just walk away!!!!

OMG! They'll discover that we're watching him! Shoot the dog before it's too late!

Why exactly hasn't the government never stated their case? Is it because there's practically nothing to dispute?

Any why exactly does he deserve to be rotting in jail? Because he's well-armed? Becuase he holds beliefs you don't agree with? Because he told his family to defend themselves and gave them the tools to do so?

By all accounts he was living peaceably in his mountain retreat. So what if he doesn't like people of other colors? So what if he thinks we should all be lockedup/thrown in jail/kicked out/killed/whatever the supremacists think? If he isn't acting on his beliefs, you have NO RIGHT to go after him the way they did.

He's not a saint. But by god, you got to give him credit for one thing. If they did to me what they did to him, Horiuchi would be a dead man. But telling me this "threat to society" hasn't even killed the man who shot his wife in cold blood? Some threat.

... So this is how Lon Horiuchi sleeps nights?

Bottom line.

Weaver's young son and wife were murdered and his personal image was publicly trashed because he cut a piece of metal .25 inches too short and wouldn't roll over for the FBI.

It doesn't matter what views he holds or how often he shaves or takes a shower.  He didn't deserve the BS he's been put through by our government.  This is after all the "land of the free".

We've come to a point in this society that if someone looks different or thinks different, they are automatically "bad" and suspect.

I fear it's too late to turn back.

Being as Weaver was NOT armed with anything more potent than a mini-14 (I have a hard copy of the indicment and none of the 14 weapons including the BB gun listed are exactly heavy armarment), NOT a white supremacist (if you do not understant the difference between the words separate and supreme you are too ignorant to correct here) and probably not as far out of touch as you come across, GET A LIFE!  Planerench out.

Unlike so many others on this board, I am not going to opine on what happened that day between the Weavers and the U.S. Marshals, because I was not there.  I would, however, like to ask Mr. Weaver one question.  What kind of a man, knowing he has an outstanding arrest warrant, arms his children and hides behind his wife's skirt in order to evade arrest?

natez = our local ATF spy.

I will eat, drink, talk with Randy anytime.  He seems a decent man.  FBI or ATF, on the other hand are, for the most part, a dishonorable lot that I equate with only bad things.  Their actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco are no better than Soddom Insanes thugs.

I believe the above text to be a fairly accurate assessment.

natez--if the government was in the right, why did they give him millions of dollars as a settlement with "no admission of wrongdoing?"

my understanding was also his court date was changed and he was never notified.

IRC the shotguns barrel was 18 inches it was the over all length that was just a fraction of the inch under.

Thats what you get for living like a free man in America!

In regards as to why he didn't come off the mountain and go to court, I belive if I read correctly that he was given the wrong date to appear. I met him at a gun show and he seemed like an alright guy in my opinion. What happend to his family ought to make any freedom loving american pissed-off.

You are out of touch with reality!

The government had the chance to provide all of the facts.  They had they're day in court.  [b]It is public record[/b].  Turns out Weaver was guilty of cutting a piece of metal a quarter of an inch too short.  No other charges.  No other crimes.  Period!

It is not a crime to be a white sepremicist or a white separatist or a even nazi for that matter.  We have the 1st amendment that protects free speech and free thought, and we have the 2nd amendment to f#$%ing back it up.  If you don't like the Bill of Rights why don't you take your socialist ass and move to someplace simpler, like France.

There is alway a bunch of talk around the gunshops and these internet boards about this right or that right. Well by God Randy Weaver had the balls to stand up for what is right.  He paid dearly for his courage and deserves any restitution he recieved from the government and any royalties he will recieve from his book.

Horiuchi's actions are not for me to judge...

That being said, I wouldn't want to be him having to explain that one on judgment day.

I think we about covered everything on the Randy Weaver subject. The bottom line is that if it could happen to him it could happen to any one of us. All it would take is one legal discrepancy on that AR-15 that you are holding. If the Feds want you bad enough, for whatever reason, they can and will find something to haul you in. It would be wise to remember that when you go hauling the pre-ban upper on the post-ban lower out to the public firing range. (thread on this subject earlier this week.)

[blue]________________________________[/blue]

hmmm... so I wonder what you do for a living ?? [rolleyes]

Just call 'em a Nazi...
That's all it takes. [rolleyes]

Who fucking cares if he was a White Supremacist?  Personally, I don't buy into those petty little labels. I don't think the white race needs clubs to make ourselves feel superior. It's pretty obvious that we are.

That said, the whole "white supremacist" thing is just a label used to incite anger towards him and cause people to overlook what was done to him.

i predict the pc police will soon be here

Something about looking a man directly in the eyes as you talk to him personally and ask the hard questions. You can tell what they're made of. You can tell if they're lying.

I've personally spoken to R.W. on 3 maybe 4 occasions and for quite a while on 2 of those occasions.

I believe him way more than I believe the government.

People should think twice before critizing him for arming his children.  My understanding is that the Weavers lived in a remote cabin.  If this is the case, his children had the right to be armed.  I've been a hunter for most of my life and whether with my dad or by myself I wouldn't even consider walking away from the vehicle without at least my .22 Bearcat on my side.

