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Posted: 7/23/2013 7:11:16 PM EST
The Soviet division would have materialized north of Minsk, "Final Countdown" style.    It has T-72' tanks. ZBU antiaircraft weapons, BMP-1's, T-80's, and an air wing of Mi-24 Hinds.  The unit is fully armed, but has no chance for resupply.    How long would they last, and would they be able to beat back the Nazi's (or at least have a major impact)

Discuss.  Poll inbound
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:14:47 PM EST
[#1]
About 24 hrs? The Germans might have retreated or held back only to come back more intent in the spring.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:15:37 PM EST
[#2]
didn't we see that with Gulf War 1?

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:17:21 PM EST
[#3]
A 250kg bomb dropped by a Ju-87 doesn't care if it's a T-34 or a T-72.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:17:21 PM EST
[#4]


George Custer would have taken charge of the retreating German forces and defeated the Russians and the Sioux.



Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:17:34 PM EST
[#5]
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:19:36 PM EST
[#6]
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Quoted:
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.
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This...with the addition of ZSU 23/4, it ends the Stuka threat.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:19:45 PM EST
[#7]
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Quoted:
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.
View Quote


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:20:32 PM EST
[#8]
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Quoted:
A 250kg bomb dropped by a Ju-87 doesn't care if it's a T-34 or a T-72.
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This thing would tear the Ju-87's out of the sky before they knew what hit it.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:23:52 PM EST
[#9]
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Quoted:


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.


SA 14's would take care of any air threats that the Germans could put in the air.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:25:09 PM EST
[#10]
It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:25:37 PM EST
[#11]
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Quoted:


SA 14's would take care of any air threats that the Germans could put in the air.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.


SA 14's would take care of any air threats that the Germans could put in the air.


You'll run out of SA-14s LONG before Army Group Center runs out of Bf-109s... much less Hs-123s, Hs-129s, allied Romanian IAR-80s, Ju-88s, Fw-190s...

This is all just assuming that the Heinkels, Junkers, and Dorniers don't just bomb the shit out of the division's rally points from 20,000 feet.  Repeatedly.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:28:14 PM EST
[#12]
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Quoted:


You'll run out of SA-14s LONG before Army Group Center runs out of Bf-109s.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.


SA 14's would take care of any air threats that the Germans could put in the air.


You'll run out of SA-14s LONG before Army Group Center runs out of Bf-109s.

The Nazis wouldn't know that.


Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:29:10 PM EST
[#13]
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Quoted:
It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.
View Quote

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:30:18 PM EST
[#14]
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Quoted:


You'll run out of SA-14s LONG before Army Group Center runs out of Bf-109s.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.


SA 14's would take care of any air threats that the Germans could put in the air.


You'll run out of SA-14s LONG before Army Group Center runs out of Bf-109s.


Does not matter, you loose enough aircraft and experienced pilots due to an unknown threat, you have to react.  Soviets would move fast, with self propelled arty and armor and eat up ground and take down German supply lines.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:31:44 PM EST
[#15]
German critical thinking and artillery fire for the win (you forgot to give it to the Russians ) after the Russians run out of fuel.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:32:10 PM EST
[#16]
The full weight of the luftwaffe would be required to neutralize the Soviet tank division.  The Aa guns, SAMs, Hind-24s must be removed so the JU-87s can wreak havoc on Soviet T-72s and infantry AFVs.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:32:16 PM EST
[#17]
Without fuel resupply it wouldn't last more than a few days.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:33:31 PM EST
[#18]
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Quoted:


Does not matter, you loose enough aircraft and experienced pilots due to an unknown threat, you have to react.  Soviets would move fast, with self propelled arty and armor and eat up ground and take down German supply lines.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The MI-24 HIND changes everything.

WW2 ground vehicles would be annihilated.


They'd last a few days until the Bf-109s mop up.


SA 14's would take care of any air threats that the Germans could put in the air.


You'll run out of SA-14s LONG before Army Group Center runs out of Bf-109s.


Does not matter, you loose enough aircraft and experienced pilots due to an unknown threat, you have to react.  Soviets would move fast, with self propelled arty and armor and eat up ground and take down German supply lines.

