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Posted: 9/25/2004 3:54:03 AM EST
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:03:10 AM EST
Since "conversions" are no longer allowed, you really are best not knowing how to do it.

The only allowed conversion anymore, is to use a Registered Drop-in Auto Sear(RDIAS) or Registered Lightning Link(RLL).
These are very expensive, and you need to go thru the entire Class 3 process including tax stamp to do it, before you take possession of the transferable RDIAS or RLL.

Not all AR-15 lower recievers will accept the RDIAS, and you will have to look for one that will accept it, or have yours modified.

That probably wasn't the answer you were looking for, but that is the safe answer you should get.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:03:25 AM EST
This is a very taboo topic. Read the Conduct Code...

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:03:34 AM EST
As you know, to "covert" an AR to full auto is a Federal crime. To provide information on how do commit such a felony is not wise to do. Suffice as to say, to perminantly convert an AR to full auto requires some skill. To jerry-rig an AR to fire full auto without all the necessary parts is dangerous. I would simply tell your friends it is not a simple procedure. No AR has ever converted itself so I doens't happen by accident and that to go step by step with them on how to commit a felony is not advisable.

PS. I only responded to this thread due to you large post count. This type of question is often asked by visiting trolls and kids.

Regards,
Gary
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:03:46 AM EST
Its best you dont even engage in conversations like that at work or here Mr. ATF.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:03:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:05:12 AM EST by BB]
Short answer; no and yes.

IBTL
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:05:12 AM EST
It is harder to do than "just filing a pin."

If you filed on anything you would get an improperly working firecontrol system. You'd be getting slam fires. Eventually one will go off before the bolt is fully locked and the gun may blow up in your face.

To do it right you would need all the proper M16 peices and know just where in the receiver - within 0.0001" or less - to drill the hole to pin in the auto sear.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:07:24 AM EST
Jeeze the guy was just trying to figure out what the truth was on the mis-information given to him by someone at work. Instead of acting all high and mighty why not just answer his question.

Back in the day filing the pin would create a dangerous condition called a slam-fire. The AR has since been modified so that isn't possible.

The other conversions require swapping out parts and modifying the receiver.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:07:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:08:30 AM EST by Specop_007]

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:
It is harder to do than "just filing a pin."

If you filed on anything you would get an improperly working firecontrol system. You'd be getting slam fires. Eventually one will go off before the bolt is fully locked and the gun may blow up in your face.

To do it right you would need all the proper M16 peices and know just where in the receiver - within 0.0001" or less - to drill the hole to pin in the auto sear.



Thats ALL I wanted to know.

To everyone else, i *specifically* stated I DONT want detailed info, I DONT want diagrams and quite frankly I wouldnt EVER convert any of my guns. Jail is not a place I want to be.
I just want to be able to tell the knuckleheads at work that No, its far more then doing a little filing or yes, all it does is take a little filing.

Edit
Hell, I dont even want to know WHAT to file if thats all it takes!
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:07:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:10:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:12:12 AM EST by Specop_007]

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
As you know, to "covert" an AR to full auto is a Federal crime. To provide information on how do commit such a felony is not wise to do. Suffice as to say, to perminantly convert an AR to full auto requires some skill. To jerry-rig an AR to fire full auto without all the necessary parts is dangerous. I would simply tell your friends it is not a simple procedure. No AR has ever converted itself so I doens't happen by accident and that to go step by step with them on how to commit a felony is not advisable.

PS. I only responded to this thread due to you large post count. This type of question is often asked by visiting trolls and kids.

Regards,
Gary



Jesus..... I have 500 posts already?!..... Whoa.... Must....back....away.....

Also, since my question has been answered if the Mods feel the need to delete the topic to remain PC thats fine by me. I dont want to get anyone in any trouble or anything, and the information given is far and enough good enough for me.
Thanks all.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:20:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:22:50 AM EST by LTCetme]
All I know is that it can be done and you should not try it. Its these little basement exparaments that are going to get cought and spark the next-genneration semi auto ban.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but DON'T DO THIS!!!

oh and IBTL.

JIM

Edited to add: I just read your post were you said that you weren't going to do this anyway so my appoligies....
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:30:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:35:02 AM EST
I know of a man who did it in my community. He also played with silencers. He is now finishing up two years in a federal prison. Nice enough fellow but he pissed off the wife and she was smart enough to look up the number to the BATF. They take that shit serious.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:37:04 AM EST
Tell them, no, you cannot convert an AR-15 to full auto by filing on anything.

Tell them the internal parts are made to prevent them from being converted to full auto parts, and would have to be replaced. But those parts are very difficult to obtain, only sold if you have the proper licensing for a legal full auto weapon.

Possessing the internal parts would constitute an illegal machine gun under the law.

Tell them the receiver itself is designed so that it would take machine work to allow it to take the auto parts, and such machining itself would be a felony, too. Such machining would be obvious upon close inspection.

