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Posted: 10/22/2010 7:06:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2010 7:14:01 PM EDT by Uberjager]
I'm talking about humanity as a species, not arfcom.

What do you think of humans? Are we man or animals? Or something in between? Before the Christians and Jews on here mention God made us, remember he made animals too, and we were made in his image not his likeness.(Gen 1:27) And before the Atheists and Agnostics mention evolution and how we're animals, read the rest of the post.

Think of the animalistic side of humans, you are all well aware of rape, incest, thoughtless murder, emotions and instincts dominating actions with no conscious thought, et cetera. That sure would be a bestial behavior, but what about the other side of things?

What about the greater things? Could an animal make something as delicate, precise, and beautiful as this?

Could an animal purposefully control the vibration of strings, the airflow through an ornate crafted pipe, vibrate wood with its breath, and control the sound resonating throughout it's oral cavity to create something as wonderful as this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhFJ2gO0lFw
Would an animal be able to express its thoughts well enough so that it could be shared to millions of other ones for thousands of years, like Homer?

Would an animal be able to create a thing that would make it go faster than the speed of sound?

So now, what do you think? (All the questions were meant to be rhetorical, except for the last one. However feel free to answer them.)

The night is young, and we have much time to ponder this.
Link Posted: 10/22/2010 7:54:36 PM EDT
This could be good.
Link Posted: 10/23/2010 6:11:42 AM EDT
Obviously consciousness, (Divine Spark) separate us, however, pretty sure animals dream.

We only perceive what our 5 senses convert to electrical energy and I am 100% certain there is more outside the box of that perception.


In the spirit of the OP, what if an animal were to have Gnosis, what then would they become?

An ape might stares at it's reflection in the water but does it conceptualize it's existence?

...
Link Posted: 10/23/2010 12:49:14 PM EDT
We’re animals that have advanced to the point where we can communicate complex, abstract ideas, control and influence our environment and still retain the ability to kill each other for trivial reasons.

When I consider all the unlikely events that led to our present state, I wonder how common “intelligence” is in this galaxy.
I wonder if we’re the only form of “intelligent” life.

I hope not, but so far, that’s the way it looks.
Link Posted: 10/24/2010 10:07:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Japle:
We’re animals that have advanced to the point where we can communicate complex, abstract ideas, control and influence our environment and still retain the ability to kill each other for trivial reasons.

When I consider all the unlikely events that led to our present state, I wonder how common “intelligence” is in this galaxy.
I wonder if we’re the only form of “intelligent” life.

I hope not, but so far, that’s the way it looks.


I've thought alot about this also. Micho Kaku syas that if they're are other intelligent beings out there that they would almost cetrianly be much more advanced than humans. But one would have to be the most advanced, why not humans.

We are the most advanced "animal" ever on earth out of millions of different species, why can't we be the most advanced species in the galaxy?
But to the OP, dogs are "smarter" than fish, dolphins are smarter than goldfish, and something has to be on top-humans
Link Posted: 10/24/2010 10:15:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2010 10:16:41 AM EDT by fatalerror113]
Well, biologically speaking you are one of the following:

A: Bacteria
B: Protozoa
C: Fungi
D: Plant
E: Animal

The only one with a definition that fits is E.

It does not matter if you believe humans are a special animal, with souls, created in god's image 6000 years ago, who will live on and on forever after death or not; on a strictly biological level the human body is indistinguishable from an animal body.

By the way, This was just as true before the theory of evolution was ever even thought of.
Link Posted: 10/24/2010 10:24:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot:
Obviously consciousness, (Divine Spark) separate us, however, pretty sure animals dream.

We only perceive what our 5 senses convert to electrical energy and I am 100% certain there is more outside the box of that perception.


In the spirit of the OP, what if an animal were to have Gnosis, what then would they become?

An ape might stares at it's reflection in the water but does it conceptualize it's existence?

...

Thats the problem isn't it? We have no idea what animals think. Sure there are plenty of "smart" animals, but what do they know about their own existence? We as people have a tendency to project our emotions, thoughts, and ideas onto animals. This can be seen around the world on a daily basis with people and their pets.