What kind of logisitcs tail does the 80's division have?
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:34:26 PM EST
[#19]
They would have held the Germans back in their sector for about 12 hours.  Then, they would have been encircled and killed off.                    

Logistics.  

Then the Germans would have reverse engineered all the equipment and defeated the Russians.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:35:04 PM EST
[#20]
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Quoted:
Without fuel resupply it wouldn't last more than a few days.
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...and it would probably be bombed into scrap overnight from 20,000 feet, given the attention it would attract.

An armored division really doesn't have organic defense against strategic aerial bombardment.  That's completely discounting artillery, which the Germans had in spades.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:38:24 PM EST
[#21]
Quoted:
The Soviet division would have materialized north of Minsk, "Final Countdown" style.    It has T-72' tanks. ZBU antiaircraft weapons, BMP-1's, T-80's, and an air wing of Mi-24 Hinds.  The unit is fully armed, but has no chance for resupply.    How long would they last, and would they be able to beat back the Nazi's (or at least have a major impact)

Discuss.  Poll inbound
View Quote


They would be handicapped by the shortage of 100 AK47 rifles that were shipped to the Confederates.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:39:16 PM EST
[#22]
Alot of people are failing to realize how much smaller russian divisions are in comparison to Western formations. Regardless, if they can keep fuel in the tanks, the unit would be able to quickly fill gaps in the line and if need be blow a hole in the encirclement.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:41:07 PM EST
[#23]
Initially, the overall combat front extended for 1720 miles, the main front was 820 miles. Wide.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:41:20 PM EST
[#24]
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Quoted:



This thing would tear the Ju-87's out of the sky before they knew what hit it.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGlM97IbYvped1mwLXuW73XE1b2K11ozGol7pxF­deq0gpQk1wxWw
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
A 250kg bomb dropped by a Ju-87 doesn't care if it's a T-34 or a T-72.



This thing would tear the Ju-87's out of the sky before they knew what hit it.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGlM97IbYvped1mwLXuW73XE1b2K11ozGol7pxF­deq0gpQk1wxWw


Right up to the point the guns go dry (out of ammo) ...  With no resupply, they are a 48-72 hour Tsunami, but only a temporary effect until fuel and ammo are out.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:42:49 PM EST
[#25]
Harry Turtledove do this one?
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:47:54 PM EST
[#26]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.
View Quote


This.  The Soviet Army in 1941 was a joke.



Few people realize they had the T-34 in significant numbers, and it was superior to anything the Germans had.  They still lost.



 
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:51:46 PM EST
[#27]
No chance for reinforcement makes no sense given the premises.  That being said, 80's or 90's red army would've crushed 40's era german stuff.  This is like asking how desert storm would've gone if the Iraqi's were set back an additional 10 years.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:52:40 PM EST
[#28]
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Quoted:

This.  The Soviet Army in 1941 was a joke.

Few people realize they had the T-34 in significant numbers, and it was superior to anything the Germans had.  They still lost.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.

This.  The Soviet Army in 1941 was a joke.

Few people realize they had the T-34 in significant numbers, and it was superior to anything the Germans had.  They still lost.

Wait...wut?

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:56:50 PM EST
[#29]
Depends on where it was camped and also if they using the deep battle doctrine or just trying to hold on.  If they were the north or north central or south they could have upset the huge initial gains.  If they had been in the Kiev area they could have potentially pushed the Germans back and caused a whole lot of issues by exposing the massive flanks of Army Groups North and South.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 7:59:16 PM EST
[#30]
1 division wouldn't have enough of an impact.  
Helicopters - easy prey for fighters and flak.
Soft skinned vehicles and BMPs - destroyed by tanks, artillery and antitank guns.
T-80s - harder to destroy, but I would guess an 88mm FlaK gun could do the job with a side or rear hit.  The Russians did have some pretty heavy tanks even in 1941, the scale of the war was just so large that even several hundred weren't enough to make a difference.





KV-2
Armament: 152mm
Weight:  53.1 tonnes



Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:01:27 PM EST
[#31]
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What kind of logisitcs tail does the 80's division have?
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They have their full fuel reserves as if they were preparing for battle with NATO forces.  They were caught heading towards E. Germany.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:01:31 PM EST
[#32]

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Quoted:





Wait...wut?