There is no such "pin that you file to make it full auto" in an AR-15.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:49:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 4:51:09 AM EST by natez]
A Type 07 Special Occupational Tax manufacturer's license; or

A Drop-in Auto Sear (DIAS) registered pursusant to the National Firearms Act on a Form 4 (transferrable); or

A Lightning Link registered pursusant to the National Firearms Act on a Form 4 (transferrable).

ARs have undergone a series of modifications to make the actions lock up if modifications are made to them in an attempt to make them fire full auto. While they CAN be made to fire in an automatic mode, anything but a professionally-done, LEGAL conversion is probably going to make the weapon FA using some version or untimed automatic fire, which is dangerous to the user (not to mention the 10 years in a federal "pound-you-in-the-a**-prison" and 100K fine, not to mention state charges).

1970s and earlier ARs are easier (1960s ARs had most of the same fire-control parts as the M16), but those are mostly collector's items, these days, and you would be committing the additional sin of blasphemy to tamper with one of those weapons.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 4:59:55 AM EST
The origin of this persistent rumor (easy to convert AR-15 to full auto) is from the fact that many National Guard M16's, which WERE full auto, had a sheet metal device that sandwiched between the grip and receiver. This piece had a tab which extended up and prevented the selector from rotating to full auto position. It was common knowledge that the tab could be broken off to enable the M16 to go to full auto.

But that was an M16, not an AR-15.

So, these "full auto experts" did not know the difference between their Nat Guard M16, and civilian AR-15's.

"I was in the National Guard, they taught me how to convert a semi auto to a full auto."

And everyone would stand there in awe of his expertise. It must be true, he was in the guard.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:02:02 AM EST
What the nice guys here are trying to explain here that just talking about converting a semi to full is a felony!! The feds call it consperacy to comitt. There are quite a few folks in federal prision on just such a consperacy charge without doing the actual deed of conversion.
So as you can see this is a touchy subject, best left in the wilderness.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:05:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:
To do it right you would need all the proper M16 peices and know just where in the receiver - within 0.0001" or less - to drill the hole to pin in the auto sear.



Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:07:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.


This post should have been locked on arrival.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:10:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By crowboy:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.


This post should have been locked on arrival.



Yeah, because instead I should go around like an idiot and tell all my gun ban supporting coworkers those evil black rifles can be made into full auto baby killers with a simple 5 minute file job.

God forbid the spread of common sense right? Hell, the Dumbocrats do it, no reason for you not to.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:22:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 5:24:50 AM EST by crowboy]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By crowboy:
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.


This post should have been locked on arrival.



Yeah, because instead I should go around like an idiot and tell all my gun ban supporting coworkers those evil black rifles can be made into full auto baby killers with a simple 5 minute file job.
I do not know where you got all your posts in such a short time but with over 500 posts here, even as a Newbie you ought to know better than to post a FA how to question on this site and you ought to know how to respond to anti's with out this kind of no no question. This site is the Premier weapons site on the net and we are held to high standards so please keep that in mind
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:29:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By crowboy:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By crowboy:
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.


This post should have been locked on arrival.



Yeah, because instead I should go around like an idiot and tell all my gun ban supporting coworkers those evil black rifles can be made into full auto baby killers with a simple 5 minute file job.
I do not know where you got all your posts in such a short time but with over 500 posts here, even as a Newbie you ought to know better than to post a FA how to question on this site and you ought to know how to respond to anti's with out this kind of no no question. This site is the Premier weapons site on the net and we are held to high standards so please keep that in mind



Hello McFly. READ the thread before posting. I've said MULTIPLE times I DO NOT, let me repeat that for the reading impaired, DO NOT want a detailed how to, any diagrams or other accurate information. I want GENERAL, again, a repeat, GENERAL information as to the differences between the two. Is it a simply extra material on a pin (Hence filing) or is it a complete redesign to prevent simple modification.
THATS ALL I WANTED. You people are acting like I want a fucking AR Conversion for Dummies guide posted.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:36:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:37:11 AM EST

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:49:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 5:51:11 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Hello McFly. READ the thread before posting. I've said MULTIPLE times I DO NOT, let me repeat that for the reading impaired, DO NOT want a detailed how to, any diagrams or other accurate information. I want GENERAL, again, a repeat, GENERAL information as to the differences between the two. Is it a simply extra material on a pin (Hence filing) or is it a complete redesign to prevent simple modification.
THATS ALL I WANTED. You people are acting like I want a fucking AR Conversion for Dummies guide posted.




No need to get all riled up - think about what you are saying.

You might very well just be asking so you can correctly inform coworkers - but someone else who actually WANTED to know, could post a similar story, or something about an arguemnt with a "friend of his" or something - and try to get some info about an illegal FA conversion. I understand that you said you didn't want specifics or diagrams, but people are always a little touchy about the topic around here, because of its obvious illegality and the potential threat to the site.