If you observe pet owners and pets, you'll generally see the animal reacting to stimuli and the owner labeling it as "wants", "desires", "thoughts" and "feelings".

Since its almost impossible to test for, its a question that will endure for ages.
Link Posted: 10/24/2010 10:47:40 AM EDT
Some people are human, and some are animals.

Link Posted: 10/24/2010 6:48:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot:
Obviously consciousness, (Divine Spark) separate us, however, pretty sure animals dream.

We only perceive what our 5 senses convert to electrical energy and I am 100% certain there is more outside the box of that perception.


In the spirit of the OP, what if an animal were to have Gnosis, what then would they become?

An ape might stares at it's reflection in the water but does it conceptualize it's existence?

...


My Black Lab barks at himself in the mirror.
Link Posted: 10/24/2010 8:50:08 PM EDT
I am a person of Faith and I have a ton of questions regarding what we are. For instance, in Genesis when Cane killed Abel, he was sent out of the Garden to the "Land of Nod" and took a "Concubine" as his wife. What and where was Nod? What was a concubine? Finally, if Nod existed with other "people" that means they came before those who inhabited the garden.
Link Posted: 10/25/2010 12:55:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2010 12:11:39 PM EDT by SAE]
Originally Posted By HoustonGirl:
I am a person of Faith and I have a ton of questions regarding what we are. For instance, in Genesis when Cane killed Abel, he was sent out of the Garden to the "Land of Nod" and took a "Concubine" as his wife. What and where was Nod? What was a concubine? Finally, if Nod existed with other "people" that means they came before those who inhabited the garden.


Well, as a person of,''Faith,'' i personally feel that these are some good questions to try and get a handle on.

The Bible sometimes is not very specific about certain places that existed from long ago exept to see certain places named a particular way, and then latter on in Scripture named some other way, for example a place or town being named again by another group of people because they conquered it by force, or merely by settling there as an unoccupied area, or what have you.

It is also interesting that in Scripture you will find that certain individuals for various reasons are named for a particular place because they either founded it by various means, or you can also find people who have been named either fully by a town or city, or in part, because a particular place was the hometown of their physical birth place.

The Bible does not say that Adam was God's only directly created being but was a fore-runner for all men. So this relelation in itself leads me to believe that all living humans after,'' Adam'', with the help of,''Eve,'' all came through the physical act of pro-creation between the two because,''Eve,'' was named so,''because she is the mother of all living.''

We also know that Adam lived for quite a long time as i believe that Eve did also.

In Genesis Chapter five, verses three through five state that:''Adam was one hundred and thirty years old when he fathered a child in his own likness according to his image, and named him Seth, and he fathered sons and daughters. So Adam's life lasted nine-hundred and thirty years; then he(Adam) died.

So, could Adam and Eve have lived long enough to have made enough of their own offspring in order for Cain, who God designated through His will to become a ,''restless wander on the earth,'' to encounter other people as they would have at least been near relatives to him themselves?

Well, i would say yes but not very many.

I think an important clue according to reconcilling this to people that were indeed known to Cain, might come from Genesis Chapter four, verses thirteen and fourteen:''But Cain answered the LORD,'My punishment is too great to bear! Since you are banishing me today fron the soil, I must hide myself from Your presence and become a restless wander on the earth, whoever finds me will kill me.''

Now then, how did Cain know this as a fact? I would assume here that Cain, not being God who knows all things was strictly speaking to God here from how that that Cain, as a person had been speaking out, and thus acting out, in a particular fashon for some time had been acting out even before he slew his own brother Abel.

And that would be through a negative mindset first, and then with a bad attitude which resulted in extreme violence against his own brother Abel.

That is, enough to beat him to the point of death because of sin.

However, for the sake of aurgument that Cain was primarily speaking to God about a vengful and malicious act being wrought out on him in the same way he met judgement out ion his brother Abel from someone fairly close and fully known to Cain.

Maybe someone like his own father, future sibling, or even in an extreme case dying at the hands of his own mother by the use of a deadly weapon against him as a matter of human justice because of their own family loss?