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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.


This.  The Soviet Army in 1941 was a joke.



Few people realize they had the T-34 in significant numbers, and it was superior to anything the Germans had.  They still lost.


Wait...wut?





The main German battle tank in 1941 was the Pzk III H version, with a short 50 mm.  It worked great against lighter tanks but was wholly ineffective against the T-34.  Not even the J/M versions with the long 50 mm could outclass the T-34.  The Pzk IV was still an infantry support tank, almost all of which were equipped with the short 75 mm gun.  The main German weapon which was successful against the T-34 was the 88 mm FLAK gun.



The Germans won battles not through the strength of their individual tanks but through their mobility and command and control; they literally ran circles around the British, French and Russian armies during 1940 and 1941.  Add to that their close air support and it's no wonder they went through the Soviet Army like a hot knife through butter.  The Soviet Army was commanded mostly by Stalin cronies and loyal party members who couldn't have effectively fought the Germans even if they had superior weaponry.



 
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:02:48 PM EST
[#33]
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Wait...wut?

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Quoted:
Quoted:
It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.

This.  The Soviet Army in 1941 was a joke.

Few people realize they had the T-34 in significant numbers, and it was superior to anything the Germans had.  They still lost.

Wait...wut?




It's true.  They had quite a few T-34s early on.

ETA:  Of the 3266 Panzers available only 1146 had guns 50mm or larger.  Soviets had 8590 tanks with 1590 being T-34s and KVs.  Roughly 2/3 were T-34s. Really came down to the German tactics.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:07:50 PM EST
[#34]
I think it would be an " Ah, Shit !!", moment for the German Army, but they would quickly regroup and
eventually overcome the Soviet force. Then they would reverse engineer the modern equipment, and
possibly win the war.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:13:25 PM EST
[#35]
Do they have their organic supply trucks? They will dominate the fuck out of whatever is in front of them.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:16:43 PM EST
[#36]
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Do they have their organic supply trucks? They will dominate the fuck out of whatever is in front of them.
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Yes, they have their supply trucks.  But, only those supplies that they have with them at the time would go with.  Once they are out, they are out.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:18:38 PM EST
[#37]
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Quoted:

Yes, they have their supply trucks.  But, only those supplies that they have with them at the time would go with.  Once they are out, they are out.
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Do they have their organic supply trucks? They will dominate the fuck out of whatever is in front of them.

Yes, they have their supply trucks.  But, only those supplies that they have with them at the time would go with.  Once they are out, they are out.

Then eventually the Germans take down that division. Numbers, man. Numbers.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:19:28 PM EST
[#38]

From Jun 22 to Dec 5, 1941




The 5.5 million men Red Army lost 4 million. During this period they raised 821 division equivalents (of which only 73 were tank divisions) and lost a total 229. Things didn't look too good.




I love this bit of comparison.




In Jan 1942 the German Afrika Corps began their advance toward Egypt with 3 German and 7 Italian divisions against 7 British divisions.




In Jan and Feb 1942 9 Red Army Fronts with 37 armies and over 350 divisions smashed German defenses on a front of 600 miles and drove the German forces back 80-120 miles before they stabilized their defensive front in March.



Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:22:25 PM EST
[#39]
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It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.
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Oddly enough this is the most likely outcome.  Swoosh101 is a historical genius.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:31:29 PM EST
[#40]

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Quoted:





Then eventually the Germans take down that division. Numbers, man. Numbers.
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Do they have their organic supply trucks? They will dominate the fuck out of whatever is in front of them.


Yes, they have their supply trucks.  But, only those supplies that they have with them at the time would go with.  Once they are out, they are out.


Then eventually the Germans take down that division. Numbers, man. Numbers.
Given that the Russians won w/o the Warsaw Pact tank division, the added firepower would simply kill more tanks, shoot down more planes and cut off more German troops, than without. If they're saying that it's one division against the entire German Front, different story. One unlucky German division has a really bad day.