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

--------------------------
All together now...LOOOOOOOOOOOOSER! [kill]

cynic

I was confused for a second there, but I get it now!  Natez [b]IS[/b] Agent Horiuchi!

You are not getting it:

1) The original charges against Weaver were BS, and he would not have been convicted;
2) Weaver can hold whatever replusive beliefs he wants, but I think that it is disingenuous to let him off the hook by referring to him as a "White Separatist<," rather than what he really is;
3) Despite all of the confusion about the court date and notices being sent late, the bottom line is that Weaver knew that he a court appearance to make, had no intention of going, and knew that warrants would be issued.

Weaver knew what was likely to happen and exacerbated the situation. Weaver is responsible. Period.

Attempts to make Weaver out to be a 2nd Amendment Martyr, or a poster boy of any other kind for any cause are self-defeating. He is not a sympathetic character in this whole fiasco.

I also see numerous references to him as a "Vietnam veteran" or former "SF," but I have never seen anything that actually backs that, and doubt the veracity of those claims as well. Anyone care to enlighten me?

The mainissue, which most here seem to be missing, is the fact that he was a fugitive and knew it. He could have cleared the whole situation up with no loss of life to anyone by appearing in court. His refusal to do so set up the tragedies that occurred later. This would have been anothing case, dismissed by the AUSA prior to trial if he would have done that. Everything that follows stems from that.

Officers have a "good faith" exemption when serving warrants. The officers serving the warrant usually have no way to know the facts and circumstances surrounding a particular warrant; the reasonably have to assume that it is valid, and in any case, only a judge has the authority to "void" a warrant. The officers have a clear duty to serve warrants. Again, Weaver could have resolved this situation peacefully. Instead, he decided to escalate this situation and put his family at risk. He is responsible.

Dude, sometimes its hard to tell when people are being really sarcastic.  You shouldn't be so subtle or people will start thinking your a troll or something

Nels

It's looks like Natez has convinced himself that he made a good shoot so he can sleep at night.  At least when it comes to judgement day his BS won't hold up...

Bottom line is that the government started firing the shots, and tricked Weaver into breaking federal laws.  He would have never broken the law had he not been duped by an agent.

I thought our government agents are supposed to be protecting us, not schoolyard bullies provoking us. [rolleyes]

Mrs. Weaver was a diehard white seperatist.  If the government comes after my family, you better damn well believe that I will stay and fight with and for them rather than running to give myself to the feds.  If you wanna call this "hiding behind a skirt", then go ahead.  I call it standing by my family.

In my liberty-loving mind, simple as it is, I just can't understand somebody being such a hardcore apologist for the government's actions in this case.



This sounds like the Reno DOJ justifying disarming folks.  Gun owners who don't trust the government have to be nuts.




Tragic, as in bad things sometimes happen to innocent people, but it's nobody's fault if a government employee is pulling the trigger?  Sammy had no right to shoot?  He saw a guy in camo shoot his dog and the marshal didn't identify himself.  I'd sure feel threatened.  BTW, Sammy shot "at" the marshal then ran away.  IIRC, it was after the marshal shot Sammy in the BACK that Weaver's friend turned and took out the man who drew first blood.

Natez, would I be correct in assuming you are employed by a government agency?  This type of thinking tends to make people believe that the government considers them subjects, rather than free men.

Posted By natez:
Seeing as how Weaver was an armed-to-the-teeth white supremacist and arguably far out of touch with reality, he was a dangerous fugitive. He furthered this by arming his entire family round the clock, and prepping them to be prepared to fight the government off.[/quote]

Ah, yes...  therefore it made perfect sense for the Gov. to spend multi-millions to apprehend him  because he sold a "sawed-off" shotgun. They spent more $$ on ariel photography of the Weaver  place than they did on the photo recon prior to the invasion of Haiti, according to the popular belief.

Meanwhile, heavily armed, extremely violent, minority street gangs have turned our cities into quasi-tribal warzones...... and instead of targeting them with the full power of federal  anti-terroism and racketeeering laws, the powers-that-be stand aside, for fear of loosing the minority vote.

Assuming for a moment the Weaver  was/is  a nutcase...... why not just leave him and his family on their mountain.... it's not like they were dealing crack or shootin' up tha 'hood.

CKMorley

I usually do not get involved in such discussions however I must make an exception here

1. Failure to  appear is not punishable by death or even the death of your family members

2. The arms my family has would make R.W.look like he had a slingshot

3. The FIRST thing new shooters are told is to know your target and what is beyond it. For a sniper who is concealed and controls a field of fire any other conclusion other than MURDER in this case is dilusionary.

4. No one even seems to care that the initial agents ,Marshalls were UNIDENTIFIED HOSTILE TRESPASSERS on private property. But individual private property rights dont seem to matter to many. The concept of a man's home being his castle is gone. Where did it go?  

I think it left along with the Fourth Ammendement to the United States Constituion

Me too!


[LOL]

I think I heard that Randy Weaver had to put up is land and home in order to make bail and if he didn't show up for his court date the Gov. would take it. Then they changed the court date and did not notify him of the change.I could be wrong on all of this but I seem to recall  seeing a show about this on the Discovery channel. If that was the case I wouldn't have left my property either.