Who knows but God?

It is possible here too though that when Cain moved away from his mother and father this,''Land of Nod,'' was probably just a few miles, in not kilometers, from where Cain had previously lived.

This place called Nod, could have been started into its own existance by Cain himself because the Bible is not clear concerning such. The,''concubine,'' that Cain did marry could have taken place over the next several hundred years also and been a full blood sister to Cain or another form of very close relative like a sister-aunt or something to that effect knowing that the Bible states that Adam and Eve latter after Eve concieved again and bore,''Seth,'' as a replacement for Abel,''had other sons and daughters'' after him.

And that replacement, or Seth was in fact the direct decendant of a man called,''Noah''(The Hebrew word translated,''Bring us relief,'' sounds like the name of Noah) who was begotten from a man named,''Lamech,'' only a dozen or so generations directly from Adam.

And so Noah brought relief for God and the existing men who would come after him in the original form of God's original blessing on man.

That is, until man found himself at odds with God again due to his rebellious ways concerning serving God once again.

In the sixth Chapter of Genesis before the flood however when mankind began to multiply on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons od God, or the spiritual seeds of fallen angels who had posessed human men through their own treachery towards God, saw that bthe daughters of men were beautiful, and they chose wives for themselves.

Now these offspring that came out of these demonically based relationships through people prouduced an particular type of desendand that was much different than the huumans who had been pro-created by humans previously.

This unique race of beings who were introduced then and through this ungodly means were known as the,''Nephilim,'' the fallen ones, or giants.

And giants they were.

It is at this point that God shortened the lives of humans because of this happening between demonized men and unwitting women through spiritual means and having much power over otherwise normal human beings as them having spiritual dominion over them to achieve a goal.

At that point God shortened the life span to about what it might be today for people under extreme circumstances.

About one hundred and twenty years.

Now, the Bible calls these particular kinds of supernaturally generated offspring,''the powerful men of old, the famous men.'' Now the Bible does not call these,''giants' by this particular description because God was happy and pleased about as to designate them as,''powerful, or ''famous.''

Actually here at this time concerning them, the Bible says that man's wickedness was so widespread of the earth that man's every scheme and thought had to do with evil all the time in which these,''Nephilim,'' were mainly in control in most every place in the known world at that time where they had some level of influence.

In many places directly and otherwise.

So it was at that point that God stated as a matter of record that He was sorry or repented that He had made man.

But not as a creation.

But by who, in, and through the way that mankind was beginning to be thoroughly manipulated by.

And that would be the Devil, or Satan for the express purpose of denying Jesus Christ a spiritually undefiled physical route of a virgin birth, as Satan knew God, or Immanuel, that is, God with us would come.

That is, by Satan thoroughly corrupting all flesh by the way of demonization through this means concerning everyone and everybody.

All flesh.

Now, Cain, could have been speaking to God about being killed by one of these also.

The Nephilim.

Thanks,

SAE



Link Posted: 10/25/2010 5:26:04 PM EDT
SAE, Thanks for your reply. I guess I never took my search for an answer much further than my inital question. Regarding the names in the Bible, I've found it a little, okay alot confusing at times. Sarai for example, was later Sarah and Abram became Abraham. What was God's reasoning for these changes?
Link Posted: 10/25/2010 6:26:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot:
Obviously consciousness, (Divine Spark) separate us, however, pretty sure animals dream.

We only perceive what our 5 senses convert to electrical energy and I am 100% certain there is more outside the box of that perception.


In the spirit of the OP, what if an animal were to have Gnosis, what then would they become?

An ape might stares at it's reflection in the water but does it conceptualize it's existence?

...


They would be something else entirely, I'm not sure what though.

It's very possible, some animals recognize themselves. I've heard of birds recogniizing their reflection, by pulling off stickers that zoologists put on them for the experement, where other ones will try to attack the mirror.
Link Posted: 10/26/2010 5:34:40 AM EDT
Let the walls of text begin!!!!!