 
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:35:00 PM EST
[#41]
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Quoted:
It wouldn't do anything stalin would have recalled them to the interior, every soldier interrogated then killed or sent to the gulag he would then give the equipment to 10th rated commander and lose everything within 2 hours the germans would capture said equipment then win the war when they reproduced it.
View Quote


something vaguely similar to this.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:42:21 PM EST
[#42]
Just speculating, but if a Warsaw Pact Commander from the 80's got dropped into WWII, he would know the score, I.E Stalin. He might just go on the attack before the clown show could stop him and die fighting for Russia.






 
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:43:57 PM EST
[#43]
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Just speculating, but if a Warsaw Pact Commander from the 80's got dropped into WWII, he would know the score, I.E Stalin. He might just go on the attack before the clown show could stop him and die fighting for Russia.
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Russian officers played by a certain rule book they did not stray.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 8:49:35 PM EST
[#44]

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Quoted:
Russian officers played by a certain rule book they did not stray.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Just speculating, but if a Warsaw Pact Commander from the 80's got dropped into WWII, he would know the score, I.E Stalin. He might just go on the attack before the clown show could stop him and die fighting for Russia.




Russian officers played by a certain rule book they did not stray.
Warsaw Pact Officers used a different rulebook than Stalin. He wouldn't even know how to fight like WWII Russian units. Some units were trained to fight the NATO units, some were trained to bypass the NATO units and destroy the trains, airfields, depots and whatever else was useful to the enemy.





 
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 9:04:37 PM EST
[#45]
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Quoted:
They would have held the Germans back in their sector for about 12 hours.  Then, they would have been encircled and killed off.                    

Logistics.  

Then the Germans would have reverse engineered all the equipment and defeated the Russians.
View Quote


Reverse engineering 1940s tech? Easy. 80s? Going to be much harder. There is a much bigger gap. Replicating modern tech would have been much harder.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:53:06 AM EST
[#46]
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Quoted:
Given that the Russians won w/o the Warsaw Pact tank division, the added firepower would simply kill more tanks, shoot down more planes and cut off more German troops, than without. If they're saying that it's one division against the entire German Front, different story. One unlucky German division has a really bad day.
 
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Quoted:
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Do they have their organic supply trucks? They will dominate the fuck out of whatever is in front of them.

Yes, they have their supply trucks.  But, only those supplies that they have with them at the time would go with.  Once they are out, they are out.

Then eventually the Germans take down that division. Numbers, man. Numbers.
Given that the Russians won w/o the Warsaw Pact tank division, the added firepower would simply kill more tanks, shoot down more planes and cut off more German troops, than without. If they're saying that it's one division against the entire German Front, different story. One unlucky German division has a really bad day.
 

I still think that they would be able to wipe out significant parts of Army Group Center.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:04:51 AM EST
[#47]
Hans-Ulrich Rudel.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 8:21:50 AM EST
[#48]
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Quoted:

Reverse engineering 1940s tech? Easy. 80s? Going to be much harder. There is a much bigger gap. Replicating modern tech would have been much harder.
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Quoted:
They would have held the Germans back in their sector for about 12 hours.  Then, they would have been encircled and killed off.                    

Logistics.  

Then the Germans would have reverse engineered all the equipment and defeated the Russians.

Reverse engineering 1940s tech? Easy. 80s? Going to be much harder. There is a much bigger gap. Replicating modern tech would have been much harder.

True "reverse engineering" might not be feasible, but inspecting and examining the technology and design features would absolutely lead to the Germans fielding better equipment.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 8:33:26 AM EST
[#49]
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Harry Turtledove do this one?
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John Birmingham did a great job of a NATO style fleet dropping into the WWII Pacific.

The biggest influence might have been the Russian division going to Moscow and reverse engineering the equipment.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 8:36:48 AM EST
[#50]
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Quoted:



This thing would tear the Ju-87's out of the sky before they knew what hit it.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGlM97IbYvped1mwLXuW73XE1b2K11ozGol7pxF­deq0gpQk1wxWw
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Quoted:
Quoted:
A 250kg bomb dropped by a Ju-87 doesn't care if it's a T-34 or a T-72.



This thing would tear the Ju-87's out of the sky before they knew what hit it.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSGlM97IbYvped1mwLXuW73XE1b2K11ozGol7pxF­deq0gpQk1wxWw

Those would also chew up any of the German AFV's then in service.
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