So don't be surprised or pissed off when people get a little irritated at posts like this. Regardless of what you SAY (after all, it is the anonymous internet - and you just arrived on the site last month) the REALITY is that the thread still flirts with things that violate the CC.


(I completely agree with your point, btw - that it is important to be able to educate the ignorant, so a discussion or FAQ about this is valuable. I'm just saying you need to also try to see it from the perspective of the site)


ETA: That's not a bad idea- maybe we could have an FAQ like Tory's Ammo thread, that could address some of the myths about AR-15s - or maybe even firearm myths altogether (a lot of them certainly cropped up around the AWB expiration) and there were numerous threads about how irritating it was.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:49:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 6:53:02 AM EST by crowboy]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By crowboy:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By crowboy:
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.


This post should have been locked on arrival.



Yeah, because instead I should go around like an idiot and tell all my gun ban supporting coworkers those evil black rifles can be made into full auto baby killers with a simple 5 minute file job.
I do not know where you got all your posts in such a short time but with over 500 posts here, even as a Newbie you ought to know better than to post a FA how to question on this site and you ought to know how to respond to anti's with out this kind of no no question. This site is the Premier weapons site on the net and we are held to high standards so please keep that in mind



Hello McFly. READ the thread before posting. I've said MULTIPLE times I DO NOT, let me repeat that for the reading impaired, DO NOT want a detailed how to, any diagrams or other accurate information. I want GENERAL, again, a repeat, GENERAL information as to the differences between the two. Is it a simply extra material on a pin (Hence filing) or is it a complete redesign to prevent simple modification.
THATS ALL I WANTED. You people are acting like I want a fucking AR Conversion for Dummies guide posted.


No one is acting like your doing anything, we are trying to tell you that there are better ways to find out how to handle anti's than a FA how to question and that this site will not tolerate FA questions. I also believe you will find that civility and respect will take you farther on our site than an agressive attitude will. ( I will let the McFly comment slide )



Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:50:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 6:06:59 AM EST by KL2001]
Here is my question about this topic...

Having any ONE of the M16 parts and an AR15 includes intent to manufacture, right?

now, some of these parts are not very much different. how are newbies to AR's supposed to avoid comitting a felony without information? Remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse.


EDIT: I found the legal info in the articles section.
This site is too big, makes it easy to get lost. Now, does anyone know where the bathrooms are?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 5:59:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:00:07 AM EST
why's it gotta get so ugly around here so often? maybe this thread should be deleted...
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:03:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By GREYGHOSTt:
What the nice guys here are trying to explain here that just talking about converting a semi to full is a felony!! The feds call it consperacy to comitt. There are quite a few folks in federal prision on just such a consperacy charge without doing the actual deed of conversion.



Oh Brother! What a dumbass thing to say.
There is a bazillion page thread running somewhere around here about who you would have fought for in the Civil War. I suppose everyone who is saying they would have fought for the South are being rounded up as we speak for advocating the violent overthrow of the government? Check out the next gun show you go to. There will be tables of books and CD/DVDs showing detailed instructions on how to convert/build anything. Information is not illegal. What you do with it is.

The owners of ARFCOM don't want detailed instructions on how to do this posted here not because it would be illegal to do so. Do a google search. The instructions are posted everywhere. They don't want them here for fear of litigation if some nut wiped out a bus load of nuns using instructions found here. They also don't want the bad PR from the antis.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:06:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Hello McFly. READ the thread before posting. I've said MULTIPLE times I DO NOT, let me repeat that for the reading impaired, DO NOT want a detailed how to, any diagrams or other accurate information. I want GENERAL, again, a repeat, GENERAL information as to the differences between the two. Is it a simply extra material on a pin (Hence filing) or is it a complete redesign to prevent simple modification.
THATS ALL I WANTED. You people are acting like I want a fucking AR Conversion for Dummies guide posted.




No need to get all riled up - think about what you are saying.

You might very well just be asking so you can correctly inform coworkers - but someone else who actually WANTED to know, could post a similar story, or something about an arguemnt with a "friend of his" or something - and try to get some info about an illegal FA conversion. I understand that you said you didn't want specifics or diagrams, but people are always a little touchy about the topic around here, because of its obvious illegality and the potential threat to the site.

So don't be surprised or pissed off when people get a little irritated at posts like this. Regardless of what you SAY (after all, it is the anonymous internet - and you just arrived on the site last month) the REALITY is that the thread still flirts with things that violate the CC.


(I completely agree with your point, btw - that it is important to be able to educate the ignorant, so a discussion or FAQ about this is valuable. I'm just saying you need to also try to see it from the perspective of the site)


ETA: That's not a bad idea- maybe we could have an FAQ like Tory's Ammo thread, that could address some of the myths about AR-15s - or maybe even firearm myths altogether (a lot of them certainly cropped up around the AWB expiration) and there were numerous threads about how irritating it was.