Before I begin I want to say I do love my fellow man and although I may not agree with everyone’s opinion I certainly am tolerant of it. I believe everyone has a right to believe it whatever works best for that individual unless their faith leads them to hurt others or infringe on others rights. I dislike the KKK as much as Muslim extremists. I feel these people are ignorant and need to be educated. To quote Socrates, “Ignorance is the only true evil and knowledge the only true good"

I believe what the evidence shows us. Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. A billion years after its formation single cellular life began evolving. So it took about 3.5 billion years for us to crawl of out the atomic goop into something sentient. Now is this remarkable? Even amazing? Of course!

There is evidence for the theory of evolution. One fallible man made book is what most people of faith cling to.

The evidence which could possibly break your faith on this would be sentient life in the universe doing the similar 'soul' required activities. Playing instruments, doing science, crafting, ect. Now will we ever observe other life out there and will it be intelligent, are greater questions. I believe that it is possible that other intelligent life is out there. There are billions of galaxies and such a small number of stars need planets made of the right stuff in order for the conditions of life to be met. Now will we ever observe them? I cannot really say because there are such vast distances separating us. The other thing that doesn't help us is because we are so far away essentially we are looking more into the past the farther we look in the universe due to the theory of relativity.

I think part of the reason we have seen such little life in our galaxy is because we are so far away and it is difficult to even get an idea of what certain planets are made of. I don't think the question is: is there other life out there? but will we ever see it. There are billions of galaxies spread across a seemingly infinite space.

To put life on earth in perspective let me give you my favorite Carl Sagan Quote:

hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PaleBlueDot.jpg
(Image for Carl Sagan quote, replace xx with tt)
"From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here, that's home, that's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known."

If you wish to address the philosophical questions of is there a God I think you are better off approaching it from a lesser known scientific gaps. I think most faiths are quite arrogant to assume so much of their deity. They should be more humble in their piety.

Personally I am agnostic, but I do love a good discussion on religion and do think faith/religion is something instilled within the minds of men.
Link Posted: 10/27/2010 2:40:21 PM EDT
An animal is a living creature of the kingdom animalia, which includes as subsections mammals, primates, and yes, humans. Now, there's no doubt that we're different from other animals. We are self aware sentient beings, the only ones (to our knowledge) to have ever existed. Yes, an animal could do all of those things you mentioned, provided it had the cognitive ability (and education, and talent, etc) so required.
Link Posted: 10/28/2010 3:04:05 PM EDT
From dreams we awake.

While awake but simple we become aware of conscious.

While aware of our conscious we discover ourselves.

When we truly discover self we find our creator.

Link Posted: 10/28/2010 4:16:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot:
From dreams we awake.

While awake but simple we become aware of conscious.

While aware of our conscious we discover ourselves.

When we truly discover self we find our creator.



Yep.

Link Posted: 10/29/2010 10:53:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2010 1:27:45 PM EDT by SAE]
Originally Posted By HoustonGirl:
SAE, Thanks for your reply. I guess I never took my search for an answer much further than my inital question. Regarding the names in the Bible, I've found it a little, okay alot confusing at times. Sarai for example, was later Sarah and Abram became Abraham. What was God's reasoning for these changes?


You are quite welcome HoustonGirl, anytime!

Now, why did God re-name certain people.Well i'm sure there are many more reasons than i could possibly come up with,but let's see what we do know from the Bible concerning this issue.

I believe that the Bible makes reference to this happening about people getting either new names through God, or what I would call modifications to an already existing name all through the Bible, as even those of us who are saved will recieve new names at one point after entering the Kingdom of God as ''Overcomers.''

Now, people, mostly Christian folks, used to often name their own children after Biblical charicters as they still do somewhat today. Sometimes a Biblical name was used as a first or middle name as a hope of God's goodwill towards the one being named such, as ''David,'' for King David or''Jacob,'' after Abraham's own grandson who latter was re-named by God Himself, as his grandfather ''Abram'' was re-named,'' Abraham'' as a covenant partner with God, and Jacob became ''Israel'' as a sign and designation concerning Jacob as being also a continuing covenant partner with God, and also as a matter of a continuing and perpetual covenant between God and Abraham through Abraham's seed or linage and so forth.


Now it is through this particular physical and spiritual linage which made it possible for Abraham's continuing or everlasting,''Seed,'' not ''seeds'' to produce a physical linage so that the Messiah,that is Jesus Christ, or the Messiah,(Immanuel,God in the flesh with or among us) to come forth into physical existance into the world by these means.

So what is in a name?

Well, according to the Bible quite a great deal.

The Bible states that ''Abram'' meaning ''father'' was re-named by God through a covenant relationship with God to this new up-graded and superior name of ''Abraham,'' meaning ''Father of Many Nations,'' or as to ''The Father is Exalted.''

Now as for Sarai, her original name meant,''Betrothed to a royal house,'' but in Genesis chapter 17 verse15-16 it reads:''God said to Abraham,'As for your wife Sarai,do not call her Sarai, for Sarah will be her name. I will bless her;indeed,I will give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she will produce nations;KINGS OF PEOPLES WILL COME AFTER HER.' ''

And if you are a Christian believer now, born-again, evidenced through the mingling of the water and God's Blood, by a Roman spear being thrust into Jesus' side after His physical death upon the cross at Calvary, then that would be you!

A king and a priest in God's kingdom!

Forever.

So then,''Sarai'' became ''Sarah'' after God's blessing on her was completed as God's own intention toward her was wrought upon her as most all other Biblical charicters were as to a blessing by God, or by a physical father as a blessing to his offspring or hiers as was done concerning the establishment of a family or clan position as well as for reasons of those particular children knowing what their inheritance would be at one point.

Now many people in many places in the world still continue to bless their own children verbally in this particular kind of way.

It is here too that this man called ''Abraham'' is also considered to be the patriarch of most all of the Arab speaking peoples, as he too fathered a son named,''Ishmael,'' through his wife Sarah's own maid-servant, that with Sarah's blessing became also a wife to Abraham to bear her a child for Abraham by.

This name,''Ishmael '' means,''God Hears,'' concerning the oppression suffered from this Egyptian woman named,''Hagar'' who bore Abraham this man child because Sarah did not believe God concerning her having a son through her personally, because at that time she was well advanced in years.

Now, this male child,''Ishmael'' was the fore-runner as stated before of most all the Arab speaking peoples today.

God did bless this child with all of the covenant promises that God blessed Abraham and Sarah's own son Issac with.

However though, God did not bless this line through Sarah's bond-servant Hagar with an inheritance to the land which today is the nation of Israel, and also parts of the surrounding territories which surround Israel currently.

Thus the friction and turmoil of the Middle East that we see as we do today, and has been to some degree or another for hundreds and thousands of years now.

So, Sarai became Sarah which literally means,''Princess'' because God said that a royal physical and spiritual line would proceed from her.

Now, why it is that God designated her only as a ''princess'' and not as a ''Queen'' is probably left only for one to speculate about.

But, it is true according to the Scriptures that Abraham and Sarah were half-brother and sister, one to another, who shared a common father who's name was Terah, who's father's name was Nahor.

But still in all, if we are to examine the deeper meanings of Biblical names in general, then one should understand why God put such a priority on re-naming certain Biblical charicters back then in the first place, as to part of a plan to help people shed the curses of sin and eternal separation from God.

And that reason is the bringing about of a superior Name and all of the things that goes along with It for us as corrupted, thus limited, human beings.

In the New Testament gospel according to Mark in Chapter 16 verses15-18 It reads:''Then He(Jesus) said to then,'Go into all the world and preach the gospel(The Good News about Himself), to the whole creation.Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who beleve:In My Name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;they will pick up snakes; if they should drink anything deadly, it will never harm them;they will lay hands of the sick, and they will recover.''

So then, what is in a name?

Well according to that particular Name, which is above all other names, and all of the other people that God re-named over time as to physically get God into this wretched world in the form of Jesus Christ, in order to set those free who would accept His most gracious and powerful offer of eternal salvation to all of us, I would have to say quite a lot of importance has to do with all of this.

And probably more than we could ever personally fathom.

For now, but some of us will fully understand latter on and shown.

Soon now.

Thanks,

SAE

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