Fair enough, I can understand the "toeing of the Law" as it were. Its just some people have come off rather hostile or demeaning for what I tried to make a broad, general question. I even stated many times to keep it broad and unspecific. But after reading half of the replies that were a bit negative I kinda got tired of it.
Oh well, lets both have a beer and call it a day.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:11:15 AM EST
Wow! Somehow a lot of sand got in the mangina's around here!

Simple answer to a simple question...


Q: What does it take to make an AR into a FA (full auto) weapon?

A: An act of Congress.


Any other questions???
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:13:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:
Wow! Somehow a lot of sand got in the mangina's around here!

Simple answer to a simple question...


Q: What does it take to make an AR into a FA (full auto) weapon?

A: An act of Congress.


Any other questions???



Or $16,000 and some registration paperwork?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:17:57 AM EST
Looks to me like what's needed to convert an AR into a FA is a damn good lawyer to keep your ass out of prison.

I've always been happy taking my shots one at a time.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:18:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:21:26 AM EST
I had a similar discussion with somebody at the rifle range around the opening of rifle deer season. He used to be a Marine and turning an AR15 into a machine gun was something you learned during the first week of boot camp.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:25:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
This thread makes me uncomfortable.



Would you like to cuddle?
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:26:20 AM EST
Tell your anti-gun buddies it is too complicated
for the average bear to understand.
Bushmaster had a chart showing the diff. in the parts
if you wanna go look.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:34:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
The origin of this persistent rumor (easy to convert AR-15 to full auto) is from the fact that many National Guard M16's, which WERE full auto, had a sheet metal device that sandwiched between the grip and receiver. This piece had a tab which extended up and prevented the selector from rotating to full auto position. It was common knowledge that the tab could be broken off to enable the M16 to go to full auto.

But that was an M16, not an AR-15.

So, these "full auto experts" did not know the difference between their Nat Guard M16, and civilian AR-15's.

"I was in the National Guard, they taught me how to convert a semi auto to a full auto."

And everyone would stand there in awe of his expertise. It must be true, he was in the guard.





That's interesting. I experienced something similar in the national guard in Denmark - where we were issued HK G3's - they came with a green selector that only allowed semi-auto, and a black selector that allowed semi and full. It was easy to look at the selectors and see how the full-auto selector was only slightly different from the semi-auto one, and to believe that a semi HK-91 could be converted by simply "filing" (or otherwise modifying) the selector. In reality, I assume that (like the AR) the entire trigger pack on a HK G3 is different from a semi-auto HK-91.

Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:35:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 7:05:40 AM EST by Tweak]
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:38:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:40:49 AM EST
It's easy to convert a SuperSoaker to FS (full spray). We do it all the time here in CA to piss off Feinstein and Boxer.

CW
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:42:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By fizassist:

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:
To do it right you would need all the proper M16 peices and know just where in the receiver - within 0.0001" or less - to drill the hole to pin in the auto sear.








Ooops.

I meant "thousands of an inch" and put in "ten thousands of an inch"

hehehe
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:42:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
It's easy to convert a SuperSoaker to FS (full spray). We do it all the time here in CA to piss off Feinstein and Boxer.

CW



More squirt per thrust??

I need to teach my wife that trick.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:42:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.



This is a popular rumor going around I think .. I got into a row with a jackass at school who insisted we shouldn't have "assault weapons" because they're "easy to convert to full-auto." "You just have to file something down, man!!"


Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:44:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
The image of a "gangbanger" converting a rifle at a kitchen table with a screwdriver and a pocket knife and a file is a load of crap. Perhaps you could just tell them to not believe everything they hear.




Well ... unless he's working on an open-bolt MAC ... but we will assume those have all been taken out of circulation by now
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:45:19 AM EST
www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/

Official ar15.com approved information.
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 6:59:27 AM EST
Well remember that the Marine would have used M16's with semi and burst, and no full auto. On that note, yes I did learn at boot camp how to turn my semi M16 into full auto with just a piece of string. That way theres no evidence or damage to the weapon. Just take the string off. :D
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:02:20 AM EST
Willingness to do ten years felony time!!
Link Posted: 9/25/2004 7:07:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/25/2004 7:09:00 AM EST by thebeekeeper1]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Not looking for specifics or diagrams, just a general info as it were. A guy at worked asked me if you could just convert them by filing a pin, and I wasnt sure what to say. Is it a very minor change, such as filing a peice, or is it a completely redesigned fire control system?
Unfortunately the people I work with are by and large gun banning advocates, so I try to give them good info whenever I can and educate them, but not sure on the illegal conversions issue.




<Removed. Did you actually read the thread?